The (Holy Trinity) tables have turned!

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

It seems as if in The Forge, all of the most useful characters from the base game have become the least useful and the least useful the most useful. Here's why:

Wickerbottom, Wolfgang, WX-78, the holy trinity of DST, supposedly, right? Well, in The Forge, they are one of the least useful characters in there. For one, books are situational for the most part. Maxwell was quite useful in the base game, perhaps not top tier, but still, quite useful. Now, just like Wickerbottom, the books + staves perk just isn't enough. Books, in and of themselves are usually not of as much in comparison to what other characters could do.

Staves are good, but Willow and Wilson already take up the two staves; I've found them to be the best characters to have for respective stave usage, Wilson in particular, since you'll be at a huge advantage with him as the healer. I played as him, giving by default x3 more health, plus extra 20% health to others from a garland crown as well as two 10% recharge for the ability! This led my not-so-skilled team all the way to the final boss, which we probably would have beaten if one of our players didn't exit mid-battle.

Willow, she can be both the mage and the runner, I've loved to fight as her with the lava/fire staff, while kiting a boarilla around the arena. It's a bit intense as well, knowing that not every dodge is going to be successful due to a small ****-up. Love the intensity this gives, something I really think should be more of in the base DST game... with a much higher focus on survival and "everything's out to kill you" instead of the other way round >.>

Of the three main tanks; Wolfgang, Wigfrid and WX, it seems as if Wigfrid is actually a bit superior. Bonus for others due to 5 consecutive hits towards an enemy, and the slicing spear attack that apparently can keep the boarior at his knees seems to be a pretty great perk. Albeit, other characters can use a better version of the spear too, it seems, I've not found the hammer attacks too useful. I'm not sure if the stuns actually deal much or any damage, at least I've not seen the points pop up, but overall, it doesn't feel to be that powerful. In any regard, Wolfgang getting buff only when his health is low seems to be a counter to his perk for the most part, and so, it doesn't really provide for a a huge bonus (may be if he started out with not having full health and if at full health he could go buff for brief while). Moreover, Wicker + Wolfgang and Wicker + WX-78 is no longer a cmobo. You can't, say, read the rock book as Wicker and then hammer smash as WX to deal even more damage to the opponents, it just cancels out completely. If it did, then I'd probably see more use in book users, but atm, I don't really, other than a temporary stun that can be kind of replicated in a sense with other means anyway (healing area = enemies fall asleep, one player just kiting away a bunch to let others deal with one).

What's more, those who use books only seem to be able to use that and staves, resulting in them just using books, and as a result not doing anything for the most part, because meleeing with books while you're waiting for a perk to change is kind of a suicide mission, especially later on.

And Wes, holy crap, he's the best runner there is with the "hard to un-aggroe" ability and some other useful perks in that regard. Wes, is now officially: OP pls nerf

Winona though... well, she's... vaguely useful? Might be wrong, but her perk seems to reflect her perks in base DST.

I haven't explored the perks of all characters fully yet, but this is what my tier list would be based on my own experience, observation and checking their perks before starting 

1) Wilson, Wes

2) Wigfrid, Willow, Woodie

3) Wendy, WX-78

4) Wolfgang, Webber, Winona

5) Maxwell, Wickerbottom

 

I'm curious as to what others' thoughts are and what kinds of things could may be change to make them a bit more balanced in usefulness for the next two weeks.

[ButterStuffed]

Maxwell and Wickerbottom are bottom tier?? Whaat?

Wickerbottom Maxwell combo to petrify in of itself makes them really good.

[orian34]

Lol, the holy trinity of uselessness you called is the holy trinity of the best ones , good job

So, My take on it now that I've hit level 40 :

Wilson

He's great in a starter team, but as you play with people who don't die every round, his passive becomes quite useless. Not liking him that much.

Wes

The second best runner, sadly, woodie is just way better.

Wigfrid

She wants to be melee, but WX and Wolfgang are better tanks, and Webber is a better ranged DPS. I don't really find her that good.

Edit update : After winning with her, I found her pretty useful as a melee support that can take the aggro if the tank/s are in troubles. In fact, you won't be fighting in melee that much but just circling around trying to see when and where is the best to take the aggro or use your spear special. She becomes really useful  against the boss since her spear jump makes the boss rage and gives more time.(also, woodie can get the other spear for better stunlocking). So she's a good support, but not vital.

Willow

A good fire staff wielder if you're not confident to play maxwell. Else...

Woodie

The best runner, he can take the aggro and keep it easily with the axe throw. He can even convert to a tank later. Great asset to a team.

Wendy

Haven't played much, but what does she really do good?

WX-78

Great tank despite a lower health since his shock passive enables stunlock and more time against attacks, stops the turtles spin. Especially against a spree from the boss.

Wolfgang

Good health, good damage, good passive, give him the best armor and you'll have the best tank. Just don't let him die and you'll be good.

Webber

He is the best DPS ranged. Avoid enemies in melee and you'll just destroy them.

Winona

There's controversy to know which one is better between her and Wickerbottom. But she's a great healer, easily. The passive makes her able to cast the heal spell quite often, which is needed against the boss.

Edit update : 

She's not the best healer, she's the best carry. Her amazing bonus to cast the sleep spell quickly(and that spell even heals a bit  ) makes her really good against the final fight. I managed to carry a win with smart casting of the sleep spell.

Maxwell

He is the best magic DPS by far. Just be careful to have a good player for him since he dies easily.

Wickerbottom

A really good healer. Her charged spell makes a big difference. Which makes her my favorite healer and character to play.

 

My dream team would be Healerbottom, Maxwell fire staff, WX and wolfgang tank, Webber dart DPS and Woodie runner.

[Sinister_Fang]

42 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Now, just like Wickerbottom, the books + staves perk just isn't enough.

You've never seen a good Wickerbottom juggle the healing staff and petrifying tome then. That's why, in my opinion, she makes the best healer. Crowd control for days... (any potent healing too).

She's also really good with the fire staff too. I've seen her hit nearly 400 damage with it's special. I'd say she's still top tier due to her excelling in both dps and support roles. Heck, juggling the fire and healing staff works pretty well too.

[watermelen671]

42 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

1) Wilson, Wes

2) Wigfrid, Willow, Woodie

3) Wendy, WX-78

4) Wolfgang, Webber, Winona

5) Maxwell, Wickerbottom

Waaaaaaat?
I wholeheartedly agree with Wilson being top tier, but I've got some stuff I wanna pick through.

I'll just go down the list, in no particular order:

Wilson: Every team needs one. Half the res time, and twice the health restored? He's the best necromancer!

Wes: Sure, Wes is a good runner, but I wouldn't say he's the best. That that title belongs to...

Woodie: Best runner. His Lucy special attack has THE highest agro priority on all mobs, so it's THE best for grabbing and holding Boarilla and Boarrior's attention. And accidental cross fire doesn't result in the team being fubberknucked.

Winona: Could just be a bias, but I think she's the best healer. With a default +10% faster cooldown, that means with the crystal tiara and silk wood armor, she get's +30% faster cooldown, which means she can spawn healing circles more than any other character.

Wendy: Wendy by herself is fine, it's Abigail that screws everything over, there's no way of controlling her or stopping her from aggroing mobs unnecessarily, which can end up with all the damn Metal Koopas beyblading, or GFB suddenly losing interest in Woodie, killing Abigail, then focusing their attention on you. So in the end more harm done than good.

Webber: Useless, moving on.

WX: Has an electric shock that both stuns and hurts mobs (30 dmg), which is perfect for beefy mobs like the Metal Koopas and Boarrambe and GFB. He's a great tank due to his shock perk that prevents stunlock.

Willow: Good fire mage, and great with fire darts. Nuff said.

Wicker: Good mage, with her spell buffs she's perfect for restraining ads with the stone book, and then raining Hellfire on the main priority.

Waxwell: Same as wicker, but with 75hp. Good but collapses under the pressure of a well aimed fart.

Both Wolfgang and Wigfrid are interchangeable, so I suppose they'd rank the same.
(Although with Wig giving a damage buff she's slightly better, but still. :3)

Just now, Sinister_Fang said:

You've never seen a good Wickerbottom juggle the healing staff and petrifying tome then. That's why, in my opinion, she makes the best healer. Crowd control for days... (any potent healing too).

She's also really good with the fire staff too. I've seen her hit nearly 400 damage with it's special. I'd say she's still top tier due to her excelling in both dps and support roles. Heck, juggling the fire and healing staff works pretty well too.

>.>

This is why we all have our roles pre-planned before the match starts.

Cuz if someone tries to take the healing from me, they're getting smacked with a damn flip-flop. 

[Sinister_Fang]

2 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

Waxwell: Same as wicker, but with 75hp. Good but collapses under the pressure of a well aimed fart.

That almost had me on the floor laughing

[Dekay]

Three best in my book would probably be:

1. Wickerbottom - healer and most important to team comp, she can CC any group of mobs using just her book and the healing staff and her charged healing helps tons against the GFB

2. Woody - best runner because he can pull instant aggro, switches to heavy tank against GFB to keep him in the spawn across from Pugna.

3. WX - fav tank because he gets SO many free stuns with his electric ability.

 

i don’t put Wilson in the top 3 because with good team communication nobody should die.

[ShadowDuelist]

I'm sure we must have numbers by now of who is a better fire mage, if wicker of maxwell.

Personally I am getting the most damage dealt achievement as Maxwell much more often than as wicker, but thats probably because its not as simple to reliably hit 5 enemies with cataclysm as soon as I have the spell and buff. Max just keeps getting duelists over and over, and cataclysm is a bonus.

[Atkvin]

4 hours ago, orian34 said:

Webber

He is the best DPS ranged.

I heard Webber got a buff but I never found out what, why is he best DPS ranged? Is it thanks to the spiders?

[orian34]

3 hours ago, Atkvin said:

I heard Webber got a buff but I never found out what, why is he best DPS ranged? Is it thanks to the spiders?

Well, haven't investigated that much, but I was easily dealing 35+ damage per dart with bonus equipments. And you can shoot these darts fast. The spiders increase even more the damage total dealt. Thats why.

(Also, I might have a bias since I got the golden speedrun achievement with him)

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

6 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I'm sure we must have numbers by now of who is a better fire mage, if wicker of maxwell.

Personally I am getting the most damage dealt achievement as Maxwell much more often than as wicker, but thats probably because its not as simple to reliably hit 5 enemies with cataclysm as soon as I have the spell and buff. Max just keeps getting duelists over and over, and cataclysm is a bonus.

WILLOW! If you give anyone but Willow the firestaff, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Being a mage AND the runner? That is what Willow can be, as she gets +10% fire damage. With the amount of hits you'll do with just normal damage and with the lava splash also getting the same due to it being a fire weapon, she's easily the best fire mage. And if you give her the right tools, she can be a runner too at the same time. I've found her to be pretty good with both. True, you're more likely to lose aggro, but so long as everyone's in the center and you're handling a boarilla/boarior okay without getting hit on the outskirts, you should be able to handle the situation pretty well.

10 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

Winona: Could just be a bias, but I think she's the best healer. With a default +10% faster cooldown, that means with the crystal tiara and silk wood armor, she get's +30% faster cooldown, which means she can spawn healing circles more than any other character.

Okay, so what's better:

Winona: 30% faster cooldown, normal heal speed, plus extra 20%, normal resurrection speed?

Or

Wilson: 20% faster cooldown, x3 the normal heal speed, plus extra 20%, x2 resurrection speed?

It's no contest, Wilson is the best healer and resurrector to have! He could lead a team of newbs all the way to the final boss (like I did), or, if you have at least one good spear user, even kill the boarior with relative ease!

10 hours ago, orian34 said:

WX-78

Great tank despite a lower health since his shock passive enables stunlock and more time against attacks, stops the turtles spin. Especially against a spree from the boss.

Okay, I've never really understood thig, so... You don't really need to stun a bunch of mobs at the same time, because you'll be focusing on attacking one at a time anyway. So if the electric shock deals no damage, what gives? Wigfrid's spear slice DOES deal damage however, can allow her to act more like a kiter than a tank, meaning she won't need to heal as much (I know from experience), she can also use darts for ranged if melee isn't an option (e.g. in the case of a scorpion catastrophe) and again, she gives buffs to other players. How is she not superior to WX and Wolfgang as a result?

[orian34]

The shock from WX does deal damage tho? And pretty good damage

[MondayNight]

1) runner is very important, and in that role I would place Woodie (can insta-aggro via ax throwing, has a good HP pool, and can dub as tanker later on);

2) healer and, bonus, "pause" enemies with petrify - Wickerbottom;

3) mass damage dealer, bonus if on large number of mobs at a time - for that role Maxwell (another bonus: the "pause" of enemies via petrify).

Those 3 would be the named "Holy Trinity" in my opinion.

Tankers are needful, the standard duo of Wolf and WX (in any combination; also Winona, as she can dub as healer via hers passive in tandem with Wicker for extra team spice); likewise another adjacent ranged damage dealer via darts, probably Webber being the best pick out of him, Willow and Wendy (later on, Abi can be a nuisance, waking up GFB). My 2 cents on the matter.

[watermelen671]

Man...I really need a good team of players...

It'd probably make my Forging experience better. 

[TheKingDedede]

3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

So if the electric shock deals no damage, what gives?

WX's shock can do up to 50 points of damage. Where did you get this information?

3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Okay, so what's better:

Winona: 30% faster cooldown, normal heal speed, plus extra 20%, normal resurrection speed?

Or

Wilson: 20% faster cooldown, x3 the normal heal speed, plus extra 20%, x2 resurrection speed?

You shouldn't put too many roles on one person. It's nice to try and spread them out between the individual players and try coordinating between them. Also, how does Wilson have x3 the heal speed?

If anything, Wickerbottom should be the healer, thanks to her perk supercharging the healing effect. Wicker could also be the person that handles the Infernal Staff, but not both roles at once.

[orian34]

Updated my earlier post and gotta say, a good winona can carry a game. I went from the only one alive against the final phase of the boss(two times in the same fight) to full team back and beat him. If you manage to catch the boss by casting the spell in smart position, it gives the time to save your teammates that can then distract the boss while you continue reviving until you cast the sleep spell again and revive the whole team. It's a squeeze, but damn that worked well. Good use of the stun abilities from your team is required to survive of course.(we even won with a wendy!)

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

58 minutes ago, TheKingDedede said:

WX's shock can do up to 50 points of damage. Where did you get this information?

You shouldn't put too many roles on one person. It's nice to try and spread them out between the individual players and try coordinating between them. Also, how does Wilson have x3 the heal speed?

If anything, Wickerbottom should be the healer, thanks to her perk supercharging the healing effect. Wicker could also be the person that handles the Infernal Staff, but not both roles at once.

Well, the damage didn't seem to be popping up from electric hits on the enemies, so I assumed it's just a stun and that's all.

You say I shouldn't put too many roles on one player, yet you then go to say that Wicker is best at tackling two roles at once... what's this for cognitive dissonance? As for the x3 healing factor, it's what I read from his description. If that's not the case, then I might have miss-read something.

[Zeklo]

55 minutes ago, orian34 said:

(we even won with a wendy!)

Have something against little girls do ya?

[Michi01]

6 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

WILLOW! If you give anyone but Willow the firestaff, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. Being a mage AND the runner? That is what Willow can be, as she gets +10% fire damage. With the amount of hits you'll do with just normal damage and with the lava splash also getting the same due to it being a fire weapon, she's easily the best fire mage. And if you give her the right tools, she can be a runner too at the same time.

Giving the fire staff to the runner seems like a bigger disadvantage. First, the high aoe damage of the meteor attack is extremely useful against groups of weaker enemies, which the runner won't be dealing with and second, giving the runner a high damage weapon in general is bad because they'll want to be doing as little damage as possible to prevent the boarilla or boarrior from going into their undodgeable phases before the rest of the team is ready (and without the staff they'll take even longer).

[Dekay]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

You say I shouldn't put too many roles on one player, yet you then go to say that Wicker is best at tackling two roles at once... what's this for cognitive dissonance? As for the x3 healing factor, it's what I read from his description. If that's not the case, then I might have miss-read something.

When talking about juggling synergies you should realize that not all are created equal. Healing and petrifying with Wicker is very efficient compared to a healing Wilson who needs to run all over the map to revive other players. This results in inconsistent and poorly placed heals.

Also, giving the firestaff to a runner? Just no. Doing so demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of its strengths.

[watermelen671]

37 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Have something against little girls do ya?

Yeah, well you're the exception, not the norm.

Now get off my lawn. 

[TheKingDedede]

12 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

You say I shouldn't put too many roles on one player, yet you then go to say that Wicker is best at tackling two roles at once... what's this for cognitive dissonance? As for the x3 healing factor, it's what I read from his description. If that's not the case, then I might have miss-read something.

Just a suggestion, not a fact. I've noticed that while 2 roles on Wicker may be a bit much, but both healing and the petrification tome involve grouping the enemies together so that they can temporarily put out of commission (Putting them to sleep with the healing circle and using the petrification tome on them.). Plus, a Wicker is still encouraged to attack as a healer to kick in her perk. If you have Wilson as the healer and he dies, you just lost yourself the person who can revive the quickest and the healer in one fell swoop, which is why I suggest not giving him both roles.

The x3 healing factor is from his revival perk, not from what he can do with the staff. Revive someone and they get three times the amount of health from being revived than any other character who doesn't have the perk. I suggest editing your post so as to not mislead other users.

[Sinister_Fang]

7 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

WILLOW! If you give anyone but Willow the firestaff, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Try using Maxwell. That 10% is nothing compared to the amount of damage Maxwell can do with his shadow duelists. Not to mention that the duelists also give a little bit of stun on the enemy. As well as having crowd control during earlier waves. I'd only recommend using Willow over Maxwell if you're not very good at staying out of danger. Gotta play it extra safe with ol' Max...

[orian34]

1 minute ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Try using Maxwell. That 10% is nothing compared to the amount of damage Maxwell can do with his shadow duelists. Not to mention that the duelists also give a little bit of stun on the enemy. As well as having crowd control during earlier waves. I'd only recommend using Willow over Maxwell if you're not very good at staying out of danger. Gotta play it extra safe with ol' Max...

Pretty much what I said too  Also, the duelists are great at stunlocking the boss

[Dekay]

It seems the wording of Wilson’s perks misleads a lot of players to believe they apply to healing in addition to reviving when they actually don’t.