Should Klei fix the constant water output temperature... thing?

[Rainbowdesign]

9 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

The only reason that has made any sense is that that is how the game was created and what Klei intends.

My impression is that they try to make the game as realistic as possible. Water cooling down by 60 degree just because you filter them with sand is not realistic.

[badgamer123]

1 hour ago, Rainbowdesign said:

My impression is that they try to make the game as realistic as possible. Water cooling down by 60 degree just because you filter them with sand is not realistic.

the game atm was toward more game play focus come first then realistic physic second
stuff out of my head: water hover on oil(actually water hover(lighter) almost anything in the game.
carbon actually burn @ 800+ in real life,many organic stuff is indestructible(those flower 9700 C melt point....
you can delete mass =magma>igneous rock>dig>heat a bit>magma>igneous rock>dig=25% mass left
guy intake 1000g of oxygen but only breath 200g of Co2

thus it seem the game more focus on game play 
(I personally not against those thing ,since there was a lot mod out there to change it)

[Rainbowdesign]

2 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

you can delete mass =magma>igneous rock>dig>heat a bit>magma>igneous rock>dig=25% mass left

Strong dislike should be fixed in my opinion too also any kind of temperature transition massloss should be changed! I would even say any massloss should be fixed.

2 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

guy intake 1000g of oxygen but only breath 200g of Co2

Quite a bit unrealistic i think it should rather be more Co2 weight.

 

2 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

carbon actually burn @ 800+ in real life,many organic stuff is indestructible(those flower 9700 C melt point....

Its a bit strange too also dislike but i dont think this is important to fix.

[badgamer123]

you can actually heat up a large place with tons of rock and dig it....out 50% heat loss....using those new tile build thing clamp temp lol more heat loss

[natanstarke]

On 24/11/2018 at 7:56 PM, impyre said:

There's no good way of tackling this problem. You have virtually limitless energy being pumped into a confined space (through geysers and oil reservoirs). You *will* overheat eventually unless you have a way of destroying excess thermal energy. And since the law of conservation applies, there's literally no way to do this that makes any sense. I think the steam turbine is a good one, but the problem is that the output temp is much too high for condensation to be easy. Still, it works as a way of destroying thermal energy even though it does cost energy to run it (unless you use door pumps). In any case, I think I agree with leaving it in place for the moment. Constant temp outputs are nice in mid-late game, they make efficiency much easier to attain... but in early game it's almost a necessity. I was still hunting for every wheezewort I could find. (Not that those make any sense irl either lol). I guess we have to choose when to apply "common sense" and "physics" very carefully. They want the game to be intuitive, but challenging and fun. Sometimes that means using physics, and sometimes it means breaking physics.... it's truly an art form.

Fixed output is totally fine and do not need any overthinking its a game and its suppose to give the most fun in the first place. Also wheeze worts make total sense like really, plants do all types of strange stuff all the times with gases minerals and even into super hot places. 

Another thing in the early game the sieves actually makes the base hotter, cause water is at 26 normally and the bam +14 each cleaning but its not super annoying or dragging the player down you just need to cool it a little with a wort eventually.

This fixed outputs makes for such cool industrial combos to produce and manage heat ( the most not fun part of the game is the excess heat for me at least )

Even i hating heat so much i think its ok for the most part just have a lotttttttttt of suffering to make volcanos and other stuff work because of heat and it kinda falls into ( you always do thid exact setup to cool the volc).

[GrindThisGame]

I have no opinion if it should stay or go.... but at least tell players in the UI that the machine has a fixed output at 40C or 70C etc so they know what they are dealing with. Otherwise they will wonder why their base is overheating and will have to resort to wiki's etc to figure things out.

[Zarquan]

On 1/30/2019 at 6:08 PM, yoakenashi said:

Makes game to easy? The game is as easy as you make it, ever try on hard and accepting very duplicant up to 70 and launch a rocket within 201 cycles?

Unrealistic? The game has creatures that breathe carbon dioxide and poop crude oil!

Difficult for first tile players to understand? How many games did you play before you understood enough not to kill everyone?

In my opinion there is no good reason to fix it and no good reason to leave it as is. The only reason that has made any sense is that that is how the game was created and what Klei intends.

Should you share your charged opinion on the suggestion forum? Absolutely! That’s what it’s here for.

People said the same thing about the drip cooling bug and the borg cube.  The game shouldn't be balanced around these arcane rules that are non-intuitive.  Why does the water sieve change the temperature to 40 C and where is that described?  I personally don't care about how realistic the game is, but I do care about whether it is internally consistent. 

Slicksters are a different story, as clicking on them will tell you what they are for very quickly and converting CO2 to crude oil is their only purpose.

[The Plum Gate]

I probably already said this already, but the fixed temperature outputs are non intuitive when not conveyed to the player until after the fact, either via repercussions or observation.

I remember my first build of a natural gas generator, everything was going smoothly until it started leaking polluted water on the floor. That little externality wasn't clearly conveyed - I should have known that it would leak on the floor, it had no liquid output line, go figure... It didn't tell me about the fixed output temperature of the CO2, that was another issue, and so on...

I harped on somewhere in some thread about acceptable deltas - a cold machine should have a cold output or at least an agreeable thermal delta for outputs vs inputs relative to machine ambient.

[Morse]

A little guide for people who do not want to wait.

1. Go to GitHub and download dnSpy https://github.com/0xd4d/dnSpy
2. Launch as administrator (for some reason it is needed) and open the ONI assembly (OxygenNotIncluded_Data/Managed/Assembly-CSarp.dll)
3. Expand the assembly list, and in the list of classes (located under "{ } -") find the class WaterPurifierConfig
4. Find the method ConfigureBuildingTemplate, right-click on it and choose "edit method (C#)"
5. Find the OutputElement definitions and change apply_input_temperature to true
6. Press "Compile" and then "Save All", yes to rewrite.

Congratulations! Not only you made your game better, but you also became a co0l haxXor in the process

[Yunru]

4 hours ago, Morse said:

A little guide for people who do not want to wait.

1. Go to GitHub and download dnSpy https://github.com/0xd4d/dnSpy
2. Launch as administrator (for some reason it is needed) and open the ONI assembly (OxygenNotIncluded_Data/Managed/Assembly-CSarp.dll)
3. Expand the assembly list, and in the list of classes (located under "{ } -") find the class WaterPurifierConfig
4. Find the method ConfigureBuildingTemplate, right-click on it and choose "edit method (C#)"
5. Find the OutputElement definitions and change apply_input_temperature to true
6. Press "Compile" and then "Save All", yes to rewrite.

Congratulations! Not only you made your game better, but you also became a co0l haxXor in the process

But you didn't make the game better?

[Morse]

2 hours ago, Yunru said:

But you didn't make the game better?

Well, for me, it became better. And at least another 44 people agree with me

[lunazone]

On 1/30/2019 at 5:08 PM, yoakenashi said:

Makes game to easy? The game is as easy as you make it, ever try on hard and accepting very duplicant up to 70 and launch a rocket within 201 cycles?

Unrealistic? The game has creatures that breathe carbon dioxide and poop crude oil!

Difficult for first tile players to understand? How many games did you play before you understood enough not to kill everyone?

In my opinion there is no good reason to fix it and no good reason to leave it as is. The only reason that has made any sense is that that is how the game was created and what Klei intends.

Should you share your charged opinion on the suggestion forum? Absolutely! That’s what it’s here for.

I don't really think that this is the one thing keeping new players floating, to be honest, there's plenty of cooling methods that don't have anything to do with a water filter that cools water for some reason. I understand what you mean when you say that the realism thing but I think it's better for the game to be consistent with its in-game realism, the creatures are biologically designed in lore to be bizarre like that, the simulation of physics in the game is fairly realistic though so I think the fact that a few buildings just straight up delete heat with that being the purpose isn't a good way to teach newer players to play the game. The AETN is fine because that's its purpose, you delete heat for a fee of hydrogen and the fact that you cannot build it makes it fair, you can just build dozens of water sieves and delete tonnes of K by adding sand, which makes absolutely no sense for the in-game context since all the other buildings have a bonus and a harmful output. The water sieve allows you to cool your base with little to no risk (I, E don't feed your bristles large volumes of sieve water) Buildings that I can think of that have heat-related downsides are smelteries, aqua-tuners, and thermoregulators but the water sieve throws this logic out of the window and just deletes heat and doesn't transfer any of it anywhere, it just gets wiped from existence.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: sorry for the massive word dump I was just kind of spewing out my thoughts, sorry if it seemed a bit too aggressive though

[D.L.S.]

On 07.02.2019 at 2:52 PM, Morse said:

Find the OutputElement definitions and change apply_input_temperature to true

If its so easy to change, the question is: why devs not fix it yet?

"consumed Filter 1kg", "output ToxicSand 0.2kg" - mass deletion detected!

[Morse]

52 minutes ago, D.L.S. said:

If its so easy to change, the question is: why devs not fix it yet?

It's was never a question of complexity. It is obviously a conscious decision, together with eletrolyzer and whatever other buildings we have with fixed temperature output.

[Sasza22]

The main problem is the sieve. Other fixed ouptut machines are either pretty obvious (oil refinery distills the oil so has to heat it up anyway) or aren`t producing enough mass for it to matter. The sieve is cleaning huge amounts of water that has a potntial ot remove tons of heat and seemingly uses sand to do it so doesn`t heat up the water past boiling point (doesn`t remove germs either).

A new player won`t really notice most machines having a fixed temp output as it won`t matter overall. But the sieve will matter and it will be really unintuitional for them that it works this way. This is the main reason it keeps comming back.

[yoakenashi]

Granted Morse showed us how to modify the code ourselves, but I think what would be really worthwhile would be for Klei to create a “input temperature branch” following the QoL mark 2 release. This way those interested can do some pre-testing and provide feedback on how a same out temperature as input  temperature world would actually play out.

[gredalusiam]

On 2/9/2019 at 7:24 AM, Sasza22 said:

The main problem is the sieve. Other fixed ouptut machines are either pretty obvious (oil refinery distills the oil so has to heat it up anyway) or aren`t producing enough mass for it to matter. The sieve is cleaning huge amounts of water that has a potntial ot remove tons of heat and seemingly uses sand to do it so doesn`t heat up the water past boiling point (doesn`t remove germs either).

A new player won`t really notice most machines having a fixed temp output as it won`t matter overall. But the sieve will matter and it will be really unintuitional for them that it works this way. This is the main reason it keeps comming back.

I agree with this. The electrolizers for instance don't bother me. But the sieve (and to a much lesser extent, the carbon skimmer) do.

I think we could keep the idea of a fixed temperature output and just give it a more purposeful in-universe explanation. For example: sieve still puts out at 40 degrees, but it has a new name/description to justify it (like the AETN, which is unrealistic but is obviously sci-fi in a way that the sieve isn't).

 

Alternatively, the sieve temperature is variable, but we have a new machine that only works on polluted water or a few other liquids.

Alternatively again, the hydrofan or something else is buffed to make cooling more practical mid-game. Lots of workarounds.

[WeSaidMeh]

It is a nice "workaround" for dealing with temperatures, but it is "unrealistic" and makes the game inconsistent.

I think it should be changed, but only when rebalancing temperature management at the same time. E.g. make the aquatuner/regulator use less energy, and raise the overheat temperature. Or make a device that cools/heats the input to a specific temperature with energy consumption based on the heat difference (instead of building complicated cooling loops with limited throughput).

[D.L.S.]

On 14.02.2019 at 10:42 PM, gredalusiam said:

 the hydrofan or something else is buffed to make cooling more practical mid-game.

Hydrofan require rebalance anyway. right now it stupidly inefficient.

Just compare in terms of killing heat hydrofan vs Wheezewort vs AETN vs steam turbine, no balance at all.

[Tonyroid]

No. Not unless they introduce new temperature control systems, and a plain heat-eating machine would be such a not-fun kludge.

These temperatures appear to be intentionally set to values that frustrate gameplay (for fun), and prevent everything heating up forever, and provide for skillful manupulation to the players benefit. I don't think it's a bug, I think it's by design.

There are two ways in the game to permanently shed heat. Steam turbines, and these constant temperature outputs. Steam turbines are awful. (I guess you could heat things up and then vent them to space, too.)

[dekeonus]

I'm ok with the constant temp output, but will adapt if needed. It will be troublesome for early mid game and challenging for new players if the output is tied to the input temp.

However, I'm more put off by the fact that dupes can shower / wash off food poisoning germs by using a sink / shower that is filled with clean water infested by food poisoning. I'd much rather see that addressed before the constant temperature output devices.

[FollowStrong]

No need to be fixed. This is a part of game mechanic. Otherwise, they should fix incoming heat from other buildings.