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GlassArrow

Healing Guide/Stats

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Zeklo    17936
2 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

So now that I have shown you that you were wrong with your own numbers, can we talk about something else.

You are in a thread about healing numbers. If you are not comfortable with your arguments being challenged you shouldn't be on this thread let alone forums. 

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MasterWolf    237
21 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

And the eternal debate rages on... even though it doesn't really matter who you pick unless you're trying for the leaderboards...

It actually does, I keep showing people That Winona is better in most situations, but people keep making threads, getting angry and letting their toxicity out. I love the feeling of having people say after 5 minutes of arguing with me about it, that "OMG, I did not know Winona could heal this much/ that fast". Unless you rapid fire every opportunity, you will not get 55.556% efficiency throughout the game. I don't care if toxic people like @Zeklo that does not have the intelligence to make an actual argument, keep insulting and demeaning people because they can't accept that they are wrong. Winona IS better in most situations.

I have yet to be proven wrong to what I said on November 7th. "Wicker has the potential to be better".

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Zeklo    17936
20 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I don't care if toxic people like @Zeklo that does not have the intelligence to make an actual argument, keep insulting and demeaning people because they can't accept that they are wrong. Winona IS better in most situations.

I haven't once insulted you, on the contrary you have several times. You keep trying to put forth your "arguments" and then shut down the conversation so you can't be proven wrong. I don't care what your argument is. I don't care if it's correct or not, but this is a public discussion forum; you don't get to shut down arguments to preserve your own perceived ideals. 

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JoeW    28799

Please keep posts constructive, on topic and without personal insults or attacks. Thank you. 

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Sinister_Fang    9057
13 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

It actually does, I keep showing people That Winona is better in most situations, but people keep making threads, getting angry and letting their toxicity out. I love the feeling of having people say after 5 minutes of arguing with me about it, that "OMG, I did not know Winona could heal this much/ that fast". Unless you rapid fire every opportunity, you will not get 55.556% efficiency throughout the game. I don't care if toxic people like @Zeklo that does not have the intelligence to make an actual argument, keep insulting and demeaning people because they can't accept that they are wrong. Winona IS better in most situations.

I have yet to be proven wrong to what I said on November 7th. "Wicker has the potential to be better".

I think the leaderboards might show something in terms of the Wicker vs. Winona debate. Statistically, it looks like Wicker is significantly better. I'll admit I am on the side of Wicker, but that doesn't mean I'm against Winona. Honestly, I don't really care that much. As long as someone is using a character with perks that fit into the role they're playing, you can get a win. Heck, there's joke teams of using 6 of the same character getting wins. A lot of the time efficiency kills fun anyway. 

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adaxe    4
7 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

Sigh, I literally just showed you with your own numbers that it is not true what you said.

864-792 = 72
THIS MEANS THAT YOU NEED TO AMPED MINIMUM 8/9 of YOUR HEALS TO HEAL BETTER THAN WINONA IN YOUR SCENARIO. 7/8 *100%= 87.5%. YOU NEED TO HAVE A 87.5% EFFICIENCY TO BE BETTER. MOST PEOPLE CANNOT DO THIS...........

But here, lets do the pro/ big boy on campus efficiency of juggling everything like a robot:

20% cd (tiara plus silk armor)= 19.2s cooldown. 180/19.2= 9.375

108 hp with amped + garland + tiara : 9 heals:  972 hp healed over 180s
972 - 792 = 180
108-72= 36
180/36= 5
108*4=432,   72*5= 360,  432+360= 792


This means that if you are juggling the tiara and garland with Wicker, you NEED to amped at least 5/9 heals to be better than Winona in her optimum scenario. 5/9*100%= 55.556% efficiency. This is higher than amping every other heal (since this would be 50%). So now that I have shown you that you were wrong with your own numbers, can we talk about something else.

Your math seems not very good imo.

 

In 362.88 seconds, a lazy wicker without juggling: 16.8 heals. suppose she succesful make x amps. healing amount: 108*x+72*(16.8-x)=1209.6+36x.

A winona prefectly juggling: 21.6 heals. 72*21.6=1555.2.

x need to be >= 9.6 to make a wicker without juggling better then a winona with prefect juggling.

9.6/16.8=57.14%.

you NEED to amped at least 57.14% heals to be better than Winona.

 

what if they both perfectly juggle?

Then in 322.56 seconds, a wicker: 16.8 heals. suppose she succesful make x amps. healing amount: 108*x+72*(16.8-x)=1209.6+36x.

A winona: 19.2 heals. 72*19.2=1382.4.

x need to be >= 4.8 to make a wicker better then a wiona.

4.8/16.8=28.57%.

you NEED to amped at least 28.57% heals to be better than Winona.

 

I really don't know how you get that 87.5%.

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GlassArrow    107
7 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

Sigh, I literally just showed you with your own numbers that it is not true what you said.

And I wish that you would clearly read what I say. If you had then you would know I was using my "typical healing" chart as reference and am using my overall healing per second for my calculations. I use my overall health per second because it includes the downtime of the heal while just looking at how many heals they can get in 3 minutes will not be accurately comparable due to their different cooldown times. A good example of this is from your calculations, in 3 minutes a typical Wicker gets 8.33 heals and a perfect Winona gets 10.71 heals, but in your calculations you rounded so Wicker gets 8 and Winona gets 11 which skews your numbers in favor of Winona. 

Using my "typical" chart and using my overall healing per second this is what you get:

Winona: garland + silk, 3.75 Overall H/s * 180 = 675 total healing

Wicker: garland + silk,  3.33 Overall H/s * 180 = 600 total healing

675 - 600 = 75, Wicker heals an additional 36 health every amp with this gear. 75/36 = 2.08 amps out of 8.33 to match Winona. (24.97%)

I used these numbers because this is what the average player would be using. They would not be juggling helms like a "pro." Here are the numbers for a Winona cycling helms against the same Wicker above using my overall health per second:

Perfect Winona: garland/tiara + silk, 4.286 Overall H/s * 180 = 771 total healing

771 - 600 = 171 / 36 = 4.75 out of 8.33 heals need to be amped to match a perfect Winona (57.02%)

Here's a Perfect Wicker for reference:

Perfect Wicker: garland/tiara + silk, 3.75 Overall H/s * 180 = 675 total healing

771 - 675 = 96 / 36 = 2.67 out of 9.375 heals need to be amped to match a perfect Winona (28.48%)

Keep in mind the values for cycling helms assumes you are instantly changing helms when you need them, which is not possible so Winonas actual healing value here is lower. This just shows a perfect scenario. As I stated before, Wicker has 20 seconds to get an amp and only needs to attack for 12 seconds to get it with no animation canceling. Leaving 8 seconds to deal with grabbing her petrification book and petrifying mobs. That is more than enough time to amp every heal and if not then she is AT LEAST amping every other. In that case, sure Winona would heal more, but it is very likely there are more amps going out than that.

7 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

So now that I have shown you that you were wrong with your own numbers, can we talk about something else.

@MasterWolfStop taking what I say out of context and claiming my calculations are incorrect because they aren't matching what you say. If they don't match then check my source instead and show me my numbers are wrong. Don't change my "source" and claim my numbers are wrong to shut down my points. If you find a mistake then tell me and I will fix it. This post was made to show the numbers for healing and "discuss" why one healer would be better than the other so why would we stop discussing that here.

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adaxe    4
21 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

Using your numbers:

You actually get 8.333 heals without juggling the tiara and garland (silk armor gives you 10% cd = a 21.6s cooldown. 180/21.6= 8.333)
Wicker:
90 hp with amped                   : 8 heals : 720 hp healed over 180s
108 hp with amped + garland : 8 heals:  864 hp healed over 180s

Winona:
72 hp with garland                  : 9 heals  : 648 hp healed over 180s
72 hp with tiara + garland       : 11 heals: 792 hp healed over 180s

So can we get on with it. I don't know why you keep arguing, I initially said that Wicker has the capability of being "the best healer".

The mistake you made here is omitting decimal.

In 3min, it's not 8 heals vs 11 heals, but 8.33 vs 10.71.

108*x + 72*(8.33-x) >= 72*10.71

the result is x >= 4.76.

4.76/8.33 =57.14%.

EXACTLY the same as my earlier conclusion:  a lazy wicker without juggling needs to amped at least 57.14% heals to be better than a prefectly juggling winona.

 

P.S. even if omit decimal (which we shouldn't), we still have 108*x + 72*(8-x) >= 72*11, so x>=6, and 6/8=75%. This incorrectly large percentage is still less then 87.5% as you claimed.

 

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Flexo    2

I want to point out that the metric "Healing per overall time" used in the opening post is not appropriate in many cases. Imagine a character or equipment with 100% cooldown reduction, so that you can just put down another healing circle whenever the last one vanishes. This would effectively make all mobs sleep infinitely and would make it very easy to achieve a victory. You could fight only one enemy the whole time, or even stop fighting and completely heal up, if someone's health is low.

A more appropriate metric therefore would be the healing dealt in relation to the time where no healing circle is present ("fighting time"). I only play with random people so I often have to deal with inexperienced players or tanks that think it is a good opportunity to smash enemies whenever they just become petrified. While not beeing so relevant for speedruns or experienced teams which cooperate well, the healing per fighting time seems like a better way to compare the healing abilities of different characters for average teams with random or new players.

Under the assumption of additive cooldown bonuses, 24 seconds base cooldown time, 2 seconds cast time and 10 seconds healing duration we get

Cooldown reduction      Fighting time
  0%                              16.0 s
10%                              13.6 s
20%                              11.2 s
30%                                8.8 s

If the proposed numbers of 60 health restored per healing cycle and 90 for amplified Wickerbottom are true, the healing per fighting time with the silken wood armor (+10% CDR) is as follows:

table.thumb.png.05b7283425906cd1fdcd915e8d48ca2f.png

This shows that an amplified Wickerbottom is superior to Winona, even more when considering that she additionally starts with the petrification book. On the other hand I recognize that Winona induces a slower but more safe play style and could be suited better for some cases, such as a new player as healer who might not know about Wickerbottoms amplification ability at all or doesn't use it for healing often.

Surprisingly equiping the Crystal Tiara is (a tiny bit) better than the Woven Garland in all cases, if the healer doesn't want to struggle with juggling between those two. However this only holds true only if there is no fighting while healing at all (which at least should be the case for the common tactics to fight the Boarrior).

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Starphire    39

Can we see the numbers on the amount of healing Winona could heal in 10 minutes vs. the amount of healing Wicker could heal in the same amount of time (both wearing the cooldown armour, and wicker with each heal being amped). Maybe vs. an other healing (Wilson for example) in the same time period?

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axxel    1140

Here's my opinion: 

Wicker is indeed the best healer in terms of healing dealt. Period.

However, this does not really regard the other aspect of other aspects of Wicker and other potencial healers. Wicker has still lower HP and is locked to staves and books. Winona, on the other, has the most max HP of all stave users, can switch to other weapons if healing is not important in some (earlier) rounds. Yes, this makes a difference between Wickerbottom and staff+dart users. But people may feel safer if the withe mage sticks to his/her role.

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