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How do you deal with electrolyzer heat?


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12 hours ago, Kabrute said:

I'm using a valve with a loop recycling 1g packets to filter the gasses, its called a mechanical filter was started by pvd, updated by saturnus and kasuha. 

Oh, I thought the term mechanical filter meant simply letting the hydrogen sort itself out above the oxygen in the room.  So with some care you manage to prime the system with the correct gasses, and once primed, the 1 g packets that keep looping around will only allow the same gas to merge into that section of pipe?  Neat.

 

5 hours ago, Carnis said:

I setup a central 4 wide shaft with 1 space Air, 1 ladder, 1 firepole, 1 tube.

How are dupes supposed to get off of the ladder and reach rooms on both sides of the shaft?  They can only jump over one space, and with a 4 wide, one side will be 2 wide.

 

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5 minutes ago, psusi said:

How are dupes supposed to get off of the ladder and reach rooms on both sides of the shaft?  They can only jump over one space, and with a 4 wide, one side will be 2 wide.

They can jump to the fire pole first. But I think he meant that there is no other side to jump to.

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4 hours ago, Saturnus said:

They can jump to the fire pole first. But I think he meant that there is no other side to jump to.

image.thumb.png.5c2d4a23734243323509978a087b3f29.png

The 4 wide corridors & shafts are the air conditioning, no pumps are needed. The middle O2 pump supplies oil biome suits.

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On 11/3/2018 at 10:08 AM, anosu said:

How do you deal with electrolyzer heat?

I pre-cool fresh water to between 40-60F, its a useful thing to have around, and use that to feed simplified self powered electrolyzer set ups.  the water that is being broken down is passed through a radiant pipe on its way to the electrolyzer.  presto! I get 80F air.

Sometimes I store unburned hydrogen for later use but lately I just burn it although as I learn more about the late game hydrogen rocket (looking at you Lifegrow lol) I may just switch back to storing it :)

 

I started with a setup I watched Cryptic Fox make and have tinkered a bit with it over time.

Snapshot-35.png

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3 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

I pre-cool fresh water to between 40-60F, its a useful thing to have around, and use that to feed simplified self powered electrolyzer set ups.  the water that is being broken down is passed through a radiant pipe on its way to the electrolyzer.  presto! I get 80F air.

That's kind of wasteful since there is no need to cool hydrogen if you are just going to burn it, and when the water is deleted by the electrolyzer, you get more heat deleted the hotter it is.  Having it only be 75 F means you wasted the energy it took to cool the water down to that temperature or, alternatively, are giving up the potential to delete extra heat and cool other things.  I run ~200 F water straight from the steam vent into the thing.

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1 minute ago, psusi said:

That's kind of wasteful since there is no need to cool hydrogen if you are just going to burn it, and when the water is deleted by the electrolyzer, you get more heat deleted the hotter it is.  Having it only be 75 F means you wasted the energy it took to cool the water down to that temperature or, alternatively, are giving up the potential to delete extra heat and cool other things.  I run ~200 F water straight from the steam vent into the thing.

Psst; The water starts off between 40 and 60 not 75; that is the output temp as it leaves the unit.

My goal with this setup is to have cool air for my dupes without needing wheezies or an AETN which are unpredicable.

I realized I was wasting metal on extra radiant pipes :) and stated paying more attention to how I put down the radiator.

I delete a ton of heat - I got lucky and have three steam geysers and all that water gets cooled before it goes into my base and the process ensures i'll be unlikely to run out of dirt for my drecko farm. I also realized that feeding chilled air to exosuits is stupid so started feeding geyser water straight to their source.

Since my goal is to keep the base cool enough its fine. Never said its optimal - just  wanted to share how I deal with electrolyzers and O2.  Will I adapt and modify this? hell yeah :)

 

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19 minutes ago, psusi said:

That's kind of wasteful since there is no need to cool hydrogen if you are just going to burn it

It's a method called precooling and it's incredibly clever/efficient. Pre-cool the air with radiant pipes, heating the  water inside them back up near 70C in the process. It's heat neutral and leaves mostly oxygen cooled to the temp of your water input.

Nice share, I hadn't thought of using precooling in this scenario.

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I've come up with a new way to dealing with heat.. although it requires space materials to make.. The Thermal Annihilator.

The LOX beast I built with it can suck up the heat output of 5 electrolysers and still is hungry for more. and with heat output I mean the heat between liquid O2 and the Electrolyser output.. all that heat x5 is sucked up by my little machine and it hungers for more as the steam turbines aren't running full throttle due to lack of heat.

Oh.. I forgot to mention.. it's also power positive.. so not only do I get tons of Hydrogen and (liquid) oxygen out of the deal, I also get about 500W of power.

 

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Just now, suicide commando said:

I've come up with a new way to dealing with heat.. although it requires space materials to make.

And therefore not relevant really. By the time you have the materials for that correcting small temperature imbalances have been trivial for a long time.

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Just now, Saturnus said:

And therefore not relevant really. By the time you have the materials for that correcting small temperature imbalances have been trivial for a long time.

The reason I built it wasn't for breathing O2, it was because I needed a source of LOX for my petrol rockets.. I'm currently exploring more of the various planets, and am in the process of building a 2nd rocket to get isoresin, so I can begin designing a LOH machine to see what is in the furthest reaches of space.

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10 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

without needing wheezies or an AETN which are unpredicable

Both Wheezeworts and the AETN are very predictable since they delete heat at a precise rate and both can be automated even to cool an area to an exact temperature. A WW can achieve -12kDTU/s and an AETN -80kDTU/s. But I applaud you not to use them since their mechanics are not only kind of boring but also weak.

They are convenient in some cases though. A single WW above an automated door is usually enough to balance the temperature in a drecko farm for example. A couple of them near a cool steam vent will make sure the steam condenses even after running hundreds of cycles. AETNs and WW arrays are nice for precooling. And they are strong enough to cool down electrolyzer O2 up to medium throughput.

Basically use them for the little things to have some quick&dirty way of dealing with things, where you don't want to spend a lot of time and ressources to just achieve a little bit of cooling.

22 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

I also realized that feeding chilled air to exosuits is stupid so started feeding geyser water straight to their source.

It isn't less or more stupid than cooling any O2. It will also get stored in your base until consumed, except if you insulate both the docks away from your base and the pipes that supply them.

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1 minute ago, clickrush said:

Both Wheezeworts and the AETN are very predictable since they delete heat at a precise rate and both can be automated even to cool an area to an exact temperature. A WW can achieve -12kDTU/s and an AETN -80kDTU/s. But I applaud you not to use them since their mechanics are not only kind of boring but also weak.

They are convenient in some cases though. A single WW above an automated door is usually enough to balance the temperature in a drecko farm for example. A couple of them near a cool steam vent will make sure the steam condenses even after running hundreds of cycles. AETNs and WW arrays are nice for precooling. And they are strong enough to cool down electrolyzer O2 up to medium throughput.

Basically use them for the little things to have some quick&dirty way of dealing with things, where you don't want to spend a lot of time and ressources to just achieve a little bit of cooling.

It isn't less or more stupid than cooling any O2. It will also get stored in your base until consumed, except if you insulate both the docks away from your base and the pipes that supply them.

Apologies.  I thought I was being complete but see I wasn't - i left out a word - availability.  They don't always drop in sufficient numbers or quickly enough.  As for AETN they are often too far away to bother with.

As for the Exodocks... I feel it is stupid because the temp is irrelevant to the dupes use, I hadn't considered the impacts of that temp on the temp of the docs themselves.  always more to take into account in this game, love it!

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2 hours ago, DaveSatx said:

Psst; The water starts off between 40 and 60 not 75; that is the output temp as it leaves the unit.

Yea... I didn't say otherwise.  I said that whatever heat is in the water is deleted when it is consumed by the electrolyzer.  That means the hotter the better.  If it's only 75 when it hits the electrolyzer then you're passing up a chance to delete a lot more heat.  And when you had to cool the water in the first place ( and move the heat elsewhere ) you now have more heat wherever you dumped it instead of deleting it, and more heat than you would if you weren't cooling the hydrogen too.

2 hours ago, DaveSatx said:

My goal with this setup is to have cool air for my dupes without needing wheezies or an AETN which are unpredicable.

I use the toilet loop to cool oxygen and burn the hydrogen hot.  No wheezies or AETN needed.

2 hours ago, DaveSatx said:

I delete a ton of heat - I got lucky and have three steam geysers and all that water gets cooled before it goes into my base and the process ensures i'll be unlikely to run out of dirt for my drecko farm. I also realized that feeding chilled air to exosuits is stupid so started feeding geyser water straight to their source.

How do you cool the steam?  However it is, there's no need to cool it any more than 200 F before feeding it to the elecrolyzer.

2 hours ago, avc15 said:

It's a method called precooling and it's incredibly clever/efficient. Pre-cool the air with radiant pipes, heating the  water inside them back up near 70C in the process. It's heat neutral and leaves mostly oxygen cooled to the temp of your water input.

That's not what he did.  He said he cooled the water, and used the water to cool the air, then fed the still relatively cool water to the electrolyzer.

 

2 hours ago, clickrush said:

It isn't less or more stupid than cooling any O2. It will also get stored in your base until consumed, except if you insulate both the docks away from your base and the pipes that supply them.

Yea, the heat is deleted when charging the suit but while it is sitting there in the dock it is bleeding heat.  That said I still feed mine hot o2 since the docks are outside my main base and I don't care if it's warm up there.

2 hours ago, DaveSatx said:

Apologies.  I thought I was being complete but see I wasn't - i left out a word - availability.  They don't always drop in sufficient numbers or quickly enough.  As for AETN they are often too far away to bother with.

I found it handy since it was available when I needed to cool a steam vent before I had a better method - the steam turbine.  My other steam vents I found later are now being cooled by that.

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27 minutes ago, psusi said:

That's not what he did.  He said he cooled the water, and used the water to cool the air, then fed the still relatively cool water to the electrolyzer.

actually.. i never used the phrase pre-cool.. but if you looked at the picture you'd see that's exactly what it is.. the air leaving my hybrid spom is 75 degrees or there about and that's what I meant.

 

cooling using a toilet loop? interesting idea.

30 minutes ago, psusi said:

How do you cool the steam?

 this time around I use two aquatuner loops (aquatuner/temp sensor/shutoff) in polluted water which gets sieved and returned at 104F when it gets hot (which has been since i set them up LOL).  In a previous run I experimented with immersion in oil; that's when I learned that phosphite melts and coal self translates to refined coal :)

I haven't experimented with steam turbines yet.  I'm intrigued by the things i'm seeing.

 

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Feed all heat to the Great Elder Steam Engine.   Its hunger is eternal, a bottomless chasm in which all energy is annihilated.  They may call it a steam engine, for it does indeed bellow and wheeze a cloud of steam, but what has truly been harnessed is The Void.  An aching rip in space, that opens into the abyss.  And it must be fed, lest it devour us all.

 

But all your efforts will never be enough in the end.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

this time around I use two aquatuner loops (aquatuner/temp sensor/shutoff) in polluted water which gets sieved and returned at 104F when it gets hot (which has been since i set them up LOL).  In a previous run I experimented with immersion in oil; that's when I learned that phosphite melts and coal self translates to refined coal :)

That's what I meant by the toilet loop.  I mean, you are sending the clean water back through the toilet to make it polluted again so you don't run out of polluted water right?  Though I just used a manual valve to control the flow of coolant instead of a temperature sensor and shutoff valve.  That also has the advantage of only running the aquatuner for one packet every once in a while instead of running the batteries dry when the thermo sensor says it's time to cool.

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7 minutes ago, psusi said:

That's what I meant by the toilet loop.  I mean, you are sending the clean water back through the toilet to make it polluted again so you don't run out of polluted water right?  Though I just used a manual valve to control the flow of coolant instead of a temperature sensor and shutoff valve.  That also has the advantage of only running the aquatuner for one packet every once in a while instead of running the batteries dry when the thermo sensor says it's time to cool.

I use an eternal loop for my 4 toilets, 8 sinks and 4 showers with the excess used for other things like pepper. I have too much pepper lol.

the chilled water is used for o2 and was used for bristles.  once I had 'enough' chilled water it runs a lot less.

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BEHOLD, Today I present to you my greatest work of original art, ever. 

-SELF POWERING

-Compressing

-Uhhh

-Moderate at cooling

-Most definitely a waste of HYDROGEN

-You know what it works alright please don't bully medtjfty7k.thumb.PNG.32ba7179e5599b2fd12fef59d61c0aa4.PNG

Due to the dripping mechanic the water in the tank compresses itself, I didn't even do this on purpose  help.

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As a new player I followed this discussion and understand lifegrow's point, but it is completely irrelevant for new players. I still struggle with overheating and not overloading my wire setup. As someone who played only 5h atm, it is completely uninteresting for me how much hydrogen I will need for rockets. Because first I need to learn the game and don't die. (I assume OP is also inexperienced in the game because of this question).

I will keep that in mind for future playthroughs, so I have enough hydrogen later on. But SPOMs are not a noob trap, they are for noobs, which is completely fine.

You don't tell a beginner in any sports/game what he needs to do to win a gold medal at the olympics in 10 years, because he doesn't care.

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1 hour ago, maximusGG said:

As a new player I followed this discussion and understand lifegrow's point, but it is completely irrelevant for new players. I still struggle with overheating and not overloading my wire setup. As someone who played only 5h atm, it is completely uninteresting for me how much hydrogen I will need for rockets. Because first I need to learn the game and don't die. (I assume OP is also inexperienced in the game because of this question).

I'd argue the distinction here is people who want to learn the game versus people who want to be taught how to play the game.

They are two very separate camps, and those who organically "learn" how to play the game would, eventually (monkeys in a room making Shakespeare) possibly come up with a "SPOM"-like build unaided - it's not exactly hard. The main point is they'd have a lot of fun getting there with many less efficient/janky/partly functional builds first, and learn a lot about the game. That's important to get people interested in the game.

Those players who jump straight on google and take the first build they find and slap it into their base, well honestly - they're not worth discussing - they wont be here in 6 months.

We see this all the time when people register on the forums and post their "super duper electrolyzer build" and it's something that we've seen 100 times before, but they're so proud of what they've made they don't read the backlog of bilge on the forums, and instead just post their joyous moment. Instantly it'll inevitably get shut down by "Should've put a mechanical filter in there" or "Don't you SPOM BRO?" but that's a different story :p 

Again, I call it a noob-trap because if you just copy/paste a build into your base, without going on the journey of learning/understanding what you're doing, you're less likely to improve/refine, or even grasp a lot of the fundamentals of the game. Those players don't last with ONI, just look at all the people we've seen come and go since first release.

 

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Look at how "overcomplicated" my base became once open air electrolysis became a part of it - (The 4 air modules are easy to spot)

By the way, this is one way to build a base for efficient pathing. I have to build walls where the red slashes are, but every single errand will have exactly one path.

Quote

image.thumb.png.32776e39e0a7be45e85b9228ff95f71d.png

I struggle with coming here to share off-main ideas, because of how intense people around here get about trashing each other. Never a look at the actual benefits and drawbacks of anything, just expect "your build is terrible mate". I know it's only a few members, but I would go instead for "how about this improvement to your approach"! Or "let's compare design objectives".

Now, I realize that some of that is me just being bad at explaining things. But put a thing of extreme efficiency on the table, well, it's normal for people to have varying objectives. But in this place you get shredded for having something that looks different, by people who have completely different design objectives and can't understand that therein lies the difference in outcome.

It's a bit odd for a community full of engineering-minded people.

 

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2 hours ago, avc15 said:

Look at how "overcomplicated" my base became once open air electrolysis became a part of it - (The 4 air modules are easy to spot)

By the way, this is one way to build a base for efficient pathing. I have to build walls where the red slashes are, but every single errand will have exactly one path.

I struggle with coming here to share off-main ideas, because of how intense people around here get about trashing each other. Never a look at the actual benefits and drawbacks of anything, just expect "your build is terrible mate". I know it's only a few members, but I would go instead for "how about this improvement to your approach"! Or "let's compare design objectives".

Now, I realize that some of that is me just being bad at explaining things. But put a thing of extreme efficiency on the table, well, it's normal for people to have varying objectives. But in this place you get shredded for having something that looks different, by people who have completely different design objectives and can't understand that therein lies the difference in outcome.

It's a bit odd for a community full of engineering-minded people.

 

I like it!   I could ask lots of questions but I don't want to further hijack the thread.  Thanks for sharing.

I understand what you mean about communication; I have thought about not posting because 'it must have already been discussed' (despite search not turning things up) and generally have posted anyway because it can bring useful conversations, making them available for newer people. 

I learned how different my objectives are from others already *grin*

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

We see this all the time when people register on the forums and post their "super duper electrolyzer build" and it's something that we've seen 100 times before, but they're so proud of what they've made they don't read the backlog of bilge on the forums, and instead just post their joyous moment. Instantly it'll inevitably get shut down by "Should've put a mechanical filter in there" or "Don't you SPOM BRO?" but that's a different story :p 

Again, I call it a noob-trap because if you just copy/paste a build into your base, without going on the journey of learning/understanding what you're doing, you're less likely to improve/refine, or even grasp a lot of the fundamentals of the game. Those players don't last with ONI, just look at all the people we've seen come and go since first release.

 

I know exactly what you mean.  I enjoy trying things I see on the forums my own way more than simply dropping in something someone posts. its much more fun to adapt.  I've restarted many times in order to try something a different way or because I let my colony get into an incipient death spiral, lol.

I value civility highly and enjoy contributing to conversation :)
Quite a lot of  the time my first assumption is there may be a language barrier. *shrug*  we are multinational right?

Although.. calling it a noob trap without explanation was a bit like waving a red flag at the forums?

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3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

I'd argue the distinction here is people who want to learn the game versus people who want to be taught how to play the game.

They are two very separate camps, and those who organically "learn" how to play the game would, eventually (monkeys in a room making Shakespeare) possibly come up with a "SPOM"-like build unaided - it's not exactly hard. The main point is they'd have a lot of fun getting there with many less efficient/janky/partly functional builds first, and learn a lot about the game. That's important to get people interested in the game.

Those players who jump straight on google and take the first build they find and slap it into their base, well honestly - they're not worth discussing - they wont be here in 6 months.

We see this all the time when people register on the forums and post their "super duper electrolyzer build" and it's something that we've seen 100 times before, but they're so proud of what they've made they don't read the backlog of bilge on the forums, and instead just post their joyous moment. Instantly it'll inevitably get shut down by "Should've put a mechanical filter in there" or "Don't you SPOM BRO?" but that's a different story :p 

Again, I call it a noob-trap because if you just copy/paste a build into your base, without going on the journey of learning/understanding what you're doing, you're less likely to improve/refine, or even grasp a lot of the fundamentals of the game. Those players don't last with ONI, just look at all the people we've seen come and go since first release.

 

I understand and agree that copying stuff is not the way to go. You need to fail and make mistakes on your own, like IRL. If you just copy essays, ideas, prototypes in college you will fail. Same applies here. And obviously wasting hydrogen is very important when you want to build rockets and explore space later on, but new players like me are far away from even getting to late game.

If I were you I would just tell noobs: "I wouldn't recommend using SPOMs because you might need the hydrogen later on. Come up with your own electrolyzer build. But if you want to learn the mid game and get a better understanding of the game, using them is fine atm."

I also recognized that those builds were designed when hydrogen had like no other purpose other than cooling. With the rocket upgrade, hydrogen is actually useful now, so older builds like the SPOM should be updated accordingly.

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1 minute ago, maximusGG said:

I understand and agree that copying stuff is not the way to go. You need to fail and make mistakes on your own, like IRL. If you just copy essays, ideas, prototypes in college you will fail on the long run. Same applies here. And obviously wasting hydrogen is very important when you want to build rockets and explore space later on, but new players like me are far away from even getting to late game.

If I were you I would just tell noobs: "I wouldn't recommend using SPOMs because you might need the hydrogen later on. Come up with your own electrolyzer build. But if you want to learn the mid game and get a better understanding of the game, using them is fine atm."

I also recognized that those builds were designed when hydrogen had like no other purpose than cooling back then. With the rocket upgrade, hydrogen is actually useful now, so older builds like the SPOM should be updated accordingly.

There's no correlation between me calling it a noob trap and needing hydrogen for rockets. I compare it to the Borg Cube, or the liquid Electrolyzer bug, or indeed any of the "cookie cutter" bug-builds that became in vogue, and everyone was slapping them into their bases. You may not be aware of what these things are as a new player, but in a nutshell they were/are incredibly exploity ways of mitigating game mechanics entirely.

My reasoning for why now I advise new players avoid "Hyper Efficient Relational-Power Electrolyzer Shiz" (HERPES for short) is the need for hydrogen later - paired with the ease of coal/steam/solar/petrol power. However, I've always called it a noob trap - and explained my reasons clearly whenever anyone has asked me on stream.

This isn't some controversial stance - I advise new players every day the same thing "Don't worry if you die a bit, learn from your failings and implement them in your next playthrough, build everything, don't be scared to smash into a slime biome, and don't let the steep learning curve put you off." If they ask direct questions I answer in a way that highlights the issue and show how I deal with it. 

In every one of my "youtubey-guide-build-info" vid things, I always say "hope this helps, go and improve/tweak/tinker and any questions just shout". What I don't say is "This is how YOU should do it."

The difference is huge, and as someone who does actually give a crap about the community of this game - i'd rather we be a collective of helpful/encouraging folks, rather than a gaggle of elitist, egotistical, build slamming, e-peen waggling assclowns.

Personally If I were in your position again as a new player, i'd not be on these forums right now if you've only played 5 hours of the game. I'd be busy feverishly playing until the sun came up and wondering where my evening had gone. I'd be trying to build everything, and pissing away my resources like a happy little camper with no regard for the future, and being overly ecstatic if I even saw cycle 100 before I inevitably flooded my base with <insert hot volcano type here>. I'd probably put a few hundred hours into the game before I even dreamed of joining the forums, because why on earth would I want to ruin the game by copying someone elses experience before I've even had my own.

THAT is my point. 

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@Lifegrow I think there are too many quirks, weird mechanics and game rules for a single person to figure out. Not necessairly in terms of survival but in terms of optimisation, so naturally you want to share ideas at some point, which is great. But I agree that the newbie experience is probably more fun when shut off from the communiy influence, until you figured out basic survival.

However I disagree on:

3 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

gaggle of elitist, egotistical, build slamming, e-peen waggling assclowns

I thought that was the whole point! No, in all seriousness I don't think this is true. It surprises me that some of the posters/readers are seeing it this way! As long as people don't feel entitled to us patting their backs for their YASEBs, they should be fine around here. This community seems actually really helpful. A horde of smartasses that jump to every occasion to discuss/explain anything mechanics related. Just like a community should be around a nerdy game like this.

However...

Dear newbies

I think I speak on behalf of this whole board when I say: If I or any other member of this community has offended your gentle feels, it must be a misunderstanding and we're terribly sorry. It may come off this way because we are passionate, especially when you say something that is obviously wrong, which is about 90% of the time. Also when we look at your builds or even colonies, we get PTSD flashbacks, not only because they are ugly as hell, but because we then remember the painful time we were like you! So please bare with us and stay strong! Soon you'll join us and understand how important all of this here really is.

Sincerely

Me, tHe CoMmUnIty

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