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Liquid Hydrogen nearly impossible to make


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Hey Folks,

I have tested the new game mechanic with the rockets. Some new good ideas, but some others are not.

I love the rocket engine mechanic. But a really great issue of the game is the information to get the maximum distance. U must always build a complete rocket to get the information. I know, a user has made the calculator, but this must be in the game. Some simple calculations in the starmap for example. Than, u can build the right rocket. I hated the whole test mechanic of the rockets. Construct a rocket, u noticed the distance is not enough, deconstruct, add/ remove things is really annoying and always build the ramp to get the oxylite in it... grrrr

Some other problems i had with multiple rockets. If u are not be careful, u send the wrong rocket on the way. Also the information of the started rockets are maniac. If i select a rocket on the left starmap, it should automatically mark the chosen planet AND focus them. Currently it isn't a good solution.

The fuel:

Steam is the simplest method to build a rocket.

Petroleum is also easy enough.

But Hydrogen is nearly impossible!

I have made it, but it is annoying. If u use the super coolant, the temperature difference between the hydrogen and the super coolant to freeze is to close! I used a aqua tuner and set the input to -255C (Above) to cool the super coolant and so the hydrogen (2 chambers besides one with hydrogen and one with super coolant). The Issue is the Coolant has than -269C. 0,1C more and the fluid will be solid. U can get the hydrogen to -255C with this method, but the fluid point is in the game at round about -255,6C+ That's a problem.

By the way!

The game itself say: "The condense point is -252C" So, why I must go 3-4 C above it to fluid it ? That's a stupid game decision. Hydrogen making weren't a problem, if I need not extra Celsius...

The Super Coolant:

I need the fluerene ingredients. It is right, that i get only 4 KG per rocket travel ?

Abysalite is at the moment the most useless thing in the game. U need tons of travels to get enough "isorene" to create a little chamber or few pipes. In my current game i have 700tons of abysalite. Just usless sitting in the storage compactor. The best ingredients from the space is the nobium for thermium! The rest is just....

So far. :D

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@DustFireSky I agree completely. I'm also very annoyed that Klei decided to shrink the window in which hydrogen is liquid from 7C to just 4C. It makes realistic survival game builds very very difficult.

@SamLogan Please check the build you're linking to. To do that build in a survival game would mean you'd have to shuttle materials to make supercoolant for literally 1000s of cycles. Sure, it's easy to spam supercoolant in debug mode but when it takes 10s of trips to get the materials for just a single tile of it, the reality of survival mode kicks in hard.

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Here's my latest version.

LH2a.png.b01d39561975cc6c2b4c3b81f95d6649.pngLH2b.png.5d5249e69694961c22a77a891f529677.png

A preliminary test built in debug since I haven't gotten that far yet. Probably some room for improvement or changes due to survival considerations, but you can't get much simpler. Exotic materials needed are 26 kg of fullerene for the 260kg of super coolant and 30kg of niobium for the 12 radiant thermium pipes. Insulated pipes are ceramic and aquatuner is steel. Temperature sensor set to above -255C. Uses about 1300W (800ish for aquatuner, 480 for gas pumps, 24 for liquid pump) of power to liquefy 1 kg/s 70C hydrogen. Diamond blocks are simulating the cooling for the aquatuner. Ideally you would transfer that heat to a steam turbine for deletion and some power generation, about 400W in theory. Or a sieve cooler for the easy way.

LH2.sav

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1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

@SamLogan Please check the build you're linking to. To do that build in a survival game would mean you'd have to shuttle materials to make supercoolant for literally 1000s of cycles. Sure, it's easy to spam supercoolant in debug mode but when it takes 10s of trips to get the materials for just a single tile of it, the reality of survival mode kicks in hard.

TBH as long as you can make one batch of supercoolant, you can make LH2 . 

The only limtiation is your ability to kill heat and how many aquatuners that you can run at any given time to speed up the process. 

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I just had a thought.

Would using the (minor) exploit of limiting liquid pipes to 1000g packets allow us to exceed the freezing point of supercoolant? Sure, it would be slowed down significantly, but would give us that extra range to push supercoolant beyond the limit of hydrogen liquidizing point.

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3 minutes ago, crypticorb said:

I just had a thought.

Would using the (minor) exploit of limiting liquid pipes to 1000g packets allow us to exceed the freezing point of supercoolant? Sure, it would be slowed down significantly, but would give us that extra range to push supercoolant beyond the limit of hydrogen liquidizing point.

You can already push hydrogen to reliably liquidize. 

The trick is to have two temp + valve combo to move out the coolant ocne it's too warm and to further warm it up and a second to warm the coolant further so it will enter the Aquatuner at precisely the right temperature to bring it just above it's freezing point. 

1 hour ago, DustFireSky said:

have made it, but it is annoying. If u use the super coolant, the temperature difference between the hydrogen and the super coolant to freeze is to close! I used a aqua tuner and set the input to -255C (Above) to cool the super coolant and so the hydrogen (2 chambers besides one with hydrogen and one with super coolant). The Issue is the Coolant has than -269C. 0,1C more and the fluid will be solid. U can get the hydrogen to -255C with this method, but the fluid point is in the game at round about -255,6C+ That's a problem.

You can reliably make LH2*. It's just that you need to waste the cooling affect outside of your LH2 condensation room until the coolant is warm enough that the aquatuner will bring it to just above it's freezing point. You'll also need a pipe temp+valve to keep the coolant long enough in your Lh2 room so you can transfer that heat reliably .

My own current limitation is not the cooling of Lh2 per se but rather generating enough h2 to fuel a rocket. 

*Provided you have sufficient power and heat deletion technique

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2 minutes ago, Evillevi said:

The trick is to have two temp + valve combo to move out the coolant ocne it's too warm and to further warm it up and a second to warm the coolant further so it will enter the Aquatuner at precisely the right temperature to bring it just above it's freezing point. 

Sure, I understand that concept. The idea I had was using the exploit that 1000g packets of liquid do not change state in the pipe. At all. Using this minor exploit, you could bring supercoolant to even colder than liquid H2, even down to absolute zero, if that doesn't crash the game.

It would be slower once you reached that threshold, since you'd have to valve limit the supercoolant flow from 10,000g/s to 1000g/s, but more reliable, and perhaps easier to set up.

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The problem OP has is actually not the supercoolant or the hydrogen's fault. When people build condensers I usually see them build very compact builds, meaning all the heat transfer has to go through a small area and thus the temperature difference between coolant and hydrogen is relatively high. What you should do in this case is build your setup larger. Provide more area and the temperature difference will decrease.

That sayd, seeing as how the materials to build insulated rooms are extremely scarce, I wouldn't mind if the supermaterials to make insulators were more common than they are now.

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45 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

The problem OP has is actually not the supercoolant or the hydrogen's fault. When people build condensers I usually see them build very compact builds, meaning all the heat transfer has to go through a small area and thus the temperature difference between coolant and hydrogen is relatively high. What you should do in this case is build your setup larger. Provide more area and the temperature difference will decrease.

That sayd, seeing as how the materials to build insulated rooms are extremely scarce, I wouldn't mind if the supermaterials to make insulators were more common than they are now.

 I have a large setup. It is bigger as the liquid o2 chamber. The cooling process is working, but in compare to make normal liquid o2... in the same time to get 2000KG hydrogen, i have made 3 times more Lo2. It is make able. We all know that. But i don't think, that a casual player could solve the problem. And personally I think, i don't do it again. The petroleum engine is enough to reach the 100.000KM Planets with LO2 and 1 cargo.

 

The easiest change for the developer were to increase the super coolant condense state. currently it has -266C~ Add 4C Klei and the problem is solved. It's hard enough to make Liquid Hydrogen.

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3 minutes ago, chemie said:

The point made but maybe missed us that 2700kg of hydrogen is actually a pretty big amount to make.

Argh, come on, it's "only" one liquid locked electrolyzer running constantly for just over 40 cycles :D Easy, no? :p

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3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Argh, come on, it's "only" one liquid locked electrolyzer running constantly for just over 40 cycles :D Easy, no? :p

I was about to post the numbers.  I get 22,500 seconds or 37 cycles and requires 22,500 kg of water.  No wonder my lox system depleted a geyser single handedly 

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1 minute ago, chemie said:

I was about to post the numbers.  I get 22,500 seconds or 37 cycles and requires 22,500 kg of water.  No wonder my lox system depleted a geyser single handedly 

112g/s * 600s/c = 67.2kg/c. 2700kg/67.2kg/c = 40c and 107s

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6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

112g/s * 600s/c = 67.2kg/c. 2700kg/67.2kg/c = 40c and 107s

I used 120g/s by mistake

Anyway, does klei even do the math?  Even if you use more electros to manage the time, you wont have the water to fuel a single rocket reliably 

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3 minutes ago, chemie said:

I used 120g/s by mistake

Anyway, does klei even do the math?  Even if you use more electros ti manage the time, you wont have the water to fuel a single rocket reliably 

Of course they do. Here's a picture of the Klei office supercomputer they use

Magic-8-Ball-101.jpg

Let remember that they reduced the regolith by half a few updates ago, so now it's only 19800kg per cycle of regolith we have to deal with on average. And that's including the breaks and peace season.

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1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

Of course they do. Here's a picture of the Klei office supercomputer they use

Magic-8-Ball-101.jpg

How many petro rockets are needed to provide ice to fuel the electros for your h2 rocket?  The good news is you are drowning in oxygen while making all that h2.  I have been using petroleum as my heat sink for lox tuners and then blast the hot petro into space.  Just not sure it works since you get so few cargo modules now (1 for distant and max 2)

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8 hours ago, Saturnus said:

@DustFireSky I agree completely. I'm also very annoyed that Klei decided to shrink the window in which hydrogen is liquid from 7C to just 4C. It makes realistic survival game builds very very difficult.

@SamLogan Please check the build you're linking to. To do that build in a survival game would mean you'd have to shuttle materials to make supercoolant for literally 1000s of cycles. Sure, it's easy to spam supercoolant in debug mode but when it takes 10s of trips to get the materials for just a single tile of it, the reality of survival mode kicks in hard.

You can do it in survival mode with a lot less coolant using a method someone posted further down in my thread: Stop the coolant in the hydrogen room instead of constantly circulating it.  It works awesome, can be done with ceramic insulated tiles and pipes, and only requires about 200kg of super coolant.

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While making liquid hydrogen is a bit tricky, it's not THAT big of a deal. 

 

Yes, super coolant freezes very close to the temps of hydrogen, that just means you'll have to reheat it just slightly after cooling your hydrogen and before running it back into your aquatuners. 20181026235920_1.thumb.jpg.bca689d702e10028727e0a49e2e6109a.jpg

 

This system of mine produces close to 1kg/s liquid hydrogen, while also producing 2kg/s LOX. 

The regular tile you see above the diamond tile, is the one that reheats the super coolant just a tiny bit.. like 2-3c, before running it back into the tuner. - and there is a thermo sensor just in case the tile didn't re-heat the coolant enough, so it can cycle a second time. - happens rarely

20181027000111_1.thumb.jpg.9f639f2b0600f97876ea68eb9c1b2e53.jpg

 

So, your grief is ill placed my friend, the issue is you're not thinking of how to solve the problem you're given. 

 

And the 3c grace can be abused more then it's hurting anything.

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4 hours ago, chemie said:

The point made but maybe missed us that 2700kg of hydrogen is actually a pretty big amount to make.

I have SO much hydrogen by cycle 50 in my game that by the time I reach space, its no issue at all.  Even by burning enough hydrogen to run my SPOM, I've stored up 300kg in 10 cycles.  And that's only the excess from creating enough oxygen for my dupes to breathe.  If I start running it off into a condenser for LOX, I'll be getting a lot more.

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I'm having a lot of success by warming it to -252 and sending it back through. Like others have said, it's not terrible to get. Especially with access to a free and easy to use vacuum.

Another tip is to use buffer gates on your pumps to time how much fuel you send out at once. Breakage of pipes due to excess fuel is bad.

Here's a screen from my playthrough where I'm creating steam, liquid hydrogen, and liquid oxygen with 1 aquatuner.

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 3.13.40 PM.png

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