Sustainability for more than 8 dupes - how the hell?

[Neotuck]

Just now, psusi said:

Not free; it takes rancher labor and much more importantly, a ****load of lag inducing morbs.  Yea, I guess I need to try a new map that hopefully has a pw or slush.

Slush geysers = free cooling, free dirt, and free water.

PW can do the same just have to deal with the food poisoning germs

[Carnis]

Psusi can you share save?

[0xFADE]

Living without a polluted water source geyser sure is more of an issue than I expected.  Dupes don’t make near as much polluted water as I expected. 

[Neotuck]

2 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Living without a polluted water source geyser sure is more of an issue than I expected.  Dupes don’t make near as much polluted water as I expected. 

You can always isolate some dupes with the stress vomiting skill

You would be surprised how much vomit and piss can come from one dupe, as long as you supply food and O2 it won't die

[Zarquan]

11 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

You can always isolate some dupes with the stress vomiting skill

You would be surprised how much vomit and piss can come from one dupe, as long as you supply food and O2 it won't die

I am curious about if you have your dupes have only bath time instead of work time, can any of them use the lavatory more than once per day?  Especially small bladder dupes.

Also, vomiting dupes eat more food, have you taken that in to account?

Also, you are a monster.  Poor dupes.

[clickrush]

21 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Living without a polluted water source geyser sure is more of an issue than I expected.  Dupes don’t make near as much polluted water as I expected. 

They really don't need to though. My current base has 32 dupes @ cycle 150 (see screenshot). I'am using two cool steam vents for my electrolyzer setup. The cool water tank (which is usually for my base) is sieved by a polluted water puddle which got filled by about 1/4 of the map (ice biomes not included), serves as a backup for the electrolyzers and it is still large. I'am melting about 3 ice biomes on the other side of the map which my puddles near the bottom and they are enormous.

The map doesn't have any additional water/steam/PHO2 geysers apart from the standard two. As a rough estimate I'am pretty sure i can run this >1000 cycles or even much more than that w/o worrying about water. As soon as my PH2O puddle near my base starts to shrink I just build another one at the bottom and dig out all the freaking PH2O puddles.

 

[Neotuck]

3 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

vomiting dupes eat more food, have you taken that in to account?

Also, you are a monster.  Poor dupes.

Sure you aren't thinking of binge eaters?

But if fed only mush bars (dirt and water) they will have the dirrea stat and go to the bathroom twice as often

Then sieve/compost the water for more mush bars

I'm not a monster, I'm a demon

BWAHAHA......

[Fischer_L]

Just now, Neotuck said:

Sure you aren't thinking of binge eaters?

But if fed only mush bars (dirt and water) they will have the dirrea stat and go to the bathroom twice as often

Then sieve/compost the water for more mush bars

I'm not a monster, I'm a demon

BWAHAHA......

well, if i remeber correctly 1 mush bar - 50kg of water, 1 dupes make 6,7kg of water per lavatory visit, so it would be net negative.

[Zarquan]

4 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Sure you aren't thinking of binge eaters?

Look at a dupes kcal when they are vomiting.  And it makes sense that it would be that way.

4 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

But if fed only mush bars (dirt and water) they will have the dirrea stat and go to the bathroom twice as often

That and small bladder.  Would that be 3 times per cycle?  Also, what Fischer_L said.

7 minutes ago, clickrush said:

As a rough estimate I'am pretty sure i can run this >1000 cycles or even much more than that w/o worrying about water. As soon as my PH2O puddle near my base starts to shrink I just build another one at the bottom and dig out all the freaking PH2O puddles.

But the OP's colony is almost at cycle 800.  That means that he will be almost out of water, and that is not good.  We are looking for stability forever.  Either gaining water or not losing any.

[clickrush]

2 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

But the OP's colony is almost at cycle 800.  That means that he will be almost out of water, and that is not good.  We are looking for stability forever.  Either gaining water or not losing any.

His cycle 800 is like my cycle 200 + something. I'am running 4x as many duplicants and added them almost on print, so put a fixed 50 cycles on top. 'Stability forever' is not something one has to care about until very late in the game (while 'late' is relative to the number of duplicants). And by then you easily have the tech and ressources to boil oil and shoot up rockets continously.

[Zarquan]

2 minutes ago, clickrush said:

His cycle 800 is like my cycle 200 + something. I'am running 4x as many duplicants and added them almost on print, so put a fixed 50 cycles on top. 'Stability forever' is not something one has to care about until very late in the game (while 'late' is relative to the number of duplicants). And by then you easily have the tech and ressources to boil oil and shoot up rockets continously.

He doesn't have to worry about it, but he is anyway.  His prerogative.  I understand his motivations.

[Neotuck]

17 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Look at a dupes kcal when they are vomiting.  And it makes sense that it would be that way.

So if I kept a dupe vomiting though stress or food poison, would they starve to death even with food available?

[0xFADE]

The farthest I’ll go is small bladder dupes though simply having more dupes will get me more polluted water. 

only have around 22 while my mushroom farm was ramping up. I can take on a lot more now. 

[Zarquan]

Just now, Neotuck said:

So if I kept a dupe vomiting though stress or food poison, would they starve to death even with food available?

I don't know, I don't torture dupes.  All I know is that when they vomit, they lose kcal.

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

1. Not sustainable
2. So doing the whole crazy use lava to boil oil and then condence the sour gas thing is the only way to get more water?  That's a hell of a bother.  How much more water can you get that way?
3. Been off of mealworm since like cycle 80.  Never used mushbars or grown thimblereed, and only tried bristleblossom for a short while.
4. Been done with research for a *long* time.  Again, we're talking about sustainability here, not short term
5. Not even sure why you'd need to mention that; it's a no brainer and you have to go out of your way to do it anyhow
6. I hadn't considered this one since it is so dupe labor intensive. I'm still not sure it is actually viable since you would have to have like a dozen of them to get very much oxygen and that would take up most of the time of something like 4 dupes.
7. I tried running the electrolyzer just from the toilet water a few hundred cycles ago and it wasn't sustainable, which is why I set up the AETN and started using the water from the steam vent.  After a few hundred cycles I was starting to get a buildup of polluted water so I used it to set up a coolant loop all around the base being cooled by an aquatuner in petrol with a heat exchanger to the steam turbine.  It just seems like it takes hundreds of cycles for this to make much water.

Ohh, and I forgot I guess I am also using the polluted water from the toilet to make fertilizer.

1. Stop-gap measure. Ice biomes can sustain your base for a very long time.
2. Can get you a LOT of excess water.  Other members on this forum have shown the math.  If you pump water into an oil well, then make a boiler to convert the crude to natural gas and burn the natural gas, you get a 66% increase on your water.
3. Was because I see a lot of posts where people are running out of water and they're doing these, so figured I'd cover my bases.
4. True, I didn't notice you mentioned you were closing in on cycle 800.
5. Again, I've read a lot of posts on this forum where people cool their base by venting hot water to space.  Just covering my bases.
6. It actually isn't that bad, and if you're running 40 dupes, you have TONS of free dupe labor available. It is THE MOST resource efficient oxygen production in the game.
7. Alright, lets take 10 dupes that are all 100% normal.  Once per day they'll each use the latrines.  For each use, a latrine uses 5kg of water and outputs 11.7kg of polluted water for an increase of 6.7kg.  With 10 dupes that's 67kg of polluted water getting added to your system per day.  If we run that water through a sieve and then into an electrolyzer, it produces enough oxygen to sustain 1 dupe.

Your only steam geyser produces a running average of 1.76kg/s.  Lets assume you can capture and store 100% of its output and work with that number. If you only use the water for oxygen production with electrolyzers, you can sustain 15.64 dupes off of it.  Lets play with your sustainability just using the geyser and toilets.

Lets assume you have 12 dupes, and that they're all perfectly normal breathers and only use the restroom once per day.  12 dupes need 1200g/s of oxygen which will use 1351.35g/s of water.  For 12 dupes, the average excess from latrines will be 134g/s, so your net loss is 1217.35g/s.  That leaves you with 542.65g/s of water from your geyser.  That's 325.59kg per cycle.  Each sleet wheat or bristlebloom requires 20kg/cycle of water. You have enough extra water for 16 plants.  One berry sludge requires 5 grains and 1 berry for 4000kcal of food.  To feed them ONLY berry sludge, you would need 15 sleet wheat and 18 bristle bloom plants (without a farmer).  You don't have enough left over water for the 33 plants you would need, but you DO have enough for 16.27 plants. If you plant 9 bristle bloom and 8 sleet wheat (make sure the 8th sleet wheat is at the end of the line to get the intermittent watering) you'll provide sustainable food for 6 of your dupes. The other six can eat eggs or mushrooms.  So, neglecting ALL other sources of water, your one geyser can sustain 12 dupes indefinitely if you add just a small amount of ranching or mushroom farms. 

Now, lets look at some other methods of sustaining the oxygen needs of the dupes.  Lets start with straight off-gassing.  For the moment we're going to ignore slime-lung since there are a variety of methods of dealing with it and instead just look at the mechanics.  Near the beginning of every new base, I build an area to dump excess polluted water so that the off-gassing doesn't cause problems inside my base.  Later, when I I get some ventilation researched, I start piping the polluted oxygen somewhere, figuring that eventually I'll need to feed some pufts.  For this experiment, I piped the polluted oxygen into a small room so I could measure the output per cycle.  

Spoiler

The room with the polluted water has a gas pump set at "over 500g."  For the test I re-directed the output into a 30-room chamber for exactly 1 cycle.  I then let the PO2 settle to make it easy to measure.  This small room by itself produces 50kg of PO2 per cycle.  Not a lot, but it is resource free and can sustain 0.83 dupes.  A larger surface area would increase the generation of PO2, meaning that given enough space, you could technically sustain your dupes just by off-gassing and using deoderizers with an automation setup to eliminate dupe labor.

What about algae?  To make my math easier, lets assume you have 4x more off-gassing, so 200kg/cycle of PO2 and you feed it to Pufts in an over-pressured room (no slime sublimation).  That's 100kg of slime per cycle.  Running it through an algae distiller nets you 20kg of algae and 40kg of polluted water.  The algae in terrariums provides 44.45g/s of oxygen, using 10.84g/s of water leaving 55.8g/s of extra water.  You're getting less total oxygen, BUT now you've converted a free resource into water, which you're short on.  

Heck, lets take this one step further.  What if we build something like this?

Spoiler

OK, its hurry up and wait time.. Someone hum the jeopardy theme.  After about 1 cycle, the terrariums have produced 237.6kg of oxygen.  They have consumed 162kg of algae and 1620kg of water.  So far, no dupe interaction and it doesn't seem that great. 

Another cycle and a short bit later and it is at the point at which you need a dupe to interact with it.  Lets go with "two cycles" to make the math easy.  At two cycles we've produced 475.2kg of oxygen while consuming 324kg algae, and 3240kg of water.

Spoiler

It took Gossmann about 30 seconds to pull the bottles out.  Put some automation in, maybe on a clock timer or something so that the dupe ONLY goes in when its time to empty.  Have a guaranteed low-priority task that gets them to leave again once done, say a hamster wheel with a light at priority one.  Doesn't matter.  Just guarantee that whatever dupe can come into the area will always go back out.

Once the dupe has interacted and left,  use automation on the doors to drop the bottles without  contaminating the various air supplies.  Let it run for another cycle.  You can hum the jeopardy theme again if you like.

Spoiler

So, two cycles later and we're ready to empty the terrariums again.  In addition to the first run, these two cycles have ALSO produced 120kg of PO2 in our collection room.  So.. lets go for another 2.something cycles... (looks like its about 2.25 cycles).  This time we collected 330kg of PO2 which averages to about 146kg/cycle.  We go again and get 432kg of PO2.

So, by emptying rounds:   One -- Zero PO2.  Two -- 120kg PO2.  Three -- 330kg PO2.  Four -- 432kg PO2.  We've got SOME diminishing returns, but I think that perhaps its because I'm not pumping the PO2 out fast enough.  In fact, the pump was moving an average of 320g/s of PO2, so we need a second pump in there.  Lets go one more round and see what we get.

Spoiler

This time we collected 600kg of PO2 in our side room so, yeah, we needed that second pump to keep the pressure low enough for the bottles to continually off-gas.  Anyway, you can see the progression.

So lets run with the numbers.  9 terrariums are using 162kg per cycle of algae.  By cycle 9 (4 emptyings) we are producing an extra 266.66kg of PO2.  As detailed above, you can feed it to Pufts then use a distiller and end up with 44.4kg of algae.  Lets say we can scale it linearly (we can't, dupes will end up spending ALL their time grooming Pufts at some point) and do some more emptyings.  In 36 cycles it goes completely resource positive and you can stop emptying.  Here's the numbers:

• 237.6kg/cycle oxygen -- enough for 3.96 dupes.
• Consumes 0 net algae -- you're getting it all back through distillers.
• Consumes 1620kg/cycle clean water
• Outputs 1567.8kg polluted water which can be emptied into your reservoir -- you don't need to collect any more bottles.
• Outputs 540kg/cycle polluted water from distilling slime -- That's a net gain of 487.8kg/cycle of polluted water.

If you put that extra water through an electrolyzer, you can support another 7.22 dupes.  With zero resource consumption, you can support 11 dupes using terrariums.  Unfortunately, it also requires 64 tame pufts, or 8 farms.  BUT.. one rancher can maintain about two and a half ranches, so.. 3.25 of your 11 dupes need to be able to ranch.

Or you can convert the PO2 straight to oxygen using deoderizers (or a LOX) and save the extra work.  If we assume that you're out of algae at cycle 36, you'll be producing ~1600g/s of polluted oxygen, or enough for 16 dupes.  For free.  Either way, you now have a lot of extra water to play with for farming or whatever.  Have fun!

 

 

[psusi]

Wait, what?!  At first you are manually emptying the terreriams and letting the ph2o turn into po2 to feed back into pufts.  Assuming you are right and that gives more algae than it took, HOW the heck are you supposed to stop emptying the tereriams after a few cycles?

And here's the save.

The Radioactive Panotpicon 6.sav

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 minutes ago, psusi said:

Wait, what?!  At first you are manually emptying the terreriams and letting the ph2o turn into po2 to feed back into pufts.  Assuming you are right and that gives more algae than it took, HOW the heck are you supposed to stop emptying the tereriams after a few cycles?

And here's the save.

The Radioactive Panotpicon 6.sav

Well, IDK.  Maybe look at what your overall PO2 production rate is and set a goal.  Once you reach that goal, turn off the automation for the doors and the gate.  Now when your dupes go in to empty the terrariums, they'll also carry the water bottles out to empty into your reservoir.  Really, all you need to do is check back occasionally until you reach your goal.  I didn't bother automating the system completely, but it could be easily done.

For example, put a pressure plate in front of the gate.  When the terrariums are ready to empty, a dupe will step on the plate.  Put a buffer in there and add 20 seconds (or 30) to make sure ALL the terrariums are in need of emptying at once.  The gate turns green, the dupes go in. Put a memory toggle in there with another buffer and when the dupes go back out, it'll turn the gate off.  Once the gate is off, use some buffers or filters to rotate the doors: Open the top, close the top.  Open the bottom.  Close the middle.  Close the bottom. Open the middle.  Put four fans in the bottom with one of them going through a valve set at 100g/s for a total of 1600g/s of pumping.  Put an atmo sensor in there at set it to "under 1500."  When that sensor turns off, you're producing more PO2 than your fans can handle, which means you've reached your goal.  Have that go through an AND gate with your door automations and a NOT gate to a door blocking your bottle emptiers.  When the gate turns green, dupes will go in, empty the terrariums and carry the bottles back out.  The floor doors will no longer cycle and now you're 100% automated and once you build it you can forget about it.

[thejams]

@KittenIsAGeek doesn't off-gassing polluted water lose mass?

Edit: Yes it does, both freestanding and in bottles so @KittenIsAGeek's math is kinda FUBAR...

[crypticorb]

7 hours ago, psusi said:

I got the chlorine instead of the natgas.  How many other ones are you supposed to get?  I've got po2 and 2 gold.  Should there be a 4th buried one?

Every asteroid will always have the 4 guaranteed geysers (2 cool steam, NG, and NG/Chlorine), always at least 2 oil reservoirs, and a random distribution of buried geysers numbering between six and eight. The only exceptions are incredibly bad luck with world generation, losing geysers and oil reservoirs to bad spawning and POI overlap.

Since Klei has neglected to give us a map generation options menu for things like geysers, meteors, starting stuff, critters, etc, you might want to take matters into your own hands. You have 3 options to get what you need:

1. Start fresh, pick a seed. Use this handy new tool made by @Cairath, or use this spreadsheet to pick one with what you want.
2. Debug mode: If you feel you've been screwed over by map generation and one of your guaranteed 4 geysers is missing, simply spawn one using debug. You can't spawn a random buried geyser, but the 4 guaranteed ones are in a template.
3. Save file editor: Alter one of your existing geysers to be what you need, using this tool. Use your own discretion in its use, backup your save file if you use it. I've tested it with dupe alteration, and it works, but best be cautious.

[KittenIsAGeek]

9 minutes ago, thejams said:

@KittenIsAGeek doesn't off-gassing polluted water lose mass?

After some testing.. looks like they fixed it.  Bottles didn't used to lose mass.  Onnnnn the other hand...  a quick test shows a 1:1 conversion of PW to PO2.  So running some numbers... assuming 1600g/s of PO2 as per the math above.  That's a loss of 1600g/s of PW or 960kg.  So with the terrariums and pufts making slime we're losing a total of 472.2kg/cycle to make air for 11 dupes.

With electrolyzers you'd be using about 750kg/cycle to make air for those same dupes.  Basically you've almost doubled your efficiency AND you're gonna be having eggs come out your ears from those Puft farms.

 

[thejams]

5 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

With electrolyzers you'd be using about 750kg/cycle to make air for those same dupes.  Basically you've almost doubled your efficiency AND you're gonna be having eggs come out your ears from those Puft farms.

 

Yeah, but at least 4 of those dupes will be doing manual labor supporting that system vs none for the electrolyzer system, so the more realistic comparison is 7 vs 11 dupes.  7 dupes on electrolyzers will consume, omg... 472,2 kg/cycle 

[psusi]

41 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Well, IDK.  Maybe look at what your overall PO2 production rate is and set a goal.  Once you reach that goal, turn off the automation for the doors and the gate.  Now when your dupes go in to empty the terrariums, they'll also carry the water bottles out to empty into your reservoir.  Really, all you need to do is check back occasionally until you reach your goal.  I didn't bother automating the system completely, but it could be easily done.

So you meant that you don't need to evaporate all of the ph20 into po2 to feed back into the pufts and can keep some excess ph20, not that you can stop emptying the terreriams?

11 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

After some testing.. looks like they fixed it.  Bottles didn't used to lose mass.  Onnnnn the other hand...  a quick test shows a 1:1 conversion of PW to PO2.  So running some numbers... assuming 1600g/s of PO2 as per the math above.  That's a loss of 1600g/s of PW or 960kg.  So with the terrariums and pufts making slime we're losing a total of 472.2kg/cycle to make air for 11 dupes.

Ohhh!  You mean the bottles didn't used to use up the ph20 and convert it into po2?  Weird.

12 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

With electrolyzers you'd be using about 750kg/cycle to make air for those same dupes.  Basically you've almost doubled your efficiency AND you're gonna be having eggs come out your ears from those Puft farms.

Interesting.  Also you have the option of just spawning more lag causing morbs for po2 instead of using the water.

[KittenIsAGeek]

@psusi I opened up your save file.  You have a second cool steam vent to the north-east of your molten slickster farm.  There are also two oil reservoirs, so the potential for extra water is available there.  Finally, you have some water-routing problems that might be causing a  small problem. 

With your pipe layout, there's the potential for a sink to consume clean water, then 'hiccup' and not produce the polluted water.  The shower could as well.  The following method will make sure that the toilet or shower (or sink) will never get the "pipe blocked" error unless you've managed to hit the capacity of your pipes.

3 minutes ago, thejams said:

Yeah, but at least 4 of those dupes will be doing manual labor supporting that system vs none for the electrolyzer system, so the more realistic comparison is 7 vs 11 dupes.  7 dupes on electrolyzers will consume, omg... 472,2 kg/cycle 

Well, the question was about the number of dupes you could support, not how idle they were.  *shrug*

[Parusoid]

14 hours ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Boiling oil to petroleum will net you a net profit of 25% of water

When i boil 100kg of oil i will get 75kg of petroleum and 25kg of water? As a steam, or what?

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

When i boil 100kg of oil i will get 75kg of petroleum and 25kg of water? As a steam, or what?

No, 100kg of oil will boil into 100kg of petroleum. Then you burn the petrol in a generator and get 32.5kg of polluted water.

 

And 32.5kg of water into an oil well gives you 108.3kg of crude.  So you're getting more out than you put in.