Sustainability for more than 8 dupes - how the hell?

[KittenIsAGeek]

@psusi  I ran your save file for several cycles after fixing the plumbing.  Your base is a little chaotic for my tastes, but you seem to have everything covered.  I did the math on the 3 cool steam vents I found on your map and they provide a combined average total of 2.55kg/s or 1530kg/cycle.  If you use electrolyzers for oxygen, they will sustain 22 dupes with a little left over.  The natural gas vent you have contained isn't that great, but it will run one nat gas gen continually when supplemented with the output from your single fertilizer maker.  That's another 67.5g/s of water.  With the extra from your geysers, the extra from your dupes using toilets, and the output from a continually running nat gas generator, you can sustain one more dupe with oxygen from an electrolyzer.  So that's 23 dupes.  You also have two oil wells.  Assuming a boiler converting oil to petrol, then running petrol generators, that's an extra 250g/s each or 4 and half more dupes.  Your map doesn't have the best resources, but you can still sustain 27 dupes indefinitely.

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

You also have two oil wells.  Assuming a boiler converting oil to petrol, then running petrol generators, that's an extra 250g/s each or 4 and half more dupes.  Your map doesn't have the best resources, but you can still sustain 27 dupes indefinitely.

If you boil to sour gas and condense, then you can get a lot more water per cycle through natural gas generators (around 855 g/s).

Also, I think you are missing something.  I calculate you could get a profit of 455 g/s water using petroleum generators if you take in to account the 33.3 g/s natural gas from the oil well and slicksters eating up all the CO2. 

I got this using the geometric series 1 + (500/2000)/2 + ((500/2000)/2)^2 ... = 1 + 1/8 + 1/8^2 ... to calculate how much each gram of crude oil becomes with slicksters, which is about 1.14 grams of crude oil total vs 1 g initial.  Then I figured out the total initial crude oil, which is the 3333.33 g/s from the well and the CO2 from the 33.3 g/s natural gas, which was 8.325 g/s CO2 = 4.1625 g/s crude oil.  That means the initial crude oil in this system is 3337.49 g/s crude oil (not much of a difference). 

3337.49 * 1.14 = 3814.28 g/s crude oil per oil well with slicksters.  That results in 1430.35 g/s water.  Then we add in the water from the 33.3 g/s natural gas (which is 24.975 g/s water) to get 1455.3 g/s water.  1000 g/s of that goes to the oil well, resulting in 455.3 g/s water per oil well, almost double what you were getting. 

Plus, free food from the slicksters!  To be precise, 28.6 slicksters per oil well.  Enough to 4.77 eggs/cycle, which results in either 19,075 kcal/cycle in bbq (if you have enough wild pinchapepper) or 9,540 kcal/cycle in omlettes.

Did you take in to account every dupe having deeper divers lungs (which possible in the long haul)

[psusi]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

@psusi I opened up your save file.  You have a second cool steam vent to the north-east of your molten slickster farm.  There are also two oil reservoirs, so the potential for extra water is available there.  Finally, you have some water-routing problems that might be causing a  small problem. 

You mean a third?  Because I have one to the lower left of my base that I have been using for a long time, and am in the process of opening the one just to the right of my base, above the steam turbine.  Yea, look at that, I used the sandbox cheat and there is a third unburried one right there in that little pocket I hadn't explored yet, as well as a third AETN!  I don't see how I can ( nor have I ever seen ) "hiccups" with this setup since there is a segment of pipe after the output of the sink/shower/toilet before it merges into the main branch, so that one segment should always be empty unless the main branch is completely full.  You appear to have only added a second pipe segment to act as a second buffer ( one seems to be sufficient, no? ) and a bridge, which doesn't seem to do anything.

How do you use this new neural vascilator recharge thing?  I don't seem to have a codex entry on it.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, psusi said:

You mean a third?  Because I have one to the lower left of my base that I have been using for a long time, and am in the process of opening the one just to the right of my base, above the steam turbine.  I don't see how I can ( nor have I ever seen ) "hiccups" with this setup since there is a segment of pipe after the output of the sink/shower/toilet before it merges into the main branch, so that one segment should always be empty unless the main branch is completely full.  You appear to have only added a second pipe segment to act as a second buffer ( one seems to be sufficient, no? ) and a bridge, which doesn't seem to do anything.

 

 

You have a total of 3 cold steam geysers on your map.

The pipes out of your toilets, shower, and sinks are T's.  This means that when liquid reaches the T, if there is any other packet there, it will stall and wait for the other packet to go first.  This can lead to a backup in the line.  The bridge allows the packets to merge without alternating.  If your layout works for you, that's great. I'm just pointing out that I've had problems with how you set things up and how I resolved my issues. 

[Steelflame]

14 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

Dupes do produce water through toilets.  I don't know if they produce more than they consume through an electrolyzer but having small dupe counts is likely more of a handycap.

Small bladder is a great negative trait.

Small Bladder actually does nothing, like flat out, probably due to a numbers bug that has never been fixed.  Its a change of bladder state over an entire cycle of +.2% bladder fullness.  If it was something like 20% (Which is probably what it should be, assuming .2% was meant to be .2 period) it would be impactful.

You get more impact from letting dupes have two bathroom breaks, as they can go to the bathroom at as low as 45% bladder fullness or so, so twice a day.

[crypticorb]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

How do you use this new neural vascilator recharge thing?  I don't seem to have a codex entry on it.

You'll have to do some space exploration for that. Apparently they're only discovered from the rocket module that researches while in flight, and it's a random chance that one will be acquired.

9 minutes ago, Steelflame said:

You get more impact from letting dupes have two bathroom breaks, as they can go to the bathroom at as low as 45% bladder fullness or so, so twice a day.

You can double the amount of lavatory output per dupe that easily? That seems an incredibly useful strategy for a water-starved asteroid, since that extra runoff from the toilets can add up.

[Steelflame]

8 minutes ago, crypticorb said:

You'll have to do some space exploration for that. Apparently they're only discovered from the rocket module that researches while in flight, and it's a random chance that one will be acquired.

You can double the amount of lavatory output per dupe that easily? That seems an incredibly useful strategy for a water-starved asteroid, since that extra runoff from the toilets can add up.

Yep.  Note that it HAS to be a bathroom break, not morale break.  So you effectively have to give up two time slots of work to go to the bathroom, at opposite ends of the day (meaning dupes who are going out and about in the asteroid won't be able to use this well).  You are effectively giving up 2 time slots of work for 6k? pee water per dupe.

Its a lot of dupe time for a pinch of water.  Only good for dupes who spend 90% of their time in the core area of the base or around a bathroom.

[crypticorb]

1 minute ago, Steelflame said:

Yep.  Note that it HAS to be a bathroom break, not morale break.  So you effectively have to give up two time slots of work to go to the bathroom, at opposite ends of the day (meaning dupes who are going out and about in the asteroid won't be able to use this well).  You are effectively giving up 2 time slots of work for 6k? pee water per dupe.

Something I've never tested, but just came to mind: do dupes in exosuits ever need to pee? Once I get to exosuits I usually have long since set up a permanent lavatory system, and never tested this out.

Is the amount of bladder filled completely negated by the suit? If you keep them in a suit 24/7, can you forget about bathrooms completely? Or does the bladder % suddenly catch up as soon as the suit is removed?

[Steelflame]

Just now, crypticorb said:

Something I've never tested, but just came to mind: do dupes in exosuits ever need to pee? Once I get to exosuits I usually have long since set up a permanent lavatory system, and never tested this out.

Is the amount of bladder filled completely negated by the suit? If you keep them in a suit 24/7, can you forget about bathrooms completely? Or does the bladder % suddenly catch up as soon as the suit is removed?

I don't know on that front, as I tend to not use exos a ton.  I prefer the route of just pressurizing everything in semi-cool oxygen so the dupes can go wherever they want at will.  I am starting to add more use of them into my builds though, partially because upgrading to jetpacks looks really nice.

[thejams]

9 hours ago, psusi said:

And here's the save.

The Radioactive Panotpicon 6.sav

Well it's a pretty ****ty map in terms of water for sure, but with 4 assorted volcanoes you sure don't lack metals and heating 

You still can easily go 15-25 dupes depending on what you feed them.  Your immediate goals should be making sure all of your 3 steam geysers are condensed properly so you get 100% of the output.  Work on uncovering the third cold steam vent, the one to the right of your base is pretty much the worst ever.

You also need to sort out your power asap.  Start using the Oil refinery and setup a Petroleum generator.  Build some kind of a power tower with multiple generators inside (Petroleum, NGG, Coal) connected with heavy watt wires.  Have multiple conductive wire branches going out towards your consumers each via 2 small transformers like this:

Try to even out the load on each branch.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

@psusi  I did the math on the 3 cool steam vents I found on your map

Someone pick up that phone...

 

 

...Because I called it!

[Oozinator]

Mhh sustainability is sometimes not really easy(bad starterbiome/bad vulcano roll), but not so hard when you follow the "techline"
At first hydro for power - additional pick open polluted oxygen caves - deodorizer, to "stretch" water early game.
Coal gen - carbon skimmer - PW.
Then Natgas, so far you have. Only one or max two fertilizer maker.
Grab some ice, store it in the waterpool. Never dig out ice for water (50% mass lost)
When you rest to long on a techlevel (only hydro), water gets low..
Target is to reach oil biome - petrol gen, then you have energy + PW + CO2 (more pw) feed oilwells, after oilbiome is drained and search for alternative water ressources (geysers). The geysers i found are not big of a use, with one i could feed 4 electrolyzers and with the other 1..
After that i have so much ice that i drop it into space, to get rid of it.
Cooling the universe..

[Parusoid]

20 hours ago, psusi said:

hadn't considered this one since it is so dupe labor intensive. I'm still not sure it is actually viable since you would have to have like a dozen of them to get very much oxygen and that would take up most of the time of something like 4 dupes

Can't I just submerge them in shallow water, since they can take water from proximity, and use automatic grabbers to grab the bottles?  

Or let the bottles stay and use deodorizer to convert the polluted oxygen (coming from bottles) into oxygen. 

Also where do I take so much algae... 

[thejams]

@Parusoid What Kitten suggested with Algae terrariums was based on Pwater battles not losing mass when off-gassing.  That is no longer true so you can't just convert the PO2, you have to setup algae production and you will still lose water.

[Parusoid]

23 minutes ago, thejams said:

@Parusoid What Kitten suggested with Algae terrariums was based on Pwater battles not losing mass when off-gassing.  That is no longer true so you can't just convert the PO2, you have to setup algae production and you will still lose water.

I don't care about them losing mass. I didn't even know they didn't. They still are gasing so oxygen is still produced by deodorizer, and when they completely off gas the bottle disapers so problemy solved 

[thejams]

@Parusoid The discussion was about water.  From a sustainability point, per (normal) dupe:

1) Algae Terrariums need 68g/s algae which equals 136g/s of polluted oxygen which equals 136g/s polluted water which equals 140g/s water (if you use the terrariums to get polluted water)

2) Electrolyzer needs 112,6g/s water

Now, if you don't produce algae, there is some gain to be had until you run out.  You would be converting the water at a bit better rate than using an Electrolyzer (103,3 vs 112,6 g/s water per dupe) and the algae at a much better rate than using Algae deoxydizers.

I kinda prefer the fire and forget + get power spom setup, but to each their own.

 

[Parusoid]

21 minutes ago, thejams said:

@Parusoid The discussion was about water.  From a sustainability point, per (normal) dupe:

1) Algae Terrariums need 68g/s algae which equals 136g/s of polluted oxygen which equals 136g/s polluted water which equals 140g/s water (if you use the terrariums to get polluted water)

2) Electrolyzer needs 112,6g/s water

Now, if you don't produce algae, there is some gain to be had until you run out.  You would be converting the water at a bit better rate than using an Electrolyzer (103,3 vs 112,6 g/s water per dupe) and the algae at a much better rate than using Algae deoxydizers.

I kinda prefer the fire and forget + get power spom setup, but to each their own.

 

I'm Pretty sure electrolyzer use 1000g water per second 

[thejams]

1 minute ago, Parusoid said:

I'm Pretty sure electrolyzer use 1000g water per second 

They consume as much as they need to produce.  I was discussing production for 1 (normal) dupe consuming 100g/s of Oxygen.

[psusi]

10 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The pipes out of your toilets, shower, and sinks are T's.  This means that when liquid reaches the T, if there is any other packet there, it will stall and wait for the other packet to go first.  This can lead to a backup in the line.  The bridge allows the packets to merge without alternating.  If your layout works for you, that's great. I'm just pointing out that I've had problems with how you set things up and how I resolved my issues. 

You have that completely backwards.  A normal pipe will merge the packets and a bridge, like all buildings, will only output if the destination pipe is totally empty.

4 hours ago, thejams said:

You also need to sort out your power asap.  Start using the Oil refinery and setup a Petroleum generator.  Build some kind of a power tower with multiple generators inside (Petroleum, NGG, Coal) connected with heavy watt wires.  Have multiple conductive wire branches going out towards your consumers each via 2 small transformers like this:

I already have more than enough power, and why the heck would you connect two transformers to the same circuit?  I have never had any issues with one fully powering a conductive circuit.

2 hours ago, Parusoid said:

Can't I just submerge them in shallow water, since they can take water from proximity, and use automatic grabbers to grab the bottles?

The bottles only appear when a dupe comes and takes the ph20 out of the terreriam.

[Parusoid]

13 minutes ago, psusi said:

The bottles only appear when a dupe comes and takes the ph20 out of the terreriam.

I thought bottles still simply drop from terrariums 

[thejams]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

I already have more than enough power, and why the heck would you connect two transformers to the same circuit?  I have never had any issues with one fully powering a conductive circuit.

The small transformer can only provide 1KW to the outside circuit and the conductive wire can carry 2KW.  So if you want to provide 2KW to the circuit you need to connect 2 small transformers.  With 1 your machines can start running out of power intermittently as soon as consumption goes above 1KW which is pretty easy to do considering you have 1,2KW machines connected.

IMO your power production is severely inadequate, however it depends a lot on the pace you want to play.  TBH, and I mean no offense, there is nothing stopping you in continuing the map at the snail pace you have been playing it so far, but if you're looking to improve the speed, you will need a lot more production and a lot more power.

[Parusoid]

17 minutes ago, thejams said:

They consume as much as they need to produce.  I was discussing production for 1 (normal) dupe consuming 100g/s of Oxygen.

OK but this just wnet in completely different direction. I was just giving solution to the problem of labor caused by servicing terrariums 

[Neotuck]

5 hours ago, thejams said:

Have multiple conductive wire branches going out towards your consumers each via 2 small transformers like this:

This is not the first time I seen some one suggest using 2 small transformers to make a 2kW circuit for conductive wires

Is that more or less effective than using a normal transformer automated with a smart battery? (what I usually use)

sometimes I even plant a wheeze for temp control

[Oozinator]

18 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

This is not the first time I seen some one suggest using 2 small transformers to make a 2kW circuit for conductive wires

Is that more or less effective than using a normal transformer automated with a smart battery? (what I usually use)

sometimes I even plant a wheeze for temp control

I bet they do it to get to the 2000 W limit - conductive wire..

[thejams]

33 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

This is not the first time I seen some one suggest using 2 small transformers to make a 2kW circuit for conductive wires

Is that more or less effective than using a normal transformer automated with a smart battery? (what I usually use)

Well I guess that works as long as the average consumption is less than 1KW...