Sustainability for more than 8 dupes - how the hell?

[psusi]

10 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

@psusi you can still try sleet wheat farming you just have to do some extra steps for the dirt

For example you can trade up with mushrooms

If you have a sustainable mushroom farm (morb and puft ranching) you can store them in PO to let them rot 

Then compost the rot piles

Yes, but won't that only give you like 5 kg per cycle?

11 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

But buried vents can be anything, including extra cool steam vents!

So I guess I got gipped with a second gold volcano instead of a third steam vent or a slush would have been better.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

17 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yes, but won't that only give you like 5 kg per cycle?

So I guess I got gipped with a second gold volcano instead of a third steam vent or a slush would have been better.

Yes. I don't know if you used debug mode to look around to be 100%, but it's indeed possible you had an overlap. Map generation can be buggy.

[psusi]

1 minute ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Yes. I don't know if you used debug mode to look around to be 100%, but it's indeed possible you had an overlap. Map generation can be buggy.

Why do you say that?

32 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Every map is guaranteed 4 vents unburied.

2 cool steam

1 natural gas

1 natural gas or chlorine (50:50 chance)

Sometimes a POI will overlap one of these vents perventing them from fully spawning

But buried vents can be anything, including extra cool steam vents!

I got the chlorine instead of the natgas.  How many other ones are you supposed to get?  I've got po2 and 2 gold.  Should there be a 4th buried one?

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

Why do you say that?

I got the chlorine instead of the natgas.  How many other ones are you supposed to get?  I've got po2 and 2 gold.  Should there be a 4th buried one?

Well, the options either are you missed out on one unburied cool steam geyser, or one got removed due an other type of geyser overlapping it. A quick check in debug mode (revealing the map) could quickly bring clarity on that.

I believe next to the 4 'fixed' ones, you are to get I believe 6 random generated geyser types.

[Neotuck]

21 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yes, but won't that only give you like 5 kg per cycle?

Every kcal of food give 1 gram of dirt and every dustcap gives 2400 kcal every 7.5 cycles

After some calculations I have determined it would take 15-16 dustcaps to support 1 sleet wheat with 5kg dirt per cycle

This is still possible with a massive morb and puft ranch but you risk a drop in FPS and start to lag

[psusi]

1 minute ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

Well, the options either are you missed out on one unburied cool steam geyser, or one got removed due an other type of geyser overlapping it. A quick check in debug mode (revealing the map) could quickly bring clarity on that.

So there are supposed to be a total of 8 vents?

1 minute ago, Neotuck said:

Every kcal of food give 1 gram of dirt and every dustcap gives 2400 kcal every 7.5 cycles

After some calculations I have determined it would take 15-16 dustcaps to support 1 sleet wheat with 5kg dirt per cycle

This is still possible with a massive morb and puft ranch but you risk a drop in FPS and start to lag

Yikes.  Is that with or without fertilizer?  If without, then adding that might make it workable since you would only need 7-8 mushrooms per sleet wheat, which 5 pufts fed by 15 morbs can maintain.  Yea, no.. that would mean trading in 1.34 mushrooms to feed one dupe for 1.34 / 7 = 0.1914 sleet wheat, or less than 1/6th as much food.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

9 minutes ago, psusi said:

So there are supposed to be a total of 8 vents?

There are supposed to be 10 vents (if I was correct): the 4 standard ones, and then 6 random ones. Not withstanding any of them bugging out of course.

[TOOK14]

@psusi  Here's how I sustain 16 dupes indefinitely, it's far from the only way, but hopefully you get something useful from it.  First let me say, you don't NEED more dupes, and I recommend only taking on as many as you want to get work done at the pace you want.  More dupes only really mean the game progresses faster, for better and worse.

Most importantly, plumbed toilets are water positive, and you can just run the output through a sieve to refill all your sinks, showers, and toilets. Perhaps a bit immersion breaking to be using germ filled water to clean up, but mechanically there's no issues, as sinks and showers don't transfer germs.  This has the double benefit of making your plumbed bathroom cost only power and some sand/regolith, and give you a bit of germy water, your choice of clean or polluted, depending on which end of the sieve you pull the excess from(which you have to do, otherwise it'll back up and stop working).

The second big thing is to pull water from natgas and petrol generators.  I have yet to dive into cooking oil the hard way, so I won't make a case for nat gas or petrol as the best to focus on, but I will say that nat gas gens are a bit more convenient as they don't heat up as much, and they produce CO2 through a gas pipe, saving resources on pumping and filtering, while petrol gens give more resources per sec per gen.  I HIGHLY recommend setting up a slickster ranch to turn all that otherwise pretty useless CO2 that you constantly get from those gens into more oil, which in turn means more fuel for the gens, meaning more water. 
 

On the note of how to get renewable dirt, boil Pwater. and you get dirt as well as steam.  I like to use aquatuners to do this, as you can use the coolant(I recommend Pwater) to condense the steam, and because Pwater has such high thermal mass, the system ends up net heat negative, meaning you can get the clean water cooler than the initial Pwater, or cool something else. 

 

Last but not least, never discount any geyser, no matter how useless it seems, at the very least you can use it to feed some critter or another for more meat.  Chlorine in particular has gotten far more use recently with gassy moos, meaning that chlorine geyser ends up being another nat gas geyser in extreme late game.

 

The trick of the game IMO is to make the most out of whatever you have, and never treating anything as a true waste product.  Everything has a use, it's just a matter of how to make the best of it.

[Neotuck]

16 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yikes.  Is that with or without fertilizer?  If without, then adding that might make it workable since you would only need 7-8 mushrooms per sleet wheat, which 5 pufts fed by 15 morbs can maintain.  Yea, no.. that would mean trading in 1.34 mushrooms to feed one dupe for 1.34 / 7 = 0.1914 sleet wheat, or less than 1/6th as much food.

My calculations was without fertilizer

Remember fertilizer requires dirt too so if the objective is composting then fertilizer will do more harm than good

[Mariilyn]

20 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Every kcal of food give 1 gram of dirt and every dustcap gives 2400 kcal every 7.5 cycles

After some calculations I have determined it would take 15-16 dustcaps to support 1 sleet wheat with 5kg dirt per cycle

This is still possible with a massive morb and puft ranch but you risk a drop in FPS and start to lag

I'm almost certain that a 2400 kcals mushroom weigh only 1 kg (or was it changed?). And each dusk cap needs 4 kg of slime per cycle. It would be more efficient to directly cook the slime into dirt.

[TOOK14]

I just harvest wild sleet wheat and pincha.  I find that once you've dug access to most of the map, if you have priorities set up correctly, auto harvest will fill your fridge nicely.

[Neotuck]

4 minutes ago, Mariilyn said:

I'm almost certain that a 2400 kcals mushroom weigh only 1 kg (or was it changed?). And each dusk cap needs 4 kg of slime per cycle. It would be more efficient to directly cook the slime into dirt.

You might be right, I'll have to check on that when I get off work 

[psusi]

1 hour ago, TOOK14 said:

Most importantly, plumbed toilets are water positive, and you can just run the output through a sieve to refill all your sinks, showers, and toilets. Perhaps a bit immersion breaking to be using germ filled water to clean up, but mechanically there's no issues, as sinks and showers don't transfer germs.  This has the double benefit of making your plumbed bathroom cost only power and some sand/regolith, and give you a bit of germy water, your choice of clean or polluted, depending on which end of the sieve you pull the excess from(which you have to do, otherwise it'll back up and stop working).

Of course.. been using toilets since like cycle 50... I would think that anyone at nearly 750 cycles would have those.

1 hour ago, TOOK14 said:

The second big thing is to pull water from natgas and petrol generators.  I have yet to dive into cooking oil the hard way, so I won't make a case for nat gas or petrol as the best to focus on, but I will say that nat gas gens are a bit more convenient as they don't heat up as much, and they produce CO2 through a gas pipe, saving resources on pumping and filtering, while petrol gens give more resources per sec per gen.  I HIGHLY recommend setting up a slickster ranch to turn all that otherwise pretty useless CO2 that you constantly get from those gens into more oil, which in turn means more fuel for the gens, meaning more water. 

I don't seem to be getting much pwater from the natgas generator.  Maybe if I didn't bother auto shutting it off when my batteries are full.. it also doesn't produce enough CO2 to keep slicksters very well.  I currently have 4 molten ones and they are constantly starving even though they are not groomed.  AFAIK, the CO2 -> petrol -> CO2 loop with molten slickster and petrol generator is massively CO2 negative, so slicksters seem to just provide a tiny bonus amount of water and really are more of a convenient way to get rid of CO2.  Rather than slicksters, it seems the way to gain water with a petrol generator is to throw away the power and use water in an oil well to get more oil to burn in the gens for more water.

1 hour ago, TOOK14 said:

On the note of how to get renewable dirt, boil Pwater. and you get dirt as well as steam.  I like to use aquatuners to do this, as you can use the coolant(I recommend Pwater) to condense the steam, and because Pwater has such high thermal mass, the system ends up net heat negative, meaning you can get the clean water cooler than the initial Pwater, or cool something else. 

They nerfed the extra thermal capacity of pwater with the rocketry update.  Now boiling it is pointless.

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

Remember fertilizer requires dirt too so if the objective is composting then fertilizer will do more harm than good

True.  Either way it isn't even close to being worth it to compost mushrooms for dirt to grow sleet wheat.

 

[0xFADE]

2 hours ago, Neotuck said:

Every kcal of food give 1 gram of dirt and every dustcap gives 2400 kcal every 7.5 cycles

After some calculations I have determined it would take 15-16 dustcaps to support 1 sleet wheat with 5kg dirt per cycle

This is still possible with a massive morb and puft ranch but you risk a drop in FPS and start to lag

Yikes sleet wheat takes too much dirt.  I was thinking maybe i'd grow some but hell no.  I'm going to have to put more priority on maintaining natural plants.  I already leave all pincha pepper alone unless I really need to build something there but I didn't avoid sleet wheat as much.

[psusi]

Just now, 0xFADE said:

Yikes sleet wheat takes too much dirt.  I was thinking maybe i'd grow some but hell no.  I'm going to have to put more priority on maintaining natural plants.  I already leave all pincha pepper alone unless I really need to build something there but I didn't avoid sleet wheat as much.

Wait, don't sleet wheat seeds auto plant themselves if you drop them on snow?

[Neotuck]

2 minutes ago, psusi said:

True.  Either way it isn't even close to being worth it to compost mushrooms for dirt to grow sleet wheat.

 

Cooking the slime into dirt seems more effective.  You said you found a second gold volcano so it wouldn't be hard to set up a cooker

[0xFADE]

I'm not sure.  I don't think they do.  At least mushrooms didn't after trying to passive plant some several months ago.

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

Wait, don't sleet wheat seeds auto plant themselves if you drop them on snow?

No, only wheeze warts do that

[Segato]

8 hours ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

What is the conversion rate of sour gas to natural gas (methane)?

Boiling oil to petroleum will net you a net profit of 25% of water. Meaning every 1kg of water you put into an oil well, will eventually net 1250kg of polluted water if you boil oil into petroleum (which is a 1:1 conversion). Also, that 1kg of water nets you 250g of CO2, which is another 125g of petroleum through molten slicksters, which is an additional 46,875g of water.

If I assume the conversion rate of sour gas to natural gas is 66% (so a mass loss of 33% which goes to sulfur), you will actually have a net profit of 66% of water (because the natural gas generators yield much more water per amount of burnable mass). CO2 production is 166.5g, which when converted to natural gas yields down the line an additional 41.21g water.

Is there any guide to this process, sounds interesting but at the same time hard to achieve.

[Neotuck]

6 minutes ago, Segato said:

Is there any guide to this process, sounds interesting but at the same time hard to achieve.

I made one, just search "sour gas refinment"

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

4 minutes ago, Segato said:

Is there any guide to this process, sounds interesting but at the same time hard to achieve.

I have to put in practice myself. There are build topics enough around though.

[psusi]

23 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Cooking the slime into dirt seems more effective.  You said you found a second gold volcano so it wouldn't be hard to set up a cooker

True.  Cooking slime into dirt makes growing sleet wheat only slightly worse than mushrooms.  But wait, when it cooks it turns into a solid tile and you have to dig it up and lose half of it don't you?  So no...

[Neotuck]

14 minutes ago, psusi said:

True.  Cooking slime into dirt makes growing sleet wheat only slightly worse than mushrooms.  But wait, when it cooks it turns into a solid tile and you have to dig it up and lose half of it don't you?  So no...

True it will be halfed but remember morb puft ranching yeilds free slime so it might be worth it.

Too bad you don't have a PW or Slush geyser.  Making dirt is easy with a sieve / compost pile combo

[Zarquan]

One thing to note is how great oil wells are.  Especially if you convert the oil in to natural gas.  An oil well produces 1855.36 g/s water, so a profit of 855.36 g/s water, and the ability to support about 18.6 slicksters. 

The water can be electrolyzed to produce 760.2 g/s oxygen.

The slicksters will produce a large amount of food either through eggs or bbq (with wild pinchapepper) or omelettes.  18.6 slicksters produce around 3 eggs per cycle.  3 eggs per cycle is around 12,000 kcal/cycle in bbq or around 6,000 kcal/cycle in eggs. 

So, you can pretty much support 8 dupes on a single oil well if you optimize it, or 12 if you have enough wild pinchapepper and all your dupes have deeper diver's lungs.

This doesn't even take in to account the CO2 from other sources, just the results of this closed system.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

True it will be halfed but remember morb puft ranching yeilds free slime so it might be worth it.

Not free; it takes rancher labor and much more importantly, a ****load of lag inducing morbs.  Yea, I guess I need to try a new map that hopefully has a pw or slush.