Abyssalite Pipes vs Abyssalite pipes

[jfc]

So after spending tons of abyssalite building insulated pipes i just noticed the abyssalite pipes only cost 25 each and has 0 conductivity? Is this intended? Otherwise it's just a waste of resources on insulated

[Christophlette]

The 0 conductivity you see on abyssalite is not really true. There is still a slight conductivity in abyssalite like 0.0001 or so.

But the main point between insulated pipes or not is the way the heat exchange is calculated.

When the pipe is not insulated and made of abyssalite and want to exchange with a material that has a conductivity of 1. The resulting exchange will be the sum of the 2 conductivity divided by 2. So 0.0001+1 /2 ~ 0.5. That is a lot for abyssalite.

Though for insulated pipes in the same situation. The result is not the same at all. The abyssalite conducitivy is divided by 100 if I recall right. And the calculation is totally different resulting in a heat conductivity between the two materials closer to the heat conductivity of the abyssalite. So 0.0001.

Here is my grasp of the concept. Even though numbers may not be the right ones, the principle stay the same and insulated pipes are way better than normal. Even if both are made of abyssalite. But you may want to use insulated igneous rock or ceramic if you want a material in between abyssalite and  igneous rock.

[FierceClaws]

i think normal abyssalite pipes interact with the pipe itself and exchange temperature but for casual uses it should be fine

if you really want no temp exchange then use insulated abyssalite

 

[Tobruk]

Out of two interacting materials, the one with lower thermal conductivity is chosen if one of them is insulated.

Out of two interacting materials, the average is chosen if none of them are insulated.

[Cypher-7]

I thought a while back they changed it so the interaction between two objects was calculated using logarithmic mean not averages. Now I have no idea how that math works so maybe someone can shine some light on it? I thought the change was specifically for interactions with abyssalite because of the large differences in conductivity. 

[greggbert]

LOL I use insulated pipes instead of plain abyssalite because they are a different color and no other reason.  Makes it easier to see the gaps in my insulation during the mid-game when I'm making a lot of changes.

[TheScaryOne]

IIRC, if you're running pipes behind tiles you want insulated, even abyssalite, to stop transference with the block.

[Sasza22]

6 hours ago, greggbert said:

I use insulated pipes instead of plain abyssalite because they are a different color and no other reason.

Insulated pipes take 400 kg per tile instead of 25. That`s a pretty big difference. Especially earlygame.

[MTzu]

9 hours ago, Tobruk said:

Out of two interacting materials, the one with lower thermal conductivity is chosen if one of them is insulated.

Out of two interacting materials, the average is chosen if none of them are insulated.

Where did you get this information? Is this somewhere in the game? Because if you hover over thermal conductivity it still says "Between two objects, the rate of heat transfer will be detirmined by the object with the lowest thermal conductivity"

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 minutes ago, MTzu said:

Where did you get this information? Is this somewhere in the game? Because if you hover over thermal conductivity it still says "Between two objects, the rate of heat transfer will be detirmined by the object with the lowest thermal conductivity"

It was in one of the update posts around the time that there were "abysallite nurf broke my base" posts.  Before that point, ALL thermal interactions used the lowest of the two conductivities.  Then they changed it to use a log average between the two materials.  But, when they did that, then abysallite no longer protected cold zones from hot zones on the map. So they did several changes in a short time frame and the final one told us that "insulators use the lowest, everything else uses the average."

[MTzu]

 

@KittenIsAGeek

Standard abyssalite tiles still are perfect insulators. Tiles surrounding my volcano still are at 45°C after 400 cycles or so. Abyssalite buildings like ladders are not.

This is really confusing. Especially because there is no ingame notice. I even created a topic in the bug section because of this.

[KittenIsAGeek]

@MTzu I stated that at one point when they were messing around with things, Abyssalite was NOT a perfect insulator.  Heat would transfer because it would take the average of the two.  They changed things several times, and one of the last posts while they were changing things was that insulators now use the lowest conductivity between two elements and everything else uses the average.

 

[Tobruk]

27 minutes ago, MTzu said:

Where did you get this information? Is this somewhere in the game? Because if you hover over thermal conductivity it still says "Between two objects, the rate of heat transfer will be detirmined by the object with the lowest thermal conductivity"

The description is not up to date sadly.

[abud]

1 hour ago, MTzu said:

Where did you get this information? Is this somewhere in the game? Because if you hover over thermal conductivity it still says "Between two objects, the rate of heat transfer will be detirmined by the object with the lowest thermal conductivity"

Unless there is more recent update that I didn't aware of, I believe this update still relevant

On 5/2/2018 at 1:30 AM, Ipsquiggle said:

Thermal conductivity is now a log-average instead of an average

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_mean

[wachunga]

I've been running tests on pipes and the heat transfer equation for pipes and the fluids inside seems to be:

q = k * dT * 10. Per tick.

For radiant/normal pipes, k is the arithmetic average ((a+b)/2) of the conductivities of the pipe and fluid. For insulated, k is the lower of the two conductivities. dT is the difference in temperature. q is the heat transferred, divide by mass and SHC of the fluid to get it's temperature change. Do the same for the pipe but then multiply that amount by 5 because buildings are weird like that.

Everything I've tested so far can be accurately predicted using that equation, rounding and display errors notwithstanding. If anyone gets something different please let me know. I was trying the same for tile/tile interactions but there is clamping involved and it appears that clamping is buggy so unraveling it is a bit obnoxious.

[greggbert]

On 9/8/2018 at 4:13 PM, Sasza22 said:

Insulated pipes take 400 kg per tile instead of 25. That`s a pretty big difference. Especially earlygame.

Igneous rock and sandstone are cheap.  And the early game I don't have enough morale for a level 2 miner, and the side effect is that my dupes don't have to sweep if they're turning litter into pipes!

But seriously I wish klei would just give us a different color for abysslite pipes in the plumbing/vents views.

[BlueLance]

On 09/09/2018 at 1:35 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

@MTzu I stated that at one point when they were messing around with things, Abyssalite was NOT a perfect insulator.  Heat would transfer because it would take the average of the two.  They changed things several times, and one of the last posts while they were changing things was that insulators now use the lowest conductivity between two elements and everything else uses the average.

 

I remember that update, was insane XD thankfully they changed it fairly quickly because even insulated tiles rapidly changed temp.

[goatt]

On 9/8/2018 at 7:49 AM, Christophlette said:

The abyssalite conducitivy is divided by 100 if I recall right.

Where do you find the numbers? I am very interested.

[Christophlette]

5 hours ago, goatt said:

Where do you find the numbers? I am very interested.

I can't recall and find it sadly. Someone on the forum wrote that. I can't say it's true at 100% but as the insulated tile works that way, I assume the insulated pipe works the same.

If you find a source for that, or a source for the opposite, I'd be glad to read it too or read it again if it was the one I found a while ago.