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And now for something completely different: “fixed” variable temperatures should go away.


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The main culprit and target of this post are the nat-gas and petrol generators.

You feed them gas/petrol, and they output CO2 and pH2O at the temperature of the generator.

Which makes no sense, especially if those generators are cold.

These are internal combustion engines. They burn their inputs to generate electricity!

Not to mention the input gas/petrol may be at any temperature from below freezing to (more likely) beyond boiling, but the generators ignore that temperature entirely just because the machines are pre-chilled/pre-warmed.

Near-boiling petrol that can get you near-frozen pH2O outputs just because the generators are purposely placed in a cold biome doesn’t make any whit of sense. Getting CO2 cold enough to cause frostbite on top of the electricity you get from burning things make even less sense.

Even if the generators do generate heat themselves, they should not be allowed to give out a cold output under any circumstances. Not the current almost-afterthought-like mere “X watts of heat generated” slapped onto the generators with an output that could be cold enough to chill yourself some icebergs

Just like electrolysers and hydrogen generators, these two generators should in fact have a fixed temp output! A high one! Heat should be properly applied to outputs for the player to deal with, not instantly deleted by the “good” base design aka exploit of placing the generator beside a crop of wheezeworts!

Klei should fix this ASAP!

(PS: While I run the risk of invoking Poe’s law, aka a parody of extremism sounds exactly like extremism itself... chew on this and think for a bit?)

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Man, it's a game. Not all the people who play are very aware of those details and many are casual players.
Why is Klei going to bother his users with a lack of control over the increase in temperature?
So it's not Klei's obligation to change this kind of thing because it bothers a few people a lot.

There are too many issues like this and nobody takes into account the important points.
1. It's a game.
2. There are players who play very occasionally and do not want to stress because everything is suddenly hot.
3. Klei is not obligated to change anything.

Understand it.

And yes, many things in the game do not make sense. And what does it matter?
It's still fun and it's even interesting to discover those little mechanics "far away from reality" that make the game even more special.

 

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You write of logic and do not complain that you are in space and there are no cats? ...incomprehensible

I think the game is as balanced as it is good. If Klei would take the player these cooling options, one could also replace the temperature overlay with a consistent red.

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10 minutes ago, erso said:

You write of logic and do not complain that you are in space and there are no cats? ...incomprehensible

I think the game is as balanced as it is good. If Klei would take the player these cooling options, one could also replace the temperature overlay with a consistent red.

You haven't found the cats yet?

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2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

Man, it's a game.

It's a "space-colony simulation game", so it should try to "simulate" how things actually work.

2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

Not all the people who play are very aware of those details and many are casual players.

That's a very good reason to actually have realistic behavior of those machines - players will learn things about the real world. That's one good thing about games - you learn more things about the real world through them. The more made-up stuff the game has - the further away it is from a simulation and the less "useful" things you can learn from it.

2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

Why is Klei going to bother his users with a lack of control over the increase in temperature?

Maybe because they already bothered us with the same lack of control in other machines - the electrolyzer and the water sieve re obvious examples(and there are many more)? Or maybe because they bothered to implement many other things that make the game harder, but are part of how things work in real life (e.g. logic gate activation delay

2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

So it's not Klei's obligation to change this kind of thing because it bothers a few people a lot.

"a few"? It will bother anyone that is trying to use this machine. Maybe the machine should have info regarding the input/output temperature parameters, so players don't need to open a debug/sandbox game every time they need to use a new machine?

2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

There are too many issues like this and nobody takes into account the important points.
1. It's a game. It's a simulation game - it should simulate with some degree of realism at least the non-imaginary things that are taken from the real world - otherwise it's not a simulation game.
2. There are players who play very occasionally and do not want to stress because everything is suddenly hot. Oh, so you think those players will stress from a nat-gas/ petrol generator that is used in cycle 100+, but they won't be stressed from morale expectations, water shortage, dirt shortage, other heating buildings or simply oxygen shortage, all of which come before that? That's funny!
3. Klei is not obligated to change anything. And yet they have changed many things, for example heat exchange rules and the drip cooling  bug, so from that point of view this is a valid suggestion 

 

2 hours ago, Mr.Trueba said:

And yes, many things in the game do not make sense. And what does it matter?
It's still fun and it's even interesting to discover those little mechanics "far away from reality" that make the game even more special.

It's interesting to see how logic gates work(and in which cases they don't work) or how heat transfer works(and when it doesn't work - e.g. vacuum), but it's not fun to discover unrealistic temperature connections that lead to unrealistic solutions.

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Casual players need effective and easy ways to cool stuff down. 

Hardcore players need a challange. 

Currently game only has options regarding difficulty by stress and immune system. As long as it is so, you will keep having different opinions on stuff like these. 

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You're right @martosss, I do not know what I was thinking. Maybe I need to change the way I understand and enjoy a video game.
Or I do not know, maybe I failed in life by not learning to take things more seriously.

What you said that use the sandbox mode every time you want to use a new machine, sorry, but it's absurd.
At what point did we forget to take the time to observe and learn?
Do you want to try something? Build it!
Did not work? Build again!
You already did everything perfect and it did not work like in real life? What a disappointment, but let me tell you that it is a videogame, and if people really understood the concepts of those who complain so much in real life, they would know that they will not be so easy to put in a game. Much less if we talk about a studio like Klei, which is not so big, that you have other games in development and that you are learning along with us.

It is also a game in development. Many people complain as if Klei had deceived them by giving them something different from what they bought. Maybe as people do not take the time to see and learn, they did not take the time to read that "the game can change over time".

And no, sorry, a game is not necessarily to learn things from the real world and Klei never said that this would be an educational game.
Do you want to learn thermodynamics, fluid mechanics and electronics? There are several very good books that you can read, and in a couple of weeks at the most you will learn everything that this game can teach you (because in reality the concepts are very basic, the difficult thing is to model it within a program).

I do not know, my perception is different to many people here who complain bitterly about any minimal new thing they discover and do not like.

But hey, it's a free world. Just as they like to complain about "everything a simulator should have because it has to be like in real life", I like to enjoy an unreal game, of unreal dudes, printed in a portal in an unreal way, eating meat of unreal laervas that defecate oil unreally in an asteroid where thermodynamics is also unreal.

Anyway. I respect your way of seeing things.
I repeat, it's a free world.

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.... "a parody of extremism sounds exactly like extremism itself". *sigh*

To be fair, I think I went overboard with the Poe-ing.

That being said, you guys sure are supportive of a post who's tl;dr reads: "forget working around the problem, just make that existing machine have fixed temperature outputs".

 

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5 minutes ago, MorsDux said:

Casual players need effective and easy ways to cool stuff down. 

Hardcore players need a challange. 

Currently game only has options regarding difficulty by stress and immune system. As long as it is so, you will keep having different opinions on stuff like these. 

Exactly! That is what is needed.

What if Klei put the game machine 360W that will cool the atmosphere and in return will create hot cubes of "any space object" to be able to relocate them elsewhere in your large asteroid?
Would it make sense? Of course not!
Would it help and be fun? Of course yes!
I do not know, the options are endless!

But no, because there are many people who complain that "that is not real", "it is cheating to use plants that cool the environment", "why does my 'person magically printed in space' breathe 100g/s of oxygen? "

People should be more tolerant and let Klei do his job. That it implements absurdly easy things for the new ones, and that creates real challenges for the veterans.

 

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Oh boy.  MST3K mantra comes to mind here.

A heat input in = heat input out system will end up boiling the rock we're on into a potato since it doesn't take into account all of thermodynamics.  With that being the case, we have fixed outputs (sieve, refinery, deoxydizers), machine outputs (petro/ngg, Outhouse, Rock Granulator), Heat transfers (Thermo Regulator/aquatuner), heat deleters (Coal/Hydrogen generators, Hatches... yes, hatches), input/output buildings (lavatory/shower/sinks), and heat generators, which is pretty much each piece of equipment.

If any one piece of equipment seems outrageous, sure, let's tune it.  But I do not personally want to get a degree in thermodynamics to enjoy the game.  I DO feel that each building's output should have an indicator of how it responds to its inputs so I don't have to reference this every time:

However, even Kerbal Space Program, one of the best simulators out there that doesn't require a Cray system or a license to operate a space shuttle to use, has a ton of shortcuts.  There's nothing wrong with them if they're obvious in game and they've been balanced for the game.

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4 hours ago, BlueLance said:

Out of curiosity, do they actually burn it ;) Think about it, what is missing?

Hehe, yea, they don't consume oxygen either.  In real life if you burned the hydrogen you got from electrolyzing water it would also consume all of the oxygen you got from it, and give you back the water... with less energy than it took you to electrolyze it in the first place.

 

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5 hours ago, BlueLance said:

Out of curiosity, do they actually burn it ;) Think about it, what is missing?

24 minutes ago, psusi said:

Hehe, yea, they don't consume oxygen either.  In real life if you burned the hydrogen you got from electrolyzing water it would also consume all of the oxygen you got from it, and give you back the water... with less energy than it took you to electrolyze it in the first place.

And this is why real life SUCKS

8 hours ago, martosss said:

It's a "space-colony simulation game", so it should try to "simulate" how things actually work.

Do I really need to point out other things that call themselves "simulations"? I don't think I need to go any further than Goat Simulator, and if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure that's not how goats work.

Spoiler

Although I could be wrong on that one...who knows what they get up to when we're not looking?

473307208961228810.png?v=1

 

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13 hours ago, lurkinglurker said:

Just like electrolysers and hydrogen generators, these two generators should in fact have a fixed temp output! A high one! Heat should be properly applied to outputs for the player to deal with, not instantly deleted by the “good” base design aka exploit of placing the generator beside a crop of wheezeworts!

Hydrogen generators don't produce output. And both Electrolysers and Hydrogen generators can be exploited to delete heat in a way that is just as unreal as the petrol and nat-gas generators.

There basically 3 ways ONI handles temperature outputs in this game. By input temperature, by machine temperature, or by fixed temperature. They are all as unrealistic as the other and have their own avenues of exploitation.
 

  • If by input temperature, then natural gas (which is already superior to petrol generators) is easy to chill to get it where you want it. You end up with the same issue of super cold output.
  • You've addressed machine temperatures.
  • Fixed temperatures means you can do things like thermally seal the building because the output will effectively keep things at a constant temperature. In the case of Petroleum and Natgas generators, you just delete the heat differently. The machines require no active cooling, because they're kept at a static temperature by their output. The P-H2O is sent to be sieved or otherwise destroyed, so that temperature is lost, and the coldness of the CO2 is actually a problem because it means it is way too cold to be sent to slicksters immediately. If it is hot, it is actually easier. And either way the Scrubber doesn't care. Using CO2 as a coolant is difficult in my experience because it is by itself a wonderful insulator.

A fixed temperature output on the generators are just as exploitable. And if you push it up too high, they become practically unusable for most people. Especially since you don't even need either generator to survive a game. You can go from Hydrogen and coal, to solar and be fine.

I guess people no longer like my Nifty Thing(TM). :(

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48 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

If by input temperature, then natural gas (which is already superior to petrol generators) is easy to chill to get it where you want it. You end up with the same issue of super cold output.

How are you going to chill the gas without dumping the heat somewhere else that can be deleted using one of the fixed output machines?

The only realistic way of getting rid of heat currently is to boil water and let it escape to the vacuum of space.

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2 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

Do I really need to point out other things that call themselves "simulations"? I don't think I need to go any further than Goat Simulator, and if I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure that's not how goats work.

 

 

Do not they work like this? If I always wanted to have a goat to take me flying around the city. :(
This is a cheat! I want my 3 dollars back because I feel cheated that goats do not scale buildings in real life! 

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The OP's suggestion is sensible because of the 3 different ways that buildings handle input/output temperatures, it is asking to remove the least logical one. Having only 2 ways of handling input/output temperatures is easier to understand for new players than 3. And the fixed temperature version could become "fixed or higher if input was hotter".

The issues with using temperature quirks for cooling have been discussed several times before on the forums and it's known that without them, it is difficult to deal with heat in the long term. That's why as part of these suggested fixes, it's high time for a radiator building that works better the more "space" it sees. Pipe a liquid through it and it will cool that liquid down. It's simple, believable, even realistic and adds another reason to use the space biome. And most importantly, it adds a way to deal with heat without resorting to quirks in the heat system.

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6 minutes ago, watermelen671 said:

We need more cooling buildings first, before we start working on fixing the heating buildings.

Insta-like.

 

No offense to those who think this way, but I do not know if they realize what they say.

As the quote says, "energy is not created or destroyed, it only transforms".

So, where do you think the energy ends when you create any kind of energy (either with water or with oil)?
Well, it ends up in the environment! And outside there is no atmosphere, 
only vacumm exists.
And I do not know if they do not realize it, but the asteroid is not so big as to be able to dissipate the energy produced without the dupes suffering like roasted chickens.

Basic thermodynamics gentlemen (and ladies)!

So yes, if you want to make the game more "real", but at the same time more friendly and not die of heat, it is necessary to create more unreal machines to cool the environment.

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21 minutes ago, Mr.Trueba said:

"energy is not created or destroyed, it only transforms".

Longhair Slicksters, AETN, Wheezeworts, Space...all of those break that quote.

Longhair Slicksters consume oxygen, and don't produce a waste product, which breaks conservation of mass. AETN and space destroy both mass and heat, and wheezeworts just destroy heat. And yet...this isn't a problem for you...why?

Spoiler

I get it. Suspension of disbelief.

But if you're okay with those that I listed, then why is the idea of adding in more heat deletion buildings so egregious? 

sculpt-think.png.5ea3d29364a32f2b11b1101b3a479350.png

 

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@watermelen671Because if they want the game temperatures to be very real, then we need to counterbalance them.
Yes, there are plants and an alien machine that cool, and that's fine!
In fact, we need more unreal things that compensate for everything they want to be "like in real life". Why? Because if we talk about reality, it is untenable to survive on an asteroid with these characteristics.
So the only thing I say is that we have to learn to be more tolerant and not be extremists. Because every post that complains that "everything in the game is not what it should be", I do not know what to expect, to die of heat in cycle 200 but be satisfied that the game is "very real"?

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21 minutes ago, Mr.Trueba said:

@watermelen671Because if they want the game temperatures to be very real, then we need to counterbalance them.
Yes, there are plants and an alien machine that cool, and that's fine!
In fact, we need more unreal things that compensate for everything they want to be "like in real life". Why? Because if we talk about reality, it is untenable to survive on an asteroid with these characteristics.
So the only thing I say is that we have to learn to be more tolerant and not be extremists. Because every post that complains that "everything in the game is not what it should be", I do not know what to expect, to die of heat in cycle 200 but be satisfied that the game is "very real"?

Y'know a game that had infinite possibilities as well as realistic physics and heat? No Man's Sky.

5b6b3a25cdd7c_AshkanSipp.png.2c8000e1e2a316df5f3add29ecf8e12c.png

Spoiler

And nobody really likes that game.

 

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@watermelen671Exactly! So I do not understand why people do not calm down and stop posting all the time with titles like "I just discovered this thing in the game, so it's not real life and Klei has to change ASAP".
It is a game, we have to enjoy it and continue to spend good hours with it.

And yes, who wants a super real game? For that, better work in real life, hahaha.

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3 hours ago, psusi said:

How are you going to chill the gas without dumping the heat somewhere else that can be deleted using one of the fixed output machines?

The only realistic way of getting rid of heat currently is to boil water and let it escape to the vacuum of space.

Natural Gas Generator consumes 90g/s Natural gas and produces 67.5 g/s polluted water. Over 2/3rds converted to polluted water.

Natural Gas: Specific Heat Capacity:2.191 (J/g)/K

Polluted water: Specific Heat Capacity:6 (J/g)/K

You could use thermoregulators cooled by the polluted water of the Natural Gas Generator to chill the natural gas going in and still end up with positive cooling ratio. Just as before. It would effectively be the same thing as cooling the building to produce chilled polluted water, but easier to build and maintain.

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6 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

Natural Gas Generator consumes 90g/s Natural gas and produces 67.5 g/s polluted water. Over 2/3rds converted to polluted water.

Natural Gas: Specific Heat Capacity:2.191 (J/g)/K

Polluted water: Specific Heat Capacity:6 (J/g)/K

You could use thermoregulators cooled by the polluted water of the Natural Gas Generator to chill the natural gas going in and still end up with positive cooling ratio. Just as before. It would effectively be the same thing as cooling the building to produce chilled polluted water, but easier to build and maintain.

Good point, but then instead of relying on magical fixed output machines to void heat, you are relying on magical generators that produce water without any oxygen.  And magical extra high heat capacity water at that.  I was thinking the OP's point was to go fully realistic.

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