Please do something about water sieve and electrolyzer

[blash365]

Just now, thewreckedangle said:

just wanted to say, i have over 2k hours and i've never built a SPOM or a borg cube or any of those things.

But you cool water with sieves and electrolizers, i pressume?

[thewreckedangle]

i cool the water with.. nothing? i cool the air with wheezworts or the base with ice sculptures

 

E: i try not to overly rely on the electrolyser. its a weird thing and i'm not entirely sure i understand it

[WanderingKid]

Just now, blash365 said:

But you cool water with sieves and electrolizers, i pressume?

I don't, but I currently use an awkward method of powerless cooling by sticking a bunch of 2ton ice chests into the water, and then use the water as a deliverable heat sink.  I've used pretty much everything though at one point or another, so I'm guilty of everything.  The Borg Cube however I just laughed past, though, and then ripped it apart again.  It caused me an ice age... in the oil biome.

[blash365]

11 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

i cool the water with.. nothing? i cool the air with wheezworts or the base with ice sculptures

 

E: i try not to overly rely on the electrolyser. its a weird thing and i'm not entirely sure i understand it

How do you produce oxygen then?

With algaes? Is your dupe count low enough to sustain it with pufts? Or are you living on your reserves?

By liquidizing polluted oxygen?

How do you make use of geysers that output hot temperatures? You choose to leave them dormant?

 

 

11 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

I don't, but I currently use an awkward method of powerless cooling by sticking a bunch of 2ton ice chests into the water, and then use the water as a deliverable heat sink.  I've used pretty much everything though at one point or another, so I'm guilty of everything.  The Borg Cube however I just laughed past, though, and then ripped it apart again.  It caused me an ice age... in the oil biome.

Cooling with ice is just exchanging the heat to ice/water. While perfectly acceptable (albeit pretty micro reliant), you'll have to agree that ice is a limited resource (in it's natural form) and therefore cooling with ice is not a sustainable method unless you can produce ice. And if you could produce ice, you could just skip the medium. So assuming you "generate" ice with ww or aetn, you will eventually arrive to the point where you can not produce the amount needed to - say - cool a geyser.

[WanderingKid]

6 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Cooling with ice is just exchanging the heat to ice/water. While perfectly acceptable (albeit pretty micro reliant), you'll have to agree that ice is a limited resource (in it's natural form) and therefore cooling with ice is not a sustainable method unless you can produce ice. And if you could produce ice, you could just skip the medium. So assuming you "generate" ice with ww or aetn, you will eventually arrive to the point where you can not produce the amount needed to - say - cool a geyser.

Oh, absolutely not.  I just decided to try to throw a wrench into what was becoming a rather serious conversation but that apparently was a poor idea. 

I do use ice though for a good 300-400 cycles for cooling down the base and using the cooled water in heat sinks, but that's absolutely not sustainable forever.  It does however now let me stick my dupes in VERY cold showers with the new changes so they can sink that coolness into the Electrolizer tempshifts while they bathe.

[SamLogan]

Quote

Water sieve should not output water at a static 40 degrees.

Ok so we need to fix the Steam Turbine that instant kill 100°C on it output.

[blash365]

The steam turbine does not produce fixed temperature output. So, no.

Steam goes in at x > 300° C. Steam goes out at y < x° C plus energy. It is basically a heat into energy transformer.

The fix needed for steam turbine might be the gas deletion thing or maybe some twirks of making it more usable, but temperature-wise it makes more or less sense.

[abud]

1 hour ago, blash365 said:

Steam goes in at x > 300° C. Steam goes out at y < x° C

Is this new changes? I don't want to involve in all this fixed temp controversy, but I want to know if there is any changes recently.

Last accurate list a few months ago, so it is possible something has changed since that time

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

There's nothing wrong with the two buildings you mentioned.  They're working just fine.  A down-side of using an electrolyzer is that you have to cool your oxygen if you want happy dupes (and plants!).  The pro side is that all you need is water and a hamster wheel and bam, you've got air.  For the filter, I've written at length how the operation of the sieve makes sense as well.  I'll skip to the TL;DR part: Reverse osmosis efficiency has a relationship with temperature.  There's a point where the temperature is high enough to be efficient and low enough to not melt the internal membrane.  So a consistent temperature output makes perfect sense.

As for "exploiting" the sieve to cool your base.. no, you're not.  Its not an exploit.  The building takes power to operate.  It generates heat while operating.  There's some future Dupe science inside that sieve that raises (or lowers) the temperature of the water to its most efficient point.  This requires power and results in heat radiating out into the world.  The only "magic" going on was figuring out that it could be used that way.  Wheezewarts use no power and remove heat.  The AETN uses power (in the form of hydrogen fuel) to destroy heat. Both the AETN and wheezewarts violate physics -- but the sieve does not.  

Finally, in response to your "HAVE to ALWAYS" comment.. no you don't.  You don't have to do anything.  I've built a base where I never used an electrolyzer.  My current base has a HUGE amount of surplus power, so the oxygen I produce is cooled by a pair of thermo regulators that are cooled by a slush geyser. I also built a base where I never built a sieve.  It isn't a requirement to do ANYTHING in this game.  You can build what you like and use it how you like.  If someone builds it different, good for them!  They're allowed to do so.  Your argument is like claiming that you purchased a Lego set and you're mad that the instructions only tell you how to build one particular thing.  Use your imagination.  Be creative.  Have fun playing the "what-if" game.  "What if I use a door to raise water and drown my hatches?  What if I use a gas valve to filter air?  What if I force all my dupes to cry me a river?"

If you don't like something the devs have done, that's fine.  I can respect that.  But please PLEASE stop calling things exploits that are no such thing.

[ShadowOfALegend]

if someone wants to build something, then by all means do so? 

I make SPOM's because I want to you can do the same if you feel like you need to

[Sevio]

8 hours ago, blash365 said:

The steam turbine does not produce fixed temperature output. So, no.

Steam goes in at x > 300° C. Steam goes out at y < x° C plus energy. It is basically a heat into energy transformer.

The fix needed for steam turbine might be the gas deletion thing or maybe some twirks of making it more usable, but temperature-wise it makes more or less sense.

It does output a static temperature of steam, so if you give it too much more than 500K input steam you'll be wasting energy:

It's just not obvous when you're running it since the output steam immediately gets averaged with the steam already there and also exchanges heat with the surrounding steam and the turbine.

[blash365]

7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Both the AETN and wheezewarts violate physics -- but the sieve does not. 

BS! AETN and WW are designed to be heat sinks. Their entire purpose in the game is to eat up heat. They might also have a decor bonus and the ability to consume hydrogen, but mostly they remove heat. When klei was creating a concept for these two elements of the game, the headline on their flipboard was heat deletion.They are limited and force the player to think on where to utilize them.

A sieve was most likely not designed to be a cooling (or heating) building. Its main purpose is to convert polluted to clean water. It also generates a certain amount of heat as all/most power consuming buildings do. As all/most buildings in the game it tries to conserve the mass by converting polluted water + sand to clean water + polluted dirt (800g/s difference between sand and dirt, which might be for balancing reasons). It would be if a sieve would output 5kg water no matter how much input you would pipe in. So the mass-part of the sieve seems reasonable.

What seems to me as an unintended side-effect or at the very least a placeholder is the temperature change. The temperature of the output has no relation to the input. So 10°C water gets heated up by 30°, while 90°C water gets cooled down by 50°C. All with the same energy input for heating/cooling internally. The same is true for every other temperature (e.g. 40°C). And you say that does not violate physics...

 

1 hour ago, Sevio said:

It does output a static temperature of steam, so if you give it too much more than 500K input steam you'll be wasting energy

I wasn't aware of that. I'd add it to the list of buildings that need fixing then. It should cool its input, but output steam relative to its input temperature.

[Lutzkhie]

17 hours ago, enragedcamel said:

Water sieve should not output water at a static 40 degrees. The temperature of the output should depend on the temperature of the input. Cool polluted water should result in cool clean water

and cooling water will become super easy barely an inconvenience, wheres the challenge in that?

the process of electrolysis requires high temperature that is why oxygen is at 70c

[Oozinator]

2018 Humanity breakthrough- Humans discover tolerance in video games ^^

I built many different "objects" to get heating/cooling done and sure i use the fixed output from buildings.
Early game it's a nice thing, later on, i don't really need it and sometimes it even sucksz then (very much)!
Perhaps someting to research, to get a checkbox on buildings, to activate/deactivate fixxed temperature output?
 

[blash365]

2 hours ago, Oozinator said:

Early game it's a nice thing, later on, i don't really need it
 

So again: How do you cool geyser water without fix output temperatures?

Do we have a table somewhere for the heat equivalence of different devices assuming 100% efficiency (perfect uptime, perfect gas density)? e.g. AETN = 6 ww, coal generator = -2.25 ww, 1 aquatuner cooling pw = -15 ww (these numbers are not accurate).

Since we only have a limited number of wheeze worts on the map (which was already increased) as well as AETNs this should put a hard limit on the possible amount of devices we can set up by those means (resulting in a maximum colony size using only AETNs and WW).

That should answer the question of whether we can get around fix-output temperatures or not.

[thewreckedangle]

13 hours ago, blash365 said:

How do you make use of geysers that output hot temperatures? You choose to leave them dormant?

nope.
i use them as a "free" sieve. PW goes in, steams, and re condenses (lockers full of ice) as clean water. has been running like this for over 130 cycles now. this steam vent is pretty much IN the start biome

[blash365]

9 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

(lockers full of ice)

As already said using preexisting ice for cooling is fair, but not sustainable unless you found a way to generate ice that can not be used for cooling the geyser directly.

[thewreckedangle]

yeah. you just siphon off some amount of excess water and divert it to a cold zone. it will freeze, voila! same way i've done it for pretty much as long as it was able to be done.

[martosss]

9 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

yeah. you just siphon off some amount of excess water and divert it to a cold zone. it will freeze, voila! same way i've done it for pretty much as long as it was able to be done.

And when you dig that ice you get 50% return? And this seems efficient to you ?

What I'd do is send 70° water(from cool steam geysers) to electrolyzers, as they are supposed to take input at ~ that temperature. Same for sieve - give it ~40° Polluted water. And to cool stuff? Maximize ww/AETN efficiency - submerge them in 20kg Hydrogen and cool air/liquids with them. Additionally, you can heat polluted water to 40° before giving it to the sieve(or more if you want to exploit the fixed output).

[CrushedIce]

I like the idea with space radiators. They would give the space biome an additional use and we would get a legitimate way of cooling. Then the fixed output temp could be changed easily without making the game too much harder.

[thewreckedangle]

hasn't done me wrong so far.
there is always a huge excess of water, so losing some here and there really doesnt make much odds. i usually have about 5-8 of these tanks all at various stages of cold/ice. if i need specifically just cold water, then i just don't let it freeze. min-maxxing or calculating things out are not how i did this, nor how i play this game, nor how many play it. efficiency is a subjective term in this game. 

[blash365]

34 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

yeah. you just siphon off some amount of excess water and divert it to a cold zone. it will freeze, voila! same way i've done it for pretty much as long as it was able to be done.

The cold zone does not cool. The ice and wheeze worts in it will average out with other material you put in the zone. Eventually your ice biome will be just as warm as any other biome. So no more ice.

Hence it is not sustainable.

[thewreckedangle]

16 hours ago, thewreckedangle said:

just wanted to say, i have over 2k hours and i've never built a SPOM or a borg cube or any of those things.

 

1 hour ago, thewreckedangle said:

hasn't done me wrong so far.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[martosss]

Wasting water might work if you have more steam/water generation from geysers than dupes use. However, if you want to grow your colony and reach a maximum possible number of dupes that are self sustainable, you shouldn't waste water.

[thewreckedangle]

if i'm using it, and it works, its not "wasted". there is no reason why a person cant have a "fully grown colony" (whatever that means) with whatever number of dupes.
again, it seems like many of the vocal members here are the type to play this game with a spreadsheet and a calculator. really? ok. but please don't say that we who don't, aren't "playing the game right" if it works, it works.