Please do something about water sieve and electrolyzer

[enragedcamel]

Dear Devs,

By far the most insanely annoying and tedious thing about this game is managing heat.

I know people have come up with various cooling solutions, but I want to propose two fixes (yes, fixes) that will make life easier for everyone:

• Water sieve should not output water at a static 40 degrees. The temperature of the output should depend on the temperature of the input. Cool polluted water should result in cool clean water (maybe a few degrees hotter, but no more).
• Electrolyzer should similarly output gasses at a temperature based on the temperature of the water it uses. Cool water should result in cool oxygen/hydrogen (maybe a few degrees hotter). I don't want to have to build a SPOM involving wheezeworts EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. just to prevent my base from overheating.

I get that being able to manage heat effectively is an important part of the game, but the design of these two buildings is just too ridiculous (even if it is "intended"). Water sieve for instance is exploited regularly to COOL hot water. It's just silly.

Thank you for reading.

[trukogre]

1 hour ago, enragedcamel said:

Dear Devs,

By far the most insanely annoying and tedious thing about this game is managing heat.

I know people have come up with various cooling solutions, but I want to propose two fixes (yes, fixes) that will make life easier for everyone:

• Water sieve should not output water at a static 40 degrees. The temperature of the output should depend on the temperature of the input. Cool polluted water should result in cool clean water (maybe a few degrees hotter, but no more).
• Electrolyzer should similarly output gasses at a temperature based on the temperature of the water it uses. Cool water should result in cool oxygen/hydrogen (maybe a few degrees hotter). I don't want to have to build a SPOM involving wheezeworts EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. just to prevent my base from overheating.

I get that being able to manage heat effectively is an important part of the game, but the design of these two buildings is just too ridiculous (even if it is "intended"). Water sieve for instance is exploited regularly to COOL hot water. It's just silly.

Thank you for reading.

Design of electrolyzer is not ridiculous, real life electrolyzer most common design outputs hydrogen and oxygen at 70 C, even if you input cold water.  Design of electrolyzer is about the most realistic thing in the game, except that it uses thousands of times less power than it would take to split 1 kg/s of water    That's balanced out by dupes breathing in thousands of times more oxygen per second than humans do, though.

You don't have to build a SPOM.  I've never built a SPOM.  No one has to build a SPOM.  There are so, so many other ways to prevent your base from overheating.  Try them.

"Water sieve for instance is exploited regularly to COOL hot water. It's just silly."  It's not an exploit, it's intended behavior.  it is certainly silly, but since you admit that "being able to manage heat effectively is an important part of the game", then you should give a nonsilly replacement for water sieve cooling, not just propose removing it without replacement.  Currently ONI, if one abstains from "silly cooling", is quite unbalanced and lacking in cooling options, removing them doesn't actually "make life easier for everyone:", it makes life harder for everyone, although slightly less silly.

[enragedcamel]

20 minutes ago, trukogre said:

Design of electrolyzer is not ridiculous, real life electrolyzer most common design outputs hydrogen and oxygen at 70 C, even if you input cold water.  Design of electrolyzer is about the most realistic thing in the game, except that it uses thousands of times less power than it would take to split 1 kg/s of water    That's balanced out by dupes breathing in thousands of times more oxygen per second than humans do, though.

You don't have to build a SPOM.  I've never built a SPOM.  No one has to build a SPOM.  There are so, so many other ways to prevent your base from overheating.  Try them.

"Water sieve for instance is exploited regularly to COOL hot water. It's just silly."  It's not an exploit, it's intended behavior.  it is certainly silly, but since you admit that "being able to manage heat effectively is an important part of the game", then you should give a nonsilly replacement for water sieve cooling, not just propose removing it without replacement.  Currently ONI, if one abstains from "silly cooling", is quite unbalanced and lacking in cooling options, removing them doesn't actually "make life easier for everyone:", it makes life harder for everyone, although slightly less silly.

I know all of these things. I have 800 hours played. Please don't talk down to me.

[Nativel]

Devs know about this. I saw such discussions every time when some of us again became mad of this game and looking for some hardcore.

It's not only one, there is many of such posts - this one was last one.

[trukogre]

So you admit you're wrong, but with the caveat that you already knew it before I pointed it out?  Cool story bro.  I am sorry that you feel that me pointing out where you were wrong constitutes 'talking down to you".  I would point out that since you claim that you already knew all the mistakes I pointed out, that technically it's more you talking down to yourself, as I've been unwittingly dragged into some Mousetrappian 'play within a play' This all sounds like a lot of roleplaying that I'm not interested in, so I'm going to just pretend that you actually mean the things you write when you write them, and let you deal with the rest yourself.

 

p.s. Don't you think it's a little rich to respond so negatively to criticism based on your 'hours of gametime' of a post that contains the line "By far the most insanely annoying and tedious thing about this game is managing heat."  I didn't say anything you said was insane, annoying, or tedious, did I?  Compare your anger at being criticized in the way I did, and the feeling you had that you were being talked down to, and now imagine that I used the kind of language you did.  Now imagine the devs responding to your initial post: " I know all those things,  I have over 9000 hours in CODING and DESIGNING this game.  Please don't talk down to me".  I hope you can see the inconsistency here.

[enragedcamel]

1 hour ago, trukogre said:

So you admit you're wrong, but with the caveat that you already knew it before I pointed it out?  Cool story bro.  I am sorry that you feel that me pointing out where you were wrong constitutes 'talking down to you".  I would point out that since you claim that you already knew all the mistakes I pointed out, that technically it's more you talking down to yourself, as I've been unwittingly dragged into some Mousetrappian 'play within a play' This all sounds like a lot of roleplaying that I'm not interested in, so I'm going to just pretend that you actually mean the things you write when you write them, and let you deal with the rest yourself.

 

p.s. Don't you think it's a little rich to respond so negatively to criticism based on your 'hours of gametime' of a post that contains the line "By far the most insanely annoying and tedious thing about this game is managing heat."  I didn't say anything you said was insane, annoying, or tedious, did I?  Compare your anger at being criticized in the way I did, and the feeling you had that you were being talked down to, and now imagine that I used the kind of language you did.  Now imagine the devs responding to your initial post: " I know all those things,  I have over 9000 hours in CODING and DESIGNING this game.  Please don't talk down to me".  I hope you can see the inconsistency here.

Nice meltdown.

[leoroy]

Well, for the 2 problems you ask for you can easily solve them : I run -10 polluted water (from slush geyser) in a water sieve to produce almost 80% of all my water cumsomption. I just run to cool water in radiant pipes in the water tank used to keep the fresh water. With minimal automation I get a steady 20C water tank. Same thing applied for oxygen : if you use cold water in electro why don't you use it to cool the oxygen before feeding it to the electro? OK, it's a bit more complicated then having input = output, but it works and it's far from too-complicated

[blash365]

I agree that we need to get rid of the fix output temperatures in one of the next updates.

There are not many (sustainable) cooling factors in the game at the moment:

• fix input temperatures
• wheeze worts
• AETN
• Jettison to space
• Steam turbine
• PW -> Water boiler
• Hydrofan
• Consumption by critters

The fix input temperatures are the one making the least sense of them all (disclaimer: giving ww and aetn the benefit of doubt to be actual things existing in the oni universe). Yet they are quite powerful, scaleable and easy to setup.

Before we waited many updates for the drip cooling but and klei delivered. Now it's time to address the next quirk that just feels like a temporary solution. Having them for a time is fair, but eventually those things should be cleaned up.

That being said, i still think that the output temperature of an electrolizer should be around 70°C. It's simply a chemical reaction of water with input of energy that kicks in at a certain temperature. However having an input of higher temperature than 70°C should result in a higher output temperature (or prevent the process alltogether). Having a lower temperature input should increase the energy costs for the electrolysis.

The same for the sieve. It is ok if the sieve is meant to internally heat and cool down the water to kill germs and contamination. But those energy requirements should also scale with the input temperature.

Alternatively those buildings could have a temperature requirement on their inputs to force the players to achieve certain energy levels before using them. That however might be too hard to utilize in undeveloped bases.

[ALPHAP2712]

...So... why not run very hot p.water to water sieve and remove heat.

 

Yes, it some bad logic but logic like this make this game can run easier in this day.

 

This game have everything that make heat a lot  and have only little tree and 2-3 machine that can remove heat out.

 

If all thing in this game output in rule of termodynamic .So it will end with hotter and hotter.

 

So... l'am ok if they fix constrant temp output.if we have better solution to remove heat than now.

 

Sorry for my english.

[trukogre]

1 hour ago, enragedcamel said:

Nice meltdown.

Yes, I did melt your arguments down into a flaming pile of wreckage.  Thanks for the recognition! I had expected you to respond with some lame variation of "U mad, Bro?", but am happy to discover I was wrong.

[ImDaMisterL]

Remember to stay on topic everyone, and avoid targetting other members in your posts. That just brews a toxic environment and constructive discussion suffers from it.

[leoroy]

I don't know why, but it's the first time since I play ONI (alpha) that I see mods having to post in our topics to calm down people... what's happening???

Back to topic : i'm not a fan of the water sieve since I always have a slush geyser in my maps and I don't do big bases. Otherwise, I think removing the fixed output and adding radiations in space could balance heat management.

[enragedcamel]

1 hour ago, trukogre said:

Yes, I did melt your arguments down into a flaming pile of wreckage.  Thanks for the recognition! I had expected you to respond with some lame variation of "U mad, Bro?", but am happy to discover I was wrong.

You repeated things I already know, and then got mad when I told you to stop it.

Let's revisit your rebuttal points:

1. "Electrolyzer design is good because it's actually how it works IRL." - Quite irrelevant, since this is a game, not real life. Games are supposed to be fun, not tedious. If you re-read my original post, you will see that I didn't say anything about realism.

2. "You don't have to build a SPOM." - You kind of do actually if you plan to have bases that go for thousands of cycles. Algae is a limited resource. Water isn't. Hence, unlimited oxygen production is possible only via electrolysis.

3. "I have never built a SPOM." - Well then, you admit you don't know what you're talking about.

4. "Water sieve output temperature is intended." - Again it seems you didn't read (or maybe comprehend?) my original post. Something can be intended and still be broken. I gave reasons as to why the current design is broken, and going by the number of likes on my post, it's safe to say many people agree. All you responded with was "no it is fine, learn to play":

4 hours ago, trukogre said:

You don't have to build a SPOM.  I've never built a SPOM.  No one has to build a SPOM.  There are so, so many other ways to prevent your base from overheating.  Try them.

The above post is rude and condescending. Hence my comeback saying I'm an experienced player.

[Sevio]

@enragedcamel You seem to equate SPOM (Self-Powering Oxygen Module) with electrolyzers in general. The point trukogre was making with "no one has to build a SPOM" is that you can set up your oxygen production with electrolyzers in multiple different ways, and some of those ways even give you a far bigger surplus power than a SPOM ever can.

Try an open-air electrolyzer setup some time, you might be pleasantly surprised with all the power you can get from it.

[enragedcamel]

11 minutes ago, Sevio said:

@enragedcamel You seem to equate SPOM (Self-Powering Oxygen Module) with electrolyzers in general. The point trukogre was making with "no one has to build a SPOM" is that you can set up your oxygen production with electrolyzers in multiple different ways, and some of those ways even give you a far bigger surplus power than a SPOM ever can.

Try an open-air electrolyzer setup some time, you might be pleasantly surprised with all the power you can get from it.

You don't need a SPOM (obviously. I gave it as an example.) but you need a way to reliably cool the oxygen it generates. Otherwise it overheats your base.

Replace "SPOM" with "electrolyzer" and my argument still stands: it's a silly design decision to have buildings output stuff at a static temperature regardless of the temperature of the inputs (when the power they consume is static).

[trukogre]

" then got mad when I told you to stop it."

 

Just because your name starts with 'enraged' doesn't mean you get to decide for other people when they're enraged.  

20 minutes ago, enragedcamel said:

You don't need a SPOM (obviously. I gave it as an example.) but you need a way to reliably cool the oxygen it generates. Otherwise it overheats your base.

Replace "SPOM" with "electrolyzer" and my argument still stands: it's a silly design decision to have buildings output stuff at a static temperature regardless of the temperature of the inputs (when the power they consume is static).

You don't need to cool the oxygen, you just need to cool the base, or the oxygen, or anything that will balance out the heat flows eventually.

electrolyzer: that's not your argument still standing, that's a new argument: "electrolyzers should consume less energy when the inputs are hotter": I agree, that would be more realistic. For someone who claims to not care about realism, it's quite odd how often you make implicit reference to it. I.e., using the term 'silly' over and over, which basically is just a synonym for unrealism, or constantly saying this game process or that game process should work in a way which happens to be more realistic, just avoiding using the actual word realistic.

 

It seems like you and I really agree much more than we disagree, you just have an odd way of showing it.

[Grimgaw]

Try cooling your base and not oxygen one day.

[Sevio]

Static output temperatures have their problems, no doubt about that. The Water Sieve and electrolyzer are both quite old buildings and it's not hard to see how fixed output temps made sense when they were first implemented. They were drawbacks back then rather than benefits because we did not have the means to heat liquids enough with heat pump buildings!

Changing those output temps from fixed to a minimum would handily solve the that inconsistency now while keeping the drawback to deal with, but we'd need more solutions to deal with heat permanently. Such as radiators.

[blash365]

5 minutes ago, trukogre said:

using the term 'silly' over and over, which basically is just a synonym for unrealism

Silly is just an easy expression (mostly coming from non-native speakers for lack of better words) meaning "i dont like it" or "i dont see the logic in it".

Do we really need to open up a dictonary now to not cut each others throats?

[_Q_]

WW are your choice, lat game I was using WW with metal tiles and radiant pipe, this game I run radiant pipe trough water tank, next game I may run radiant pipe trough cold biome and so on and so forth, not like you really need to do anything around after you build it. 

[trukogre]

6 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Silly is just an easy expression (mostly coming from non-native speakers for lack of better words) meaning "i dont like it" or "i dont see the logic in it".

Do we really need to open up a dictonary now to not cut each others throats?

Silly comes from the German Seele, spiritual, which over time changed into silly, innocent, like a child at prayer, which then changed into silly, naive, like a young child playing with concepts they don't quite understand, which then changed into Silly, foolish, like a child making an avoidable mistake.  I agree, this sense is more of the "i don't see the logic in it', with the connotation that there's a certain logic derived from real world physics that ONI often follows and which people rely on to judge gameplay, except when they decide they don't want to consider realism and then they pretend that silly just means "i don't like it'.  I don't know whether we need to open up a dictionary not to cut each others throats, but if it would help I'm not against dictionaries.  I think perhaps common sense would be more useful, however.

[blash365]

2 minutes ago, trukogre said:

innocent, like a child at prayer, which then changed into silly, naive, like a young girl playing, which then changed into Silly, foolish, like a child making an avoidable mistake. 

Funny how you specify the gender only in one case. The one being related with intelligence.

How do you like it, when people overinterpret your posts for a change? Let's just stick to being constructive. Thanks.

[trukogre]

14 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Funny how you specify the gender only in one case. The one being related with intelligence.

How do you like it, when people overinterpret your posts for a change? Let's just stick to being constructive. Thanks.

Yeah I already noticed that and changed it before you responded.  I don't mind you joining me in noticing   I agree that noticing is the first step in being constructive.  Thanks.  I probably used the same pronouns that my linguistics professor did, as he did before me.  But you, and me, both noticed the gender iniquity and changed it to avoid giving the wrong impression. (stipulation: my linguistics professor was a genius, and I have no doubt he used the pronouns he did intentionally, to reflect the gender connotation of the time.  I.e., he used the female pronoun sometimes and a gender neutral pronoun elsewhere  because in the 18th century it was a word almost always applied to females, by the highly gender biased populace of that day, but in other centuries it was a word used in a more gender neutral way.  I removed it from my post because I didn't want to take the time to go into that much detail about it, and also because a decade later I'm a little fuzzy about the exact details of which gender attributions were made in which long passed century, but yea, good job catching that) Much unreason stems from similar unconscious reference, such as claiming to not care about reality in gameplay then constantly making implicit reference to conservation of energy and such.  I don't agree that paying attention to these unconscious implications is overinterpretation, in the above example it certainly wasn't, you just happened to interpret it incorrectly.

 

[Rainbowdesign]

The water sieve is perfect for water cooling especially if you have a hot polluted watertank with some aquatuners.

 

But if you want to have heat management harder there is a mod that fixes the water sieve.

[thewreckedangle]

just wanted to say, i have over 2k hours and i've never built a SPOM or a borg cube or any of those things.