Ugh the Heat! Can't deal with that!

[WanderingKid]

14 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

The only coolant i used for nat gas was the two wheezworts i really suck at cooling down things, deleting heat using radiants, anti enthropy machine, reusing cold elemnts to coold down hot strctures... its just too much for me at this level of my skills. I know the theories but im not able to effectively put them to practice

Could you give a description of what you're using all that power for? If it's not for temperature controls, I'm wondering why you need so much power. 

In theory, 12 dupes are 3 electrolizers, 2.2kg/H2O per second, at most ~400w each, mostly covered by the Hydrogen in power costs.  Half a sieve for fresh water if you haven't setup a cool steam geyser yet, maybe a couple of long term refrigerators and  a few grills, that'll add in ~600w.  Add in the sieve/skimmer for bursts of 360w for CO2 cleanup, and you should be running into at most around 2kW of power drain on average, allowing for spikes of power to the Rock Crusher/Metal Refinery, Exosuit charging, and manufacturing Exosuits/clothing.

[leoroy]

12 dupes = 1,2Kg/s. 2 electrolizers is more than 1.6Kg/s of O2. Am I right? If you really need to cool things down and your wheez aren't enough nor you have a slush geyser, you might try to use the aquatuner + sieve build (which I would only use if nothing else is sufficient)

What geysers have you found yet?

[abud]

1 hour ago, WanderingKid said:

outputs for the CO2 and the PH2O are both related to temperature of the input gas

I think output temp is same with generator temp, even when I feed them with really hot natgas. Ssst, it is another heat deletion

 

I suggest aquatuner for your heat problem Parusoid, they are so powerful. I only use one active aquatuner, but it is cooling down the entire base. All heat collected in polluted water which you can use for pincha, boil it for dirt, fertilizer maker, or just use sieves if you want. But it needs much power.

[WanderingKid]

59 minutes ago, leoroy said:

12 dupes = 1,2Kg/s. 2 electrolizers is more than 1.6Kg/s of O2. Am I right?

I don't trust electrolizers to put out more then 5/8 of their output continuously.  That has become my expectation for the output/O2.  It makes it easier for me as the power/cost ratios are the same, just I build an extra unit or two and make sure I have less issues.

30 minutes ago, abud said:

I think output temp is same with generator temp, even when I feed them with really hot natgas.

Sorry, you're absolutely right.  I just realized the base area I was getting my values from had standardized due to some radiant pipes I used to cool down the machine.

[Parusoid]

20 hours ago, WanderingKid said:

Could you give a description of what you're using all that power for

Well if you want a complete list of structures then it would be 3 liquid pumps 2 mini liquid pumps, 2 gas pumps, one mini gas pumpRock crusher, refrigeratior, two massage tables, grill, musher, few sweepers and receptacles, 4 lamps aquatuner, few gas and liquid shutoffs, fert maker, oil refinery, polymer press, sieve. That would be all i remember 

19 hours ago, leoroy said:

hat geysers have you found yet

Nat gas, cool steam, chlorine liquid iron and liquid carbon dioxide 

[BlueLance]

9 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

Well if you want a complete list of structures then it would be 3 liquid pumps 2 mini liquid pumps, 2 gas pumps, one mini gas pumpRock crusher, refrigeratior, two massage tables, grill, musher, few sweepers and receptacles, 4 lamps aquatuner, few gas and liquid shutoffs, fert maker, oil refinery, polymer press, sieve. That would be all i remember 

I run the entire inside of my base on two hydrogen generators which are fed from 4 electrolyzers... Listed below is everything that is connected to them;

• 8 Gas Pumps
• 9 Liquid Pumps
• 4 Electrolyzers
• 3 Cooking Stations
• 3 Liquid Shut-Off Valves
• 12 Sweeper Arms
• 15 Conveyor Loaders
• 22 Exosuit Docks
• 2 Aquatuners

You can do the math and ask yourself....HOW.... Cuz quite frankly I ask myself that all the time, very rarely will my nat gas gens even kick on

Edit - I was kidding about HOW, a lot of the stuff runs for such a short time that the power drain is minimal. The only time the Natural Gas kicks in is if both aquatuners run for an extended period of time.

[Parusoid]

18 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

I run the entire inside of my base on two hydrogen generators which are fed from 4 electrolyzers... Listed below is everything that is connected to them;

• 8 Gas Pumps
• 9 Liquid Pumps
• 4 Electrolyzers
• 3 Cooking Stations
• 3 Liquid Shut-Off Valves
• 12 Sweeper Arms
• 15 Conveyor Loaders
• 22 Exosuit Docks
• 2 Aquatuners

You can do the math and ask yourself....HOW.... Cuz quite frankly I ask myself that all the time, very rarely will my nat gas gens even kick on

Edit - I was kidding about HOW, a lot of the stuff runs for such a short time that the power drain is minimal. The only time the Natural Gas kicks in is if both aquatuners run for an extended period of time.

 

Ok so your total drain is aporx 10,5KW but you power it with only 1,6KW. Are you sure its not a debug mode?

19 hours ago, abud said:

I suggest aquatuner for your heat problem

So far i managed to use it form my berry farm and thats all 

[leoroy]

If you could fin a polluted water geyser, a slush or even a water geyser your heat problems could be resolved : even 95 degrees water can be used to "cool" an aquatuner (but you must be carefull, water might become steam if you use too much your aquatuner or the geyser has too low output).

For energy, I can't really say... I've never used all my coal even without producing it... hamster wheel aren't that bad you know haha.

[Prince Mandor]

1 hour ago, Parusoid said:

Ok so your total drain is aporx 10,5KW but you power it with only 1,6KW. Are you sure its not a debug mode?

Difference in usage. You, as you showed, allows pups pumping nearly nothing. If system automated, each element works only when really needed. Pump can work for ten seconds, pumping 50 gramn packets of works only 1 second pumping 500 gramm. Result will be same, but power usage differs 10 times. Automation in this game is very important.

For example, if we allow aquatuner works directly from sieve, we lost tremendous amount of power.

Because sieve provide 5 kg packets, and tuner spend same 1200 W processing them. If we make any simple scheme to feed tuner with full 10 kg packets, we literally save half power of aquatuner. And this is a lot. 

1 hour ago, Parusoid said:

So far i managed to use it form my berry farm and thats all 

If you use it for lavatories, you multiply cold water. Try to feed lavatory with 5kg water at 5°, and you get back 11kg at same temperature.

If you use it for showers, you will have large 2×4 shower working as radiator, cooling your base.

And, BTW, berry do not need cold water, they can consume hot water as long as you cool down you greenhouse. If you bring hot water in insulated pipes, berries just consume it, without heating themselves

[Parusoid]

8 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

as long as you cool down you greenhouse

aquatuner is how i cool my greenhouse, i find this the easiest way

9 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Automation in this game is very important

Can you share your strategy of doing automation on power grid? It is hard to believe that you can power ten times more than you produce

[WanderingKid]

@leoroy I typically avoid most geysers except for the starter NG and Cool Steam ones for a long time.  Shouldn't typically be necessary, just somewhat helpful.

@Prince Mandor I agree but you need a solid amount of raw power, too.

@Parusoid

… Dammit, wrong button, sorry.  Early enter, sorry for staggered edits.

Out of curiosity, I decided to yank my usual power demands.  I seem to average around 1.8 kW for my almost complete base, and that's just on 3 hydrogen gens, 3 coal gens, and 2 NGG's.  I have a separate site for my Metal Refinery that uses two more coal generators, but it's not used too often.

For my continuous usage items:

4 Electolizers, 5 gas pumps, and Two liquid Pumps that supply my lavatories primarily and then a water heat sink to keep the Electrolizer output cool.  This contains my O2 area.

Two Skimmer/Sieve combos, Active 100% at beginning, eventually get down to 20% usage.

One Gas pump for the NGG geyser.

2 Sieves currently working very hard to replace my original water tower.

1 Deoxidizer room feeding a handful of exosuits.  It's about done now, but there's a bit more there.  I'll be starting up a new one once it finishes, so that's a pretty common 360w I use.

CO2 movement system from the bottom of the Metal Refinery.

Oh, yeah, and one almost constantly used set of ranges.

So, my common wattage is... errr… carry the 8...  that's ~3.5 kW on paper.  However, the 1.8 kW comes in because the electrolizers aren't continuous (there's 4 for 20 dupes), some of my O2 comes from other power sources, and once I clean up the CO2 concerns I typically don't have much call for the cleaner systems.

There are tons of minor costs, like electric airlocks and the occasional exosuit construction or my shipping controls for the shroom farms and the cooks getting ingredients.  However, even at 3.3 kW you shouldn't run into too many issues... if you use the electrical engineers.

My singular electrical engineer usually can keep up with 5-7 generators.  Most of the time, he's in the coal/hydrogen area.

So, instead of 800w, my hydrogen generators typically produce 1.2kW, and my coal backup systems (which are barely used these days) are 900w instead of 600w.  The NGG I plan to improve it's priority in time, but I've got a massive amount of chlorine and no exosuits down there, so it'd just be wasted effort.

However, with 1 NGG's (I use two, but I double them up burst them) at 50-100 settings on a Smart Battery and 3 Hydrogen generators being the top of the food chain, that's 3.2 kW of power, and another 1.8kW available with coal, and that's not including the boosts from the electrical engineers.

I'm not sure if this helps you, but I hope it gives you some ideas.

[BlueLance]

4 hours ago, Parusoid said:

Ok so your total drain is aporx 10,5KW but you power it with only 1,6KW. Are you sure its not a debug mode?

Yes I am positive it is not debug, also in debug you cant get infinite power, still need generators.

But yeah my pumps etc only run when needed. automation ftw

[yoakenashi]

One thing to consider when dealing with aquatuners is the amount of cooling per power used. This is different for cooling different liquids. Cooling regular water provides 585kW of thermal cooling, while cooling polluted water provides 700kW of thermal cooling. That's 43% more efficient!

Spoiler

H2O specific heat is 4.18

pH2O specific heat is 6.00

Assuming 10kg/s throughput (the maximum capacity of pipes), and an aquatuner temperature drop of 14°C:

4.18(Ws/gK)*10(kg/s)*14K=585060W

6.00(Ws/gK)*10(kg/s)*14K=840000W

 

[Parusoid]

39 minutes ago, yoakenashi said:

One thing to consider when dealing with aquatuners is the amount of cooling per power used. This is different for cooling different liquids. Cooling regular water provides 585kW of thermal cooling, while cooling polluted water provides 700kW of thermal cooling. That's 43% more efficient!

  Hide contents

H2O specific heat is 4.18

pH2O specific heat is 6.00

Assuming 10kg/s throughput (the maximum capacity of pipes), and an aquatuner temperature drop of 14°C:

4.18(Ws/gK)*10(kg/s)*14K=585060W

6.00(Ws/gK)*10(kg/s)*14K=840000W

 

I wish i understood thermophysics

[WanderingKid]

4 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

I wish i understood thermophysics

It takes a bit.

From the starting point of a Joule:  A joule is a unit of work, and watts are joules/second.  A joule is used for both heat and power, but for this, we only care about the heat translation.  That work translates to a change in temperature.  Specific Heat is the amount of work it takes to change a single degree of Kelvin (K) in a gram of material.  Kelvin is just Celsius with the 0 degree mark moved around.

In this case, the specific heat for Water: 4.18W/gK -> 4.18 W  per gram of H2O per Kelvin.  * 10kgs (How much water you're moving in an  Aquatuner) * # of degrees being moved (14 K/C) .  That multiplier equates to 585060 W, or 585.06 kW of temperature change.  Meanwhile, PH2O gets a 6.00 multiplier to that, instead of 4.18.  That means you get a percentage difference in the result.

The reason for this is because the Aquatuner translates the change not by amount of energy it requires to change it, but by what the change is, and then alters the energy (joules) between the two items by how much energy they had to change.  In this case, it takes your H2O/PH2O and adjusts it by 14 degrees.  That translates to an amount of energy in joules, that it then transfers to the Aquatuner itself (which is why they get hot, as they then transfer that back into the local liquid that it's heating).

[Parusoid]

6 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

That translates to an amount of energy in joules

So aquatuner creates more heat from colling polluted water than clear water?

6 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

specific heat for Water: 4.18W/gK -> 4.18 W  per gram of H2O per Kelvin

So i need to produce 4.18 joules per second in order to heat 1 gram of water by 1 degree

Lets say i provide a 100 gram of water with 4.19 joules per second. Will 1 gram of water heat, then energy will jump to another gram in order to heat it, or will it heat the previous one that has just been heated by another degree?

[WanderingKid]

Just now, Parusoid said:

So aquatuner creates more heat from colling polluted water than clear water?

So i need to produce 4.18 joules per second in order to heat 1 gram of water by 1 degree

Lets say i provide a 100 gram of water with 4.19 joules per second. Will 1 gram of water heat, then energy will jump to another gram in order to heat it, or will it heat the previous one that has just been heated?

Correct.  The Aquatuner cooling PH2O will have a lot more thermal energy it has to send back into the aquatuner by cooling PH2O instead of H2O. 

To answer your other question, you're getting too close to real thermodynamics which is simulated but not actually used in this game.  Each Cell is a single entity.  Your 100g of water is used as a block of mass for these purposes.  How quickly it will adjust the heat of its neighbors will be depending on the Thermal Conductivity values, and the average or minimum depending on if you use insulated materials.  In this case, your 100g of change of 4.19j/g * 100g will have 419j of change.  that difference will eventually disperse into its neighbors.

[PhailRaptor]

12 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

18 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

That translates to an amount of energy in joules

So aquatuner creates more heat from colling polluted water than clear water?

Aquatuners do not create heat, they move it from what goes through them to it's surroundings.  The idea is that for H2O and P-H2O of the same temperature, the P-H2O has more energy in it, but the Aquatuner will reduce them both by 14 degrees.  So for the same amount of electricity in to run the Aquatuner, are able to transfer a markedly higher amount of thermal energy out of P-H2O than clean H2O for the same energy expenditure on the Aquatuner.

Further, going back to the original basis of the thread, you should submerge your Aquatuner in P-H2O, not H2O.  When the P-H2O pool the Aquatuner is standing in gets hot enough, send it to a Water Sieve, which has a fixed temperature output of 40 C, to delete ~50 C of heat.  That's a lot.

[Parusoid]

On 5.07.2018 at 8:03 PM, Prince Mandor said:

If you bring hot water in insulated pipes, berries just consume it, without heating themselves

The water is gathering within farm tile that is heating the plant and sourodning

[onlineous]

On 27-6-2018 at 6:49 PM, FullMetalArthur said:

It's a complicated thing indeed.

But just watch what is making heat in your base, usually, one starts with the computers and algae deoxidizers, but it's manageable. Then with coal generators, which you sould put far awar from farms, and the real heat producer is the electrolizer. That last one is the tricky one, since you need it to survive, but also if you dont cool the oxygen it kills your plants. So, try to focus on a way to cool it. The basic way is just add a couple of termo coolers, other is put a bunch of weezeworts near the pump that pulls the oxygen (because you dont want an electrolizer inside your base). But if you figure that one out, you should make it.

Why wouldn't you want a electrolizer in your base? Just put them on top and make sure the oxygen can flow downwards. Nice cooling radiator pipe below the electrolizer and you only need to pump hydrogen. I don't think you can get higher efficiency than that!

[Parusoid]

On 4.07.2018 at 4:08 PM, huldu said:

, I downloaded a save game from some random guy

@huldu can you share the save?

[BlueLance]

On 07/07/2018 at 4:40 PM, onlineous said:

Why wouldn't you want a electrolizer in your base? Just put them on top and make sure the oxygen can flow downwards. Nice cooling radiator pipe below the electrolizer and you only need to pump hydrogen. I don't think you can get higher efficiency than that!

That is exactly what I do, Minus the cooling.... takes at least 500 cycles for it to get too hot XD 

Also @Parusoid if you are going to put hot water into your plants you need valves, otherwise like you noticed they will heat up, you would need to leave as little possible in the plant tile.

[Parusoid]

58 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

That is exactly what I do, Minus the cooling.... takes at least 500 cycles for it to get too hot XD 

Also @Parusoid if you are going to put hot water into your plants you need valves, otherwise like you noticed they will heat up, you would need to leave as little possible in the plant tile.

Then I would have to make separate valve for each farm tile. 5kg of Water accumulates in farm tile before moving to the next one if all tiles share the same pipe even with one valve allowing 33g/s of water multiplied by the amount of berrys I want to irrigate 

[BlueLance]

1 minute ago, Parusoid said:

Then I would have to make separate valve for each farm tile. 5kg of Water accumulates in farm tile before moving to the next one if all tiles share the same pipe even with one valve allowing 33g/s of water multiplied by the amount of berrys I want to irrigate 

You would only need a valve for each split, the simplest build would be 1 valve for every three tiles, the flow would go to each one equally. There are some more complicated ways of doing it but 3 per valve is the simplest. if you were to use this though I think you would need the flow to be 99.99 or just 100 for simplicity. There was a time where you could feed them a lot less because the game only checks every so often, but i think that was fixed.

[Parusoid]

18 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

You would only need a valve for each split, the simplest build would be 1 valve for every three tiles, the flow would go to each one equally. There are some more complicated ways of doing it but 3 per valve is the simplest. if you were to use this though I think you would need the flow to be 99.99 or just 100 for simplicity. There was a time where you could feed them a lot less because the game only checks every so often, but i think that was fixed.

If I would then the 99 grams would split in one of three pipes giving the plant 99 grams every three second, but before it would get consumed 66 would sit there for next second and another 33 for next second. Sitting water will heat the tile even if it's short time - it adds up. Since pipes do not split one packet into three, it rather allows one packet every three packets. So I rather cool my water