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Game almost unplayable - running out of water.


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On 08/04/2018 at 9:51 PM, Xira said:

I don't think this difficulty was intentional or that you intended long-term survival to be 100% dependant on the steam geysers the RNG hands you. Plz fix.

Some patchs ago, there were no geysers and we were able to survive. You have many machines that produces polluted water so you can use them to have infinite water. As well, we have so many sands.

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On 08/04/2018 at 9:51 PM, Xira said:

I've managed to survive to cycle 412 and have a nice little 'borg cube' set up, but the steam geysers just don't produce enough water for me to survive. Eventually you run out of dirt to grow meal lice and water to hydrolyze into oxygen - heaven forbid I try to grow bristle berries with water. I'm a fairly sophisticated player so it's probably not something I'm doing wrong - I've even gone and harvested almost all of the polluted water basins and converted it to water.

 

I was fairly lucky this round with 2 cool steam geysers that are on a quarter of the time (between dormancy and idle time) with 2KG and 13KG/sec production.

 

I don't think this difficulty was intentional or that you intended long-term survival to be 100% dependant on the steam geysers the RNG hands you. Plz fix.

So you use to much ressource, many cause are possible:

_ You create too many dupe (is not because you can have new dupe that you must have one new dupe)

_ you dig too fast without enclose your different places so you need to make so more oxygen to fill up all you

 

Play slowly, use your ressource smarly, and grow only when you sure you can

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5 minutes ago, Flydo said:

So you use to much ressource, many cause are possible:

_ You create too many dupe (is not because you can have new dupe that you must have one new dupe)

_ you dig too fast without enclose your different places so you need to make so more oxygen to fill up all you

 

Play slowly, use your ressource smarly, and grow only when you sure you can

By doing that you just delay the problem that will occur anyway.

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On 14/04/2018 at 12:12 PM, SamLogan said:

By doing that you just delay the problem that will occur anyway.

Nope, you just need to made a base using the good amount of water depending of how much water geyser you have dig out and how much water the produce

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Simple: Too many dupes. Clean water is usually restricted by Geyser capacity, not by cooling. Cleaning water with boiling does seem to not really work and take too much much energy (may be wrong here, but my experiments so far have resulted in less water than is needed to keep the dupes that produce the energy alive...). For food, use something that does not need water, e.g. Mushrooms + Puft/Morb farm for slime. Then you need to have enough water for oxygen, bathroom and hand-washing per dupe from the geysers. That gives you the upper dupe limit for long-term sustainability. With my last map, the hard upper dupe limit was 14, even though I could have kept 30 or so alive for > 500 cycles by doing non-sustainable things like filtering water or melting clean ice. 

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Just to throw my 2cents into the mix - more for @Xira's benefit than anything really.

At the time of posting this - I've played 1975 hours of ONI. I'm not a min maxing pro, nor an architect, nor a mathematician - however I do like pushing bases to the limit in most of my playthroughs.

My last two stream colonies have been absolute crap in terms of RNG, so much so that I did a first ever and scrapped a colony prematurely. That is to say restarted before a) lag stopped us, or b) we'd literally done everything possible - which are normally the only two reasons i'd resign a colony.

In my current base I have explored the entire map, and have found all of my water geysers - their COMBINED output is 1912kg per cycle, which equates to 3.18kg/s. This doesn't factor in for dormancy, one of which is dormant for ~30 cycles.

I'm running a 28 dupe base - just under 1/4 of the asteroid in size. I have a deficit of water that i'm currently making up for by melting ice, however this is obviously finite. I'm about to move to petroleum gens - solely for the polluted water output - however then I have to figure out how I can generate 12kg/s of petroleum before I deplete all of my crude oil.

My asteroid is approximately 2/3 Ice biome - yet I have a wheezewort shortage - found about 12 so far, none left on the map that I can see.

My current geyser tally is :

Cool steam vent x2
Natural gas x 1 @ 40g/s
Natural gas x 1 @ 460g/s (long idle time)
Chlorine x1 @ 262g/s
Chlorine x 1 @887g/s
3 x CO2 Geysers (I kid you not...)
1 x Infectious Polluted oxygen vent (active 100/206 cycles)
and a Hydrogen vent 

Point is - the problem with RNG is that sometimes your asteroid can just suck balls. I'm trying everything I can to support a large colony, but the RNG added with the changes to geysers has pretty much seen to it that i'll have to kill off some dupes. This is the opposite of a fun time to me.

I don't like my playthroughs to be governed solely by a number generator....

That being said - it has forced me to think a little more conservatively, and consider builds that I never would have before. Sadly the sums just don't add up though :(

image.thumb.png.e14f9f56c9f907b3e8a2f5bee76aedbe.png

 


 

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30 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I'm running a 28 dupe base - just under 1/4 of the asteroid in size. I have a deficit of water that i'm currently making up for by melting ice, however this is obviously finite. I'm about to move to petroleum gens - solely for the polluted water output - however then I have to figure out how I can generate 12kg/s of petroleum before I deplete all of my crude oil.

 

I've been having similar thoughts.  Its a bit frustrating when you get a map that has almost no water production.  So, I've been looking at oil as well.

The math  works out that each oil well can support a bit over one petroleum generator, and each petroleum generator produces 250g/s of polluted water more than it takes to run a well.  So, once you run out of 'free' oil and have to use wells, you'll need four well/generator pairs to produce the water to supply 10 dupes with oxygen.  Those 4 wells will be able to run a fifth generator about 30% of the time, and its output will be fully available (rather than diverted into wells), giving about 400g/s more polluted water on average over time.  

However, this ONLY works if you do NOT use oil refineries to turn crude into petrol.  If you use a refinery, the entire process comes up as a loss.  Basically you would need 8 wells for those four and 1/3 generators.  Eight wells would use 8kg/s water while the generators combined output is only 5400g/s of polluted water.

So.. I guess I need to start building a crude -> petrol oven.

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2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

However, this ONLY works if you do NOT use oil refineries to turn crude into petrol.  If you use a refinery, the entire process comes up as a loss.  Basically you would need 8 wells for those four and 1/3 generators.  Eight wells would use 8kg/s water while the generators combined output is only 5400g/s of polluted water.

So.. I guess I need to start building a crude -> petrol oven.

This is what I meant by sadly the sums just don't add up :/

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The steam geysers in my current map produce on average 3.28Kg/s (including dormancy).  Luckily I have a water geysey which, while I don't know the dormancy, adds another 1.6Kg/s.  Feels to me the RNG is not so much how good your steam geysers are, they're all rubbish, but if you spawn any other water sources.  If you don't, you might as well throw the seed away and start again.

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Personally, I think the bottom end of the range of the RNG for them needs to be something that is always useful and acceptable, if not necessarily great. Some of those dormancy times are insane, for example. Every map should at least be not terrible, with regards to this stuff. Being challenged by a map is ok. Playing for days, then finding out your seed sucks horribly is something that should be avoided. And probably can be with some adjustment of the RNG parameters.

I always first find a good seed before I play. It'd be better if I didn't have to feel the need to do that.

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Time to pop in from under the rock to get my 2 cents in:

While the game definitely needs polishing but that will happen with time and patience. I also was getting screwed by either lack of dirt (it's still an issue to me but I work around it the best I can through planning and awareness. The current map has me supplied with 5.5 KG of cool steam with a 100 day of dormancy in my immediate spawn point and the downside being a third of my base being nice and toasty, I am pending off my "heat invaders" with 2 weezworts out of my 8 I happen to get from the cold biome just on top the the said gyser. Yes I would say it pretty lucky.

 

I definitely love hearing all the tricks and hell, I even got over my intimidation of automation and while I'm far from an expert; I do my best to absorb the knowledge and make the most of it in any colony I try to work with.

 

Does it suck when water goes dry, sure it does

I'm absolutely certain everyone here has at one point or another

 

To quote a line: I have not failed, I have found 10,000 ways it won't work

 

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Before I started my new base, I read this thread and I trusted what people said about how new steam geysers suck. So I built a massive pool as soon as I found a water geyser. But I have not used a single gram of water from the pool and I'm on cycle 1700. I have 13 dupes and my steam geysers generates, I would say average, about 3 kg/s water. With 4 air pump and 3 electrolyzer (do not really care about being efficient) I filled half of the map with oxygen. I actually had to stop one of them, because the oxygen level has exceeded 4 kg per tile. 

My latrine room is self-sustained; filled with clean water once in the beginning and that is it. Consumes no water.

For food I rely on eggs, mushroom and wild sleet wheat. I have mined almost entire slime bioms and have 172 tons of slime without a farm. I feel like it can go forever.

Overall, I disagree with the title. 

1700.thumb.jpg.793299390351cf69accbb6ca1c484946.jpg

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12 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Cool steam vent x2
Natural gas x 1 @ 40g/s
Natural gas x 1 @ 460g/s (long idle time)
Chlorine x1 @ 262g/s
Chlorine x 1 @887g/s
3 x CO2 Geysers (I kid you not...)
1 x Infectious Polluted oxygen vent (active 100/206 cycles)
and a Hydrogen vent

That is just about the worst seed I've ever seen. Natural gas gens will give you much better water returns from your oil but without a metal or magma volcano natural gas cooking is finite (although you can go for a very, very long time cooking in the magma biome). NGGs can also spit out enough co2 to feed a large number of dupes on omelettes, which can massively reduce water needs.

In theory you could use the hydrogen geyser to keep a slickster farm at 500c. Slicksters output at body temp so if you get them hot enough they can turn co2 directly into petrol or gas. I've not yet been able to come up with a design that does this in a viable way since it's very hard to get the co2 to the slicksters without it drawing substantial heat from whatever heat source is keeping the slicksters warm. The conversion done by the slicksters themselves is thermally neutral for oil and almost neutral for petrol as well (co2 has twice the thermal capacity but they destroy half the mass). It's thermally positive for nat gas but none of your heat sources go hot enough for that.

Until I (or someone) can come up with a viable heat breeding build any seed without a volcano of some kind is limited almost entirely to the nat gas, ph20 and h20 geysers they get.

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I find most steam geysers have been useless.  My current map has  PW that give 4 kg/s and mostly erupts and has very short dormant period.  I kept making its tank larger to hold the surplus.

Either good PW or clean water is great but RNG could really hurt you on water too.

Of course, there is enough PW in the slime biomes to last over 1000 cycles with 16+ dups but I get some people want true sustainability.

 But "running out of water" claimed by OP seems more a lack of using what is there (and I am not even suggesting melting ice)

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6 hours ago, Stoof said:

The steam geysers in my current map produce on average 3.28Kg/s (including dormancy).  Luckily I have a water geysey which, while I don't know the dormancy, adds another 1.6Kg/s.  Feels to me the RNG is not so much how good your steam geysers are, they're all rubbish, but if you spawn any other water sources.  If you don't, you might as well throw the seed away and start again.

Well in my offline base - I have two huge steam geysers and a water geyser - the water geyser is dormant for like 80 cycles at a time, but the main steam geysers are way more than I need alone. Purely RNG cucked on my stream bases sadly :D 

1 hour ago, Mach26 said:

I have 13 dupes and my steam geysers generates, I would say average, about 3 kg/s water. With 4 air pump and 3 electrolyzer (do not really care about being efficient) I filled half of the map with oxygen. I actually had to stop one of them, because the oxygen level has exceeded 4 kg per tile. 

Overall, I disagree with the title. 

In fairness, you have a very simple colony - with lots of open space, but not much demand on water. 13 dupes is a relatively small number (YES I know a fair few people run 4-8 dupe colonies, but most opt for 16-24 as a general). Point being, once you start consuming food at a higher rate, and have to actively look for alternatives - water becomes incredibly necessary. Omelettes aren't viable on a big scale.

8 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

 NGGs can also spit out enough co2 to feed a large number of dupes on omelettes, which can massively reduce water needs.

Yeah, we did the maths sadly :

7% per day to grow an egg = 14.3 cycles per egg.

One egg = one omelette which is calories for 2.8 cycles for a single dupe. So to keep a constant supply you need 6 slicksters per dupe.

Currently running 28 dupes, which means i'd need 168 slicksters...

Alas, my game would slow to a crawl if I had that many critters :p 

 

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6 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

In fairness, you have a very simple colony - with lots of open space, but not much demand on water. 13 dupes is a relatively small number (YES I know a fair few people run 4-8 dupe colonies, but most opt for 16-24 as a general). Point being, once you start consuming food at a higher rate, and have to actively look for alternatives - water becomes incredibly necessary. Omelettes aren't viable on a big scale.

One thing @Mach26 mentioned is that he uses natural growing plants. That's something that's oft forgotten. I'm definitely saving all my natural wheat and peppers. Not sure if farming station still work on them, but there was a period where you could halve the natural growth time.

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Just now, Grimgaw said:

One thing @Mach26 mentioned is that he uses natural growing plants. That's something that's oft forgotten. I'm definitely saving all my natural wheat and peppers. Not sure if farming station still work on them, but there was a period where you could halve the natural growth time.

Well I've had to exclusively use only wild sleet wheat as I don't have the spare water for growing my own :?

Last time I checked you could build a greenhouse around natural pinchas, and it worked just fine.

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6 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Well in my offline base - I have two huge steam geysers and a water geyser - the water geyser is dormant for like 80 cycles at a time, but the main steam geysers are way more than I need alone. Purely RNG cucked on my stream bases sadly :D 

In fairness, you have a very simple colony - with lots of open space, but not much demand on water. 13 dupes is a relatively small number (YES I know a fair few people run 4-8 dupe colonies, but most opt for 16-24 as a general). Point being, once you start consuming food at a higher rate, and have to actively look for alternatives - water becomes incredibly necessary. Omelettes aren't viable on a big scale.

Yeah, we did the maths sadly :

7% per day to grow an egg = 14.3 cycles per egg.

One egg = one omelette which is calories for 2.8 cycles for a single dupe. So to keep a constant supply you need 6 slicksters per dupe.

Currently running 28 dupes, which means i'd need 168 slicksters...

Alas, my game would slow to a crawl if I had that many critters :p 

 

I have a spreadsheet I keep for general ONI maths and one of the nice results was finding a really solid ratio for the ngg cycle - 2 dupes:4NGGs:11 slicksters. The combined co2 output of the NGGs and the dupes will feed the slicksters. The combined egg output of the slicksters will feed the dupes. The combined water output of the NGGs is more than enough to feed themselves via a well and some cooking, when you consider that the slicksters alone output more than half the needed oil. The remaining water can go to farms or whatever else. If you keep to this ratio you can just scale up to however many slicksters you are comfortable to maintain then farm food for the remaining dupes.

But again, without a volcanic heat source this solution is finite (but tbh cooking a few hundred grams/sec oil in your magma biome would take many thousands of cycles to cool it down)

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9 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

I have a spreadsheet I keep for general ONI maths

Quit bogarting on the spreadsheet! ;) 

Aye there are solutions, however trying to build either a petroleum cooker, or a NG boiler on stream is a bit of a faff.

I'd assumed 6 slicksters per dupe just for roundings sake btw. Sadly when you have 28 dupes, you end up needed an ungodly amount of ranchers/farmers.

*edit* as @Grimgawrightly said :D 

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32 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

In fairness, you have a very simple colony - with lots of open space, but not much demand on water. 13 dupes is a relatively small number (YES I know a fair few people run 4-8 dupe colonies, but most opt for 16-24 as a general). Point being, once you start consuming food at a higher rate, and have to actively look for alternatives - water becomes incredibly necessary. Omelettes aren't viable on a big scale.

 

I cannot do anything about open space. If i do not give dig order, 4-5 of them become idle, which I hate.:)

But, thanks to the bring the issue on real problem. The game has limit and most important variable for the limit is the number of dupes. We do not know most people opt for 16-24 dupes. We do know, however, most streamers choose to have many dupes. Which is fair when you streaming. Things should go fast if you do not want to kill the audience with boredom. In my first base, I had 21 dupes, which collapsed after 10 of them died from slimelung. I had 21 dupes for sole reason: that is what I learned from your videos. Casual players, like me, on the other hand, do not need that many dupes, After a while they become idle anyway. 

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3 minutes ago, Mach26 said:

I cannot do anything about open space, if i do not give dig order, 4-5 of them become idle, which I hate.:)

But, thanks to the bring the issue on real problem. The game has limit and most important variable for the limit is the number of dupes. We do not know most people opt for 16-24 dupes. We do know, however, most streamers choose to have many dupes. Which is fair when you streaming. Things should go fast if you do not want to kill the audience with boredom. In my first base, I had 21 dupes, which collapsed after 10 of them died from slimelung. I had 21 dupes for sole reason: that is what I learned from your videos. Casual players, like me, on the other hand, do not need that many dupes, After a while they become idle anyway. 

I think with the ranching upgrade more than ever, we need more dupes than previous. That is to say if you plan to specialise with your dupes, and have dedicated roles - it doesn't take long before you've got quite a work force. 2 miners, 2 builders, couple of couriers, tidiers, cooks, farm hands, ranchers, etc etc.

But I do agree - it's different if you're doing something daft like an accept every dupe run, or a subscriber run. Even still, in my solo bases I still opt for 16-24 dupes. Late game if they're idle, you're either not building big enough, or you should consider restarting (or lay back and watch your ant colony congregate around the cook station/toilets) :D 

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6 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Late game if they're idle, you're either not building big enough, or you should consider restarting (or lay back and watch your ant colony congregate around the cook station/toilets) :D 

Or make everyone a rancher. Maybe that 2:4:11 is doable.

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