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Game almost unplayable - running out of water.


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20 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Yes.

Transition to elcectrolyzers has not changed since... ever.

Water recycling has not changed. In fact Sieve is in it's most efficient state... ever.

Cooling geyser water for berry farm. Again hasn't changed or is more easy these days.

You lost me here. Not sure what point are you making here.

Are you saying people were struggling with geysers before and they are struggling now? So what changed?

I am speaking about I believe the agricultural update, when the water and nautral gas geysers were introduced.

I think you yourself are speaking about the rancher upgrade, so that'll explain the confusion. And yes, the game has massively changed since then. You used to have a fixed 4800kg/cycle of water from geysers, so discounting other sources. You'd be very lucky if you can get that half of that out of all the geysers combined on current generated maps.

I never had issues myself with food, although I lament the lack of sustainable choice. We used to have sustainable mealwood, then sustainable sleet wheat, then again sustainable mealwood, then sustainable berries and now we have eggs combined with mushrooms. water for food wasn't something you'd quickly run into a problem into as you were able to get relatively easily good permanent sources of water. That is however me speaking as an experienced player. Food for a new player is probably a bit easier, but he or she is not going to survive long enough if they don't realize they have to such heavy water management for oxygen production or other stuff.

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I mean, if this is your only contribution to the debate, sure, I'll address it, but you're going off on a tangent here.

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

Transition to elcectrolyzers has not changed since... ever.

Water recycling has not changed. In fact Sieve is in it's most efficient state... ever.

Cooling geyser water for berry farm. Again hasn't changed or is more easy these days.

You're right that the Electrolyzer and Water Sieve haven't changed.  And that yes, we now have Aqua Tuners, which we didn't before, or the Conductive Wire to support them properly.  But to achieve the same basic level of sustainability (Geyser fed Electrolyzers, neutral or increasing kCal food production) requires far, far more work than it used to.  The Priority rework alone is evidence of that.  So is the Job system.  It now takes a lot longer to actually get a large construction job done just between these 2 systems.  On top of that, Athletics increases at a much slower rate (rightly so), further slowing the whole process.  The race against your Algae reserves to get onto Electrolyzers is now much longer.

Now, if we can get back to the topic, you have yet to address the fact that water is much harder to come by.  In Occupational Upgrade, you were guaranteed 2 Steam Geysers.  Both of these Geysers produced a fixed amount of water over their "life cycle", 755 kg each.  Average that over their 180 second cycle, you get 4.19 kg/s each.  The ONI Wiki has yet to be updated, so the numbers are all still there.  Feel free to check.  Now, in Ranch mk 1, the output is variable per Geyser, and you're lucky to see anything that, averaged over it's full "life cycle", generates even a full kg/s.

Are you really going to suggest that this is anything other than a hard nerf?

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4 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

I am speaking about I believe the agricultural update, when the water and nautral gas geysers were introduced.

Oh I see! You're saying that we were swimming in water (heh) when we had variable amount of NG/Water geysers and that made 80kg/cycle water consumption laughable?

But how does that pertain to new players?

As far as I can see on Twitch new players die sub cycle 100, and that's not related to geysers whatsoever.

Just to throw some numbers. There's roughly 50 pools of polluted water on my map with and average 10 tiles of water (low balling hard here) that's 400000kg of water. With 35 dupes (that's A LOT) fed with (farmed) Pepper Bread (best food) your water usage is slightly below 6kg/s of water. That means that my low ball estimate would last them 111 cycles. 

This doesn't include any other sources of water.

Game is FINE.

1 minute ago, PhailRaptor said:

Are you really going to suggest that this is anything other than a hard nerf?

Based on numbers above, a much needed nerf in my opinion.

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Just now, Grimgaw said:

Oh I see! You're saying that we were swimming in water (heh) when we had variable amount of NG/Water geysers and that made 80kg/cycle water consumption laughable?

But how does that pertain to new players?

As far as I can see on Twitch new players die sub cycle 100, and that's not related to geysers whatsoever.

Just to throw some numbers. There's roughly 50 pools of polluted water on my map with and average 10 tiles of water (low balling hard here) that's 400000kg of water. With 35 dupes (that's A LOT) fed with (farmed) Pepper Bread (best food) your water usage is slightly below 6kg/s of water. That means that my low ball estimate would last them 111 cycles. 

This doesn't include any other sources of water.

Game is FINE.

Well, you were saying this:

Quote

Game hasn't changed for new players since the introduction of geysers

From which I assumed the agricultural geysers. Of course the game changed since than. At introduction of these geysers the game was nowhere near a challenge anymore.

Of course, you did mean the geysers from the rancher update. And yes, game has changed since than as well. I was able to sustain 40-50 dupes before. Now I can't get to 20 dupes unless I have a very lucky roll of the dice.

I wouldn't exactly compare twitch players to normal, regular players. Twitch players do play to get money too, so they probably will do their homework and go look on the wiki and the forums. I am curious though what the main reason is why twitch players die. Heat? Stress?

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I think I'm harping on you saying that somehow the game changed for worse for new players. It hasn't, it's easiest it ever was.

3 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

I wouldn't exactly compare twitch players to normal, regular players.

Definitely not talking about regular ONI streamers here, but the variety, small ones, dabbing in ONI for 2h never to be seen again.

5 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

I was able to sustain 40-50 dupes before. Now I can't get to 20 dupes unless I have a very lucky roll of the dice.

You still can, even if you remove geysers from the map. Like I mentioned in one of previous comments there's enough magma and oil on the map to create water for thousands of cycles.

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4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

No this went too far. The developers have to do something about this.

Devs change so much with new updates, we have to wait, which direction ONI takes.
Some sort of seedbased luck- gaming experience now.

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I am just gonna throw my two cence in here, how many new players;

  1. Go Hunting for geysers? (I only started using the water ones around the oil update)
  2. Knew there used to be over a dozen geysers (Without googling or hearing it from an old stream)
  3. Ever used their geysers (Like I said I never used to.

My thoughts are that most new players wouldn't know any better that what they get now is not what they would have gotten last patch, or several patches ago. I mean you are all talking about the older systems and comparing them (Thats something experienced players can do) whilst going on about new players who don't know the difference (as mentioned, most new players don't bother to go to the forum or wiki)

  • Experienced players say it sucks because they are comparing it to what they are used to
  • New players have nothing to compare it to other than people complaining that the old system was better

New players most likely die to Cabon Dioxide, Stress, Food, Lack of oxygen etc and most likely Heat as well because those geyser are HOOOOT. Oh and using their water on mush bars (Boy was i guilty of that)

Also please stop arguing to each other, or treating each other as if the other were dumb.

@Xira is struggling with water, as experienced players ask questions to help clarify information, offer solutions, agree that you struggle and what you have done to cope, or disagree and help point out where mistakes are. If you want to argue with each other and it does not benefit the OP, there is a PM system, use that.

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Just now, Grimgaw said:

I think I'm harping on you saying that somehow the game changed for worse for new players. It hasn't, it's easiest it ever was.

Definitely not talking about regular ONI streamers here, but the variety, small ones, dabbing in ONI for 2h never to be seen again.

You still can, even if you remove geysers from the map. Like I mentioned in one of previous comments there's enough magma and oil on the map to create water for thousands of cycles.

Ok. No, just no. I would not survive long enough to dig down to the magma, get everything in place for oil cooking and subsequently cooling down and getting enough water out of it, without geyser water.

You have to understand that's also a very frustrating way to play the game.

1 minute ago, BlueLance said:

I am just gonna throw my two cence in here, how many new players;

  1. Go Hunting for geysers? (I only started using the water ones around the oil update)
  2. Knew there used to be over a dozen geysers (Without googling or hearing it from an old stream)
  3. Ever used their geysers (Like I said I never used to.

My thoughts are that most new players wouldn't know any better that what they get now is not what they would have gotten last patch, or several patches ago. I mean you are all talking about the older systems and comparing them (Thats something experienced players can do) whilst going on about new players who don't know the difference (as mentioned, most new players don't bother to go to the forum or wiki)

  • Experienced players say it sucks because they are comparing it to what they are used to
  • New players have nothing to compare it to other than people complaining that the old system was better

New players most likely die to Cabon Dioxide, Stress, Food, Lack of oxygen etc and most likely Heat as well because those geyser are HOOOOT. Oh and using their water on mush bars (Boy was i guilty of that)

Also please stop arguing to each other, or treating each other as if the other were dumb.

@Xira is struggling with water, as experienced players ask questions to help clarify information, offer solutions, agree that you struggle and what you have done to cope, or disagree and help point out where mistakes are. If you want to argue with each other and it does not benefit the OP, there is a PM system, use that.

That's very reasonable Bluelance. Yes, indeed, I might have argued too much from the perspective of using geysers while new player probably will not come to that or release a hell on their base (I did way back!).

So yeah, my apologies. I got caught up in the discussion.

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8 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

You have to understand that's also a very frustrating way to play the game.

I don't disagree that it is frustrating (Personally I don't do it) but everyone has their own ways of playing, and they might not find it frustrating.

For instance I love this update (Which seems to be a rare statement)

A solution would be to use the algae given to provide a big enough buffer to set up a system you think will work with what you are given in the world. In the end let's all help each other :) 

Also I cooked my base several times this patch, so yeah definitely releasing hell haha moved red hot igneous rock into my base from my volcano set up

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5 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Ok. No, just no. I would not survive long enough to dig down to the magma, get everything in place for oil cooking and subsequently cooling down and getting enough water out of it, without geyser water.

You have to understand that's also a very frustrating way to play the game.

Just to get this straight, you want more output from geysers?

To what degree though? Should it be limitless? How much would satisfy you?

You made it abundantly clear that you won't consider other sources.

Pasting some more geysers or water is always an option using debug too.

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Just now, Grimgaw said:

Just to get this straight, you want more output from geysers?

To what degree though? Should it be limitless? How much would satisfy you?

You made it abundantly clear that you won't consider other sources.

Pasting some more geysers or water is always an option using debug too.

Simple. We had 4800kg/cycle from the geysers before the rancher upgrade. I'd be happy with around 3600-4800kg each cycle in total spread over more geysers/fumaroles. I don't mind a bit less water, I don't mind you have to tackle each source differently (I really like that actually).

I do consider and use other sources btw, but as a supplement and not as a vital/critical part. That's however personal opinion and I do agree that's different from others.

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@Xira If you do not mind would you be able to post your save? Or at the very least a screenshot plus your geyser details? Hopefully we can help you get your base running even a little bit better and maybe save those dupes....but if Stinky dies that is ok

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Just now, Grimgaw said:

1704149007 has 3696.06kg/cycle from geysers.

Isn't geyser output randomized across seeds?

I'll give it a try, thanks!

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Just now, turbonl64 said:

Isn't geyser output randomized across seeds?

I'll give it a try, thanks!

It was on preview, it's not on official release.  I think it was determined that the physical location on the map is used in determining the output at that position.  Someone posted something to that effect early after release.

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If you want to go back to old geyser output values you must also argue for the old consumption numbers as well. On my current seed I'm on cycle 490 and I haven't had to touch any of my steam geysers yet as I got my nat gas gens and slickster farms up early and I've lived on a diet of mostly eggs. I make up the shortfall on a small bristle farm.

If my map hadn't been so heavy on nat gas geysers it might have had a ph20 instead (good water supply) or more steam geysers (good water supply) or volcanoes (ok water supply if you use it to cook oil). Most geysers can be gamed for either direct water or indirect water and egg byproducts from co2. The only advantage of steam geysers is they're the most direct water source, but they're far from the most potent in terms of how many dupes they can support if you're willing to design something the properly exploits the other geysers.

 

For OP: you have the tools to keep your base going you just need to be willing to use them. Every single natural tile in a slime biome can be turned into some amount of water, air or both. Chlorine biomes have huge algae and coal deposits. Even on the worst seed you can imagine, a slickster -> ngg loop is water mass positive and also produces food.

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19 minutes ago, BlueLance said:

@JonnyMonroe Silly question, but how many critters do you have tamed? I usually only go for Slicksters and hatches but i worry breeding too many might grind my PC to a halt. Currently I do the opposite from you and have my bristle berries the main food and eggs are a supplement.

6 hatches and 20 slicksters currently. Just scale your slicksters to your co2 output. 1 slickster will cover your dupes exhaled co2, you'll want 2 for every 3 coal gens running 100%, 2 slicks per ngg (also assuming 100% uptime), and 15 slicksters per petro gen. These numbers are rounded to the nearest whole slickster until I figure out a way to keep partial slicksters alive and happy. Hopefully that comes in ranching mark 2.

Oh, you'll also get some co2 from plastic production but I don't leave that running much so I rarely factor it in.

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This problem is based around how many dupes you need to support. I have survived over 500 cycles without using any steam geysers but only having 6 dupes at first, slowly working up to 9. I still have insane amounts of polluted water and the geysers to harness if I need to. The water is very slowly running out due to 2 electroyzers and a bristle berry farm, but there's other ways for me to make more polluted water using machines.

So it's a balancing issue. How many dupes should Klei make supportable in a world? And for how many cycles? For you who want a larger dupe count, its definitely much easier to run out of water after a few hundred cycles. 

So how do you balance it? I guess you aim to make it a hard challenge to construct a base using nearly all the technology. And make it hard explore much of the asteroid. Those are the "endp goals". Then you decide what the max number of dupes you think a player can get away with to achieve that goal (without having knowledge about creating new polluted water using machine loops). And finally you can then start tweaking resource numbers in code  (like average water on spawn) to allow the worlds to support that goal.

At the moment it sounds like the water values are balanced around a smaller number of dupes for the non expert player, so it's up to Klei whether they want to add more water to make bigger populations easier.

The question is, does adding more water make the game easier for small bases? "Of course!" you cry. But think on this: with more dupes you make faster progress in expanding and building. So you may not survive for as many cycles as a small base, but you can achieve the same things faster. Big bases run out of resources faster but get more done. The only exception is research time which is a bottleneck all bases must go through.

If Klei does add a true end to the game such as leaving the asteroid, then balancing resources/dupe numbers around that will be much easier for them.

One easy way for them to tweak difficulty around dupe numbers and resources in the early/mid game would be to to change the rate at which new dupes appear in the fabricator. 

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About new player difficulty, I can speak with experience as I only started the game in the OP update.

I never even knew about geysers until my 3rd base when I read about them on the forums. New players don't usually go off on big digging adventures and will probably not come across geysers in their first attempts unless they spawn close to the starting biome. With Ranching update they are even less likely to learn of geyser existence now they are mostly buried. If this is a problem its an easy fix, just have a hint in tutorials about it, or make at least one geyser spawn in starting biome, or have it tied into the story, or have it so scientists can detect them, etc.

Biggest roadblocks for new players in order of what usually kills you:

- Heat. Mealwood/bristle berry farms overheat. Normally you can survive until this point unless you make major errors. 

- Disease. Food poisoning wrecks your base especially once you start using toilets and recycle the water - which gets germs into food production (most people still on mush bars/lice loafs at this point. Ventures into slime biome can easily end in slimelung death until you learn how to deal with it.

- Water. Once you run out of algae you move to electrolyzer and then water becomes a problem as you are consuming even more. Bear in mind most players will still be using lots of water on research, lice loafs/mush bars, and probably algae terrariums from early on - plus they may well already be using showers/toilets/sinks. Often polluted water is in the slime biome so that is the next obvious water source once your initial lakes run dry. And then you have to learn how to cope with slimelung. By the time water starts running low heat will probably be reaching farm-killing levels too.

Most new players take new dupes when they are available, so they are likely to have 10-12 dupes by the time heat becomes an issue. Easy water vanishes quickly too with this amount of dupes.

I would have continued having big water problems in my games, unless I'd come on these forums. That made me realise that algae terrariums sucked up a lot of water, and that I shouldn't have so many dupes early on. I think that unless the new dupe frequency is lowered then new players will run into a water shortage early on for at least their first couple of bases. Once they learn how to deal with slimelung they can make water last for much longer now they can access polluted water safely.

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Why is it a bad thing that new players fail a bunch of colonies before getting to a sustainable point? I killed something like 11 colonies before I finally made one that lasted and it felt so much better because of the long process of learning and struggling to get there. Each new failure was a bit further than the last and some new lessons learned and I probably wouldn't have stuck with the game at all if it hadn't challenged me to try again so much in those early days.

You rightly note that one of the biggest early challenges for players is heat management but this thread is about geysers and geysers present a bigger heat challenge than the 40c water from a seive that normally kills early farms off. Guiding new players to geysers early on would compound the heat problem massively. If you want an early game guide that helps players figure out their early challenges you're better off guiding them to an ice biome and letting them figure out how to exploit mined ice and wheezes so they have some basic idea of cooling stuff before you then task them with turning 110c steam into something useful and sustainable.

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16 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

Why is it a bad thing that new players fail a bunch of colonies before getting to a sustainable point?

It isn't, If you die to something you learn how to fix it. It took me till about my 40th to actually be able to breath and test new things XD

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I dunno if that was directed at me Jonny, but if so then I agree - I was just stating what people struggle with as it was asked earlier in the thread.

As for the hot geysers that's a good point, in the OP update knowing about geysers would have been a big help. In the Ranching update it could be another big heat hurdle if new players go for them early on - a poisoned present if you like! 

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