The game future and FPS

[Moggles]

7 hours ago, Master Miner said:

And yes, when you finish playing, save the game and click on "Quit to desktop" and "OK" you either have to kill its process or you can go for a drink before you can use the computer again...

 

6 hours ago, TehPlayer14 said:

Yeah the Quit to desktop/menu is kinda annoying especially when modding or messing around, perhaps I need workaround for that

lol I know what you mean.

At some point in the last year I started hitting alt-f4. I can't remember when but it's automatic for me now.

[Oozinator]

15 minutes ago, Moggles said:

. I started hitting alt-f4. I can't remember when but it's automatic for me now.

Same here ^^

[CobraA1]

17 hours ago, FutureJohny said:

What I do not understand though is game shutdown time. (exiting from game to OS) It does not even save the game, but it just does something for nearly a minute.

I just gave up on it and just kill the game with task manager once I save.

Are you also experiencing this long shutdown time?

Probably freeing up memory. If they're using a garbage collected language, it might be doing a major sweep of all of the data structures that are now considered to be garbage.

[Hanro50]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:13 PM, 2ki said:

The difficulty to implement multi-threading can be argued (haven't touched in the last 3/4 years) however is not easy nor is something it can be done in a few weeks with a small team. I do agree that the sooner it is done the better (the new code won't have to be changed/optimized) however is not easy to do that if the are still adding or fixing content.

64bit IS necesary for most games today (ONI and other management games even more), they need to track tons of stuff and they need the extra resources.

I do agree with TehPlayer14 that multi-threading is needed and Master Miner is right about planning, however, as of right now Klei seems to be focusing on releasing the new content and balancing the game itself, if they were to suddenly implement multi threading they would need at least 1 update time to make the changes (i'm guessing more) and stop the regular update releases.

Also I don't have an incredible computer (i5 3.5gz and 4x4 gb ram) and never had issues (well having to wait 2/3 minutes to create a 512x512 map) however i never exceeded turn 200 nor made uber bases so maybe that's why.

Welcome to my personal Hell...Although in testing I drop down the map size to speed up map generation. -Map gen script editor

That said the added complexity multi-threading would add to the game code which is probably not in a polished state by any means already would nullify any potential performance gains multi-threading would provide. You also have to account that some players will only have a simple dual core cpu so adding advance multi threading to the mix could irreversibly break compatibility with there system.

Like stated in this article performance is normally last on the agenda when developers are working on a game that's in its Alpha stage. The code might be all over the place now, but the random strands of code that might be commented out or remain unused will eventually blossom into noteworthy content we'll be able to explore in the future. 

I don't see why they're going to clean the mess hale floor well the colony is still having that large scale meal lice eating contest which is spilling bits of meal lice everywhere 

[Kabrute]

Also from what I am seeing just comparing Tubular to Occupation, they are going in a completely different direction with their structure now even for something as simple as worldgen so I can well imagine the overhaul taking place, hence why I shut up about most of my complaints regarding the game.  They aren't just hackypatching but are actively rebuilding from the ground up while trying not to let the player see that soooooo bloody much is happening just out of sight....  I'm honestly impressed.

[TehPlayer14]

On 19.02.2018 at 8:01 PM, Hanro50 said:

Welcome to my personal Hell...Although in testing I drop down the map size to speed up map generation. -Map gen script editor

That said the added complexity multi-threading would add to the game code which is probably not in a polished state by any means already would nullify any potential performance gains multi-threading would provide. You also have to account that some players will only have a simple dual core cpu so adding advance multi threading to the mix could irreversibly break compatibility with there system.

Like stated in this article performance is normally last on the agenda when developers are working on a game that's in its Alpha stage. The code might be all over the place now, but the random strands of code that might be commented out or remain unused will eventually blossom into noteworthy content we'll be able to explore in the future. 

I don't see why they're going to clean the mess hale floor well the colony is still having that large scale meal lice eating contest which is spilling bits of meal lice everywhere 

According to steam hardware *COUGH* http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/  

70% of people have 4 cpu cores and 2 cores are only 20% so minority at most

To have a dualcore cpu you need to go back in time to 2006 (or really cheap laptop)

[Arash70]

The recommended gpu should be 1050ti for this game,

I've upgraded my pc recently and I'm enjoying the game a lot more than I used to.

--

@TehPlayer14 new i3s have 2 cores, and oh it will run on a 6 or 7 generation i3 I think. 

I used to have an ancient pc (h67ma-e45-b3 + i5 2310 cpu + 4 GB ddr3 1333 Mhz ram + GTS 450 1GB graphics card) and oxygen not included would run ok on it, the only limitation was the GPU I think.

so technically a low or mid range laptop with an i3 + 920m or i5+950m would be fine.

 

Only problem with low end PCs and laptops in ONI is that gas/liquid mechanics are not the same, they will get bottled occasionally, and dupes are a little bit dumber I think.

[Saturnus]

9 minutes ago, Arash70 said:

The recommended gpu should be 1050ti for this game

A Ryzen APU is absolutely fine and damn cry better deal than any Intel+dGPU combo.

Your limitation I think was mainly RAM. 4GB is just a little too little by todays standards.

[Arash70]

6 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

A Ryzen APU is absolutely fine and damn cry better deal than any Intel+dGPU combo.

GPU prices are way off their values

You're right the best option right now would be the new Ryzen APU series.

I'm speaking from my own experience (I got a 7700k+1050ti oc right now)

 

[TehPlayer14]

5 minutes ago, Arash70 said:

GPU prices are way off their values

You're right the best option right now would be the new Ryzen APU series.

I'm speaking from my own experience (I got a 7700k+1050ti oc right now)

 

But for a laptop user, a 1050m or 1050ti would do.

@Saturnus

@Arash70

Remember that iGPU relies on sharing on ram memory to work also it needs to be fast ram in order to get good performance out of it

[Saturnus]

4 minutes ago, Arash70 said:

But for a laptop user, a 1050m or 1050ti would do.

Again, I think that currently a Ryzen mobile APU laptop is a far better deal and quite sufficient to run the game than any Intel+dGPU combo.

[Arash70]

Just now, Saturnus said:

Again, I think that currently a Ryzen mobile APU laptop is a far better deal and quite sufficient to run the game than any Intel+dGPU combo.

Not much different,

These all would do the job:

intel: i5 (7gen) + 950m, i3 (7gen) + 920m, i7 8809G, i7 8709G, i7 8706G, i7 8705G, i5 8305G

or any new amd apu + 8gbs of ddr4 ram.

[Saturnus]

10 minutes ago, TehPlayer14 said:

Remember that iGPU relies on sharing on ram memory to work also it needs to be fast ram in order to get good performance out of it

RAM prices are high at the moment. Not anywhere near the totally ludicrous dGPU prices but it also means one good thing. The difference between high and low speed RAM is very minor at moment. In most cases the jump from 2x4GB 2400 to 2x4GB 3200 is less than $10. In some cases as little as $2 difference.

4 minutes ago, Arash70 said:

Not much different,

These all would do the job:

intel: i5 (7gen) + 950m, i3 (7gen) + 920m, i7 8809G, i7 8709G, i7 8706G, i7 8705G, i5 8305G

I don't think we'll be seeing many that buys i7 8809Gs and play ONI. I might but these chips supposedly are going to cost OEMs $435 each. That's ultra premium laptop territory.

[Ciderblock]

On 2/13/2018 at 10:33 AM, TehPlayer14 said:

Multi-threading isn't hard to implement now, the game is in alpha yes but it should be done as early as possible to not have to rewrite whole code to queue code to different cpu cores

Multi-threading is definitely challenging to do in such a way that you actually accomplish some acceleration, especially if you want to preserve the semantics of your serial code. ONI already has some non-semantics-preserving optimizations in its serial code. For example, the fact that light gases drift left and heavy gases drift right is a quirk of how the gas update code works. Parallelizing that would most likely result in a totally different weird quirk (though those quirks might be sufficiently random that they effectively cancel out).

[Master Miner]

29 minutes ago, Ciderblock said:

Multi-threading is definitely challenging to do in such a way that you actually accomplish some acceleration, especially if you want to preserve the semantics of your serial code. ONI already has some non-semantics-preserving optimizations in its serial code. For example, the fact that light gases drift left and heavy gases drift right is a quirk of how the gas update code works. Parallelizing that would most likely result in a totally different weird quirk (though those quirks might be sufficiently random that they effectively cancel out).

Even if all of the gas simulation would be in a single thread, there is so much stuff that can be done in parallel to it.

And even for gases, calculations for separated rooms can be done in parallel, while calculations for large rooms can probably also be divided and executed in parallel without any noticeable differences. Again, multi-threading isn't that difficult, especially if it is properly planned in advance.

[Arash70]

Guys guys, this is a unity game, don't forget, there are multi-threading limitations.

[TheScaryOne]

On 2/13/2018 at 5:24 PM, Arash70 said:

I'd like to see CUDA optimizations, that would help most of the pc/laptop users.

Wouldn't do anything for like 30+% of us. AMD GPUs are on board new generation Intel chips. 

On 2/14/2018 at 2:37 AM, PhailRaptor said:

The thing about multi-core processors is that not everyone has them. 

Anything past a ten year old P4 is multicore. AMD beat Intel to the punch with the Athlon X2. 

On 2/14/2018 at 9:19 PM, CobraA1 said:

Nope! That's a fixable problem. Interestingly enough, the solution is likely to be to put the code that saves the game into a separate thread.

Can you? I feel like the save hiccup is there in every Unity game. 

[Roboson]

10 hours ago, TehPlayer14 said:

According to steam hardware *COUGH* http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/  

70% of people have 4 cpu cores and 2 cores are only 20% so minority at most

To have a dualcore cpu you need to go back in time to 2006 (or really cheap laptop)

There is likely a TON of survey response bias here. A better representation of the data there is "70% of steam users who answer questions about how good their computers are, have good computers :P"

[Saturnus]

7 hours ago, TehPlayer14 said:

To have a dualcore cpu you need to go back in time to 2006 (or really cheap laptop)

What are you talking about? Pretty much all laptops sold in the last 6-8 years are dual core. Intel only switched to 4 cores with the most recent 8th generation of U series mobile chips before that every i3, i5 and i7 in the mobile U series was dual core. Similarly all Pentiums sold in the last 6-8 years, you know the budget CPUs that far outsells the Core i3/5/7 series in units sold, have been dual core.

Steam hardware survey means absolutely nothing. Nobody cares to answer it unless they have a first rate system. It is literally garbage statistics.

[greggbert]

The game is very efficient and the developers are doing great work. There's a lot more that can be optimized if needed.  And when they've needed to optimize, they've done it in ways that show that they know what they're doing. 

For example It's obvious that they have lowered the amount of times per second that calories, etc.. are recalculated as part of their performance update.  If you're able to do that it means you have strong object oriented design which means you probably have other things you can easily tweak to improve performance.

As for multi-threading, it is often NOT the best option for indie game development.  Costs are much higher, since debugging multi-threaded applications is very time consuming.  For example if you set a break point you don't know what thread you are breaking on and it can take lots of work to track down bugs.

Also, if your application'/game does not have a lot of large problem sets, and consists of mostly small ones, there is actually a performance overhead involved in spawning new threads, and you could end up with slower performance.

A good application design is going to try to minimize problem sets to manageable workload and from what I've seen of Klei games throughout their many early access projects, it's obvious that they have excellent software design.

[CobraA1]

On 2/21/2018 at 12:23 PM, TheScaryOne said:

Can you? I feel like the save hiccup is there in every Unity game. 

I hope so. If the C# support that Unity has includes all of the features of C#, then certainly it could be done. But if Unity limits how C# is used, then maybe not. Right now, it's just using the default behavior of Unity.

[TheGCat]

The GPU isn't important. The game is just CPU limited.

The performance is just better as at the beginning. The problem I see is, that with each update the performance increase will be destroyed through new added stuff. In the automation update they did a great performance job. I have a bigbase savegame and had an increase of 100% in frames per second. But the new update destroy the whole thing. It's not dropped by 100% again, but in my opinion by 60%.

In my opinion the game will never be a game, who u can build big bases (whole map) with 30 Dupes and 60 FPS per second. That will never happens.  Much beautiful games have real performance issues in the lategame with great bases.

Myself I have an old I7 3930K and researched about the new generations. The newest I7 6 Core 7800x or a similar Ryzen is just 26% faster than mine. Think about how old is my cpu. And everybody knows.... the game isn't a multi threading game. A new CPU were wasted money.