Should Occupational Upgrade be revised

[BlueLance]

Hello Everyone, Please no fighting or arguing in this post, I just want the devs to see everyone's opinions in one location as I have seen multiple threads with a lot of likes by other players who agree and dislike the update.

• I personally like the new update but I do believe the stats or at least the knowledge a dupe learns from a job should be retained and not deleted when removing a hat.
• I also do not think there should be a limit on the amount of dupes able to be tied to a job (Current Limit is 3)
• I like how food expectations increase and actually cause a player to think what do they wan there dupes to eat, I had to build a massage table for the first time in a while with my usual base build, and I also have to think of new farm designs because I only used to use mealwood.

But please everyone like this thread, and hopefully we, together with the devs will make this game even better, they may not reply but I believe they read if there is a lot of heat. Please make sure to Like this topic so it gets heat

[Ch4050v3rl0rd]

Hello everyone, this is my first post, normally i'm a silent reader

My opinion is yes, here some reasons:

the Job system seems like a good idea, but lacks in real gameplay: i think it woul'd be better that a Dupe that finish a job should hold the Boni from the Job no matter if he stays there or we gave them a fully different Job. What i think they could do is the following: if a Dupe is finished in one Job, he an do the other Jobs as well but get a learning-debuff (like 50% or so)

for example: One DUpe is 100% "Supply", but i need a new Cook quickly, so i gave him the Cooking-Hat and send him to the kitchen. So his primary Job is "Supply", and in the Supply-Tree he stay at 100% learning-speed, but all other jobs (in this case cooking) he will learn 50% slower. Maybe even further slwoer on the 3rd or 4th job, but every finished Job gaves the bonus for permanent.

AND maybe it would be nice that we still have the old skill-system, maybe that the job-relatet skill are learning quicker than the others.

the second thing i would like to see improved is the Priority-system, for me, its a little bit frustrating to have a cook waiting for the supplys for his Micro-Musher or Elecric-grill (even on priority 5*), but when i allo him to "supply" things, he supplys everything but not his Kitchen (still the kitchen 5*), same for Farmers etc... i would like to see that a Dupe supplys primary his job, than does his job, and as last resort, when he has nothing to do in his job (no food to make, no research, no crops to water etc..), before he gets idle, then, and only then, he runs all ober the place and helps the supply-Dupe carrying stuff through the base.

and the UI is a little bit strange... it shows me that i have 40 pincha-pepper-nuts in my colony, and so i queue the filled berry (stuffed berry... don't know how it name sin english), after to realise that all 40 pinchas are not reachable in any way... so my half colony is starving and as last resort i have to let them eat the normal berrys... and i wonder why the hell no one supplys the pinhas to the grill...

 

just my 2-cent, i'm no native english-speaker, so i hope i wrote it down readable, sorry for errors, mistakes and other stuff

thanks and have a nice day

 

edit: btw: the new food-system, yes, it needs an overhaul, but espeialy for beginners, i think its made to hard... don't knwo what to say about this, but i think there is a little rework needet too...

[ScottFree]

Yes, they should rework the number and tasks for each job. The advancement paths should be developed so the end result is better understood and tested.

[Mjello]

---- The hmm stuff - Its a waiting game - not fun

But when you need a mechatronics engineer... The game becomes a waiting game... I mean like just waiting for the guy to get mastery.... Is sooo game stop playing.. *yawn.

Research is like waiting waiting... not really much else there. I mean make an artifact that you have to dig out of a slime burrow in order to get steam.

Let another be in a cold biome burrow that you need to get exosuit so you can enter the slime burrow without getting seriously ill.

So that you have to dig out and explore in order to get your research. Might be cumbersome...

To continue reading go here

[Zarquan]

I think this update would be a great addition to the game with a few modifications:

• Any task involving a professions equipment is prioritized by that profession.  For example, a cook will get food from the fridge or the farm to cook with rather than waiting for a courier.  A farmer will build farm tiles.
• Masteries should give a permanent bonus.  It should probably be smaller than the job bonus, but is should be significant enough to make training dupes more worthwhile.
• Their interests should be reflected a little in their skill levels. 
• Gastrophobic who is interested in cooking should not be something the printing pod produces.
• Number of job slots should scale with the number of duplicants.  I play big colonies and run out of jobs slots, leading to unemployed dupes with no skills despite the fact that I have work for another miner.
• Maybe meal lice should take less dirt but also requires water?  A new player to the game might just grow tons of meal lice and end up running out of dirt very quickly.  I feel taking dirt and water (which would likely correspond to a reduction in water cost for liceloaf) would make more sense and would still make people not want to grow for very long.  I agree that meal lice was OP in the previous patches.
• Training rooms should probably be implemented.  If I have a new apprentice digger, I should be able to train him in digging.  However, the base is enclosed in abyssalite and there is nothing that he can dig.  This is a problem for jobs in general.  It is hard to get the high level jobs when most of the work in the low levels of that field have already been done.

Things I like about the patch

• I like the jobs system (apart from what I said before).  Having a few dupes who specialize in farming and become amazing at it is better than what we had before.  Or some dupes who specialize in running who can go faster than other dupes.
• I like that brissle blossoms now don't take 80 kg of water per cycle and can actually be used.
• I like that cooking doesn't hurt the colony anymore.
• I like that the smart buildings.  They are very nice for managing resources and power.
• I like that item moving can be automated now (without using door tricks).  I can seal off some of my more undesirable areas far away and just use a conveyor to bring stuff to the base.  It opens up more of the map to development, which is even more important now that the dupes are slower.
• I honestly like that the dupes are a bit slower.  They were kind of superhuman in their speed, which made some parts of the game too easy.  Though I do think you went a little overboard on slowing them down.  The older dupes were always so much more powerful than the newer dupes.
• I like that exosuits are no longer so overpowered.  You can't just have your dupes wake up, all put on their exosuits, and spend all day in them and not have to worry anymore. 

I would have liked an option on the poll to keep most of it and make some improvements rather than drawing board or keep it the same.

[Queron81]

7 hours ago, BlueLance said:

I personally like the new update but I do believe the stats or at least the knowledge a dupe learns from a job should be retained and not deleted when removing a hat.

How about this solution: when the hat is removed, the knowledge for this job should decrease by 5% per cycle, unless the dupe is doing this job (without hat), then there shouldn't be a decrease for this time.

[Michi01]

39 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

How about this solution: when the hat is removed, the knowledge for this job should decrease by 5% per cycle, unless the dupe is doing this job (without hat), then there shouldn't be a decrease for this time.

I think perhaps there should be a certain amount of permanent experience that a dupe acquires when mastering a job that is lower than the amount of experience that they get when staying in the job.

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

I think perhaps there should be a certain amount of permanent experience that a dupe acquires when mastering a job that is lower than the amount of experience that they get when staying in the job.

The simple solution is: the job gives temporary stat bonus while holding the job and mastery of the job gives permanent stat bonus.

For example, a gofer get +2 while being a gofer. The dupe gets +2 when mastering it. These stack to a combined +4 to a master gofer. He is promoted to Courier which gives +4 job bonus, so now he's at +6 combined. And mastery gives an additional +4 bonus, so +10 total.

He could then move to another job and retain his combined +6 job mastery bonuses.

[Michi01]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

The simple solution is: the job gives temporary stat bonus while holding the job and mastery of the job gives permanent stat bonus.

For example, a gofer get +2 while being a gofer. The dupe gets +2 when mastering it. These stack to a combined +4. He is promoted to Courier which gives +4 job bonus, so now he's at +6 combined. And mastery gives an additional +4 bonus, so +10 total.

On one hand I like this idea, but on the other it would, perhaps even more than the current system, encourage players to constantly micromanage and switch the jobs of dupes.

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

On one hand I like this idea, but on the other it would, perhaps even more than the current system, encourage players to constantly micromanage and switch the jobs of dupes.

It still takes a good while to master a mid tier job so I'm fine with that. Dupes that has survived 200 cycles should be vastly superior to dupes straight out of the printer. Maybe not as much as before, and it probably should not just happen automatically as before.

[Mjello]

Just voted no to take it back to the drawing board.

I see a lot of potential in the system they designed. But a lot of polishing is needed. And that is only natural in a preview.

I think the basic idea is good. It lacks a lot of things and is hampered a lot by a annoying GUI.

But not to repeat myself just go read here if you are interested in my feedback.

To see my feedback to the developers look here

[vovik]

Why? Jobs seem redaundant since "job" concept IS NOT IMPLEMENTED.

We can already fix person by job by just simply setting high priority to task and applying access restriction.
After this update this havent changed.
Oh, what is changed then? Update is NERF. Sure, you gave players more rooms, rebalanced plants, added more buildings(one of which is unusable, but ill return to it later), but DID NOT implement the concept of job properly. Why? Because "Yay, now i dont have to do access restrictions that much annymore" - but for realz i assign farmer/chief/engineer and he just.. delivers.. or does any other stuff, so jobs even dont give anything except for artificial complexity and nerf by restricting access to buildings(oh, i forgot to mention this?) oh, for f* sake! Would you please introduce mechanics that IMPROVE gameplay INSTEAD OF MAKING IT MORE COMPLEX?

This is in short and what about more detailed view?
There are few simple solutions to IMPROVE jobs:

1. add "Virtual priority" - virtual +1/+2/+3 on jobs matching profession, so dupe pays less attention to other jobs
2. Fix dupe jobs so they do THEIR and only THEIR job, not looking at ANY other job that is not related to profession(Unless strict priority, yeah)
3. Fix damm job assosiations - so ONLY chief does stuff with food stations(deliver/cook), ONLY architect delivers to build errrands and builds, etc... sure, some tasks need to be split - like delivering to food strorages is for chef/gofer(but not groundkeeper, let him tidy stuff), ONLY "tidy" job attached to compactor(so gofers stop delivering to compactors and start delivering to working buildings at last). Problems with job assosiations were even before - when there was no distinguishing between deliver and sweep task assigned to compactor, but i didnt think it will grow THIS LARGE, but yes, it DID.

Targets of these solutions:

1 - focus duplicants on their profession-related task more
2 - full focus of duplicant on their job, so dupes will finally do what they are supposed to do, also strict priority will finally matter 
3 - less micromanagement and better job specialization

Jobs assigned to buildings were not consistent even before the occupation update, why you didnt apply fix 3 before? Huh? Oh, its because before overbuffed duplicants issue made iccorect job associations negligible.. till now!

I would solution2&3 combined.

Lets talk about other stuff, shall we?

No permanent lvl-up - taking some exercise makes you more fit for kinda long time... meanwhile in "training not included" - training to a courier and then loosing the profession makes you...LESS TRAINED IN ONE SECOND!!111 whohooo!

Job limit - oh, and yet ANOTHER artificial NERF, why do you even need to limit jobs?

Power tuning building voids metal?

What does it use it to? automagically annihilates it into photons that are used to magically improve generators? Sacifices metal to god of power so he boosts generators? Replaces worked-out parts with more refined parts to mechanically increase generator power production? (If its the latter - how about dropping equal mass of unrefined metal from replaced parts? It will also allow converting refined metal back to standart one if need arises, and will at last make ore refinery more valuable at endgame)

Problem is in numbers - lets say that we have a small power plant that needs buffing with about 30 kgs of refined metal - thats 30 kgs every 3 days, and 1.2 tonns of metal for 120 cycles? reasonable? maybe, but it will eventually void the metal out of map to.. where? Accounting that natgas generation is limited, petroleum generation is limited, coal is even MORE limited and hamsterwheels taking duplicant time - adding building that consumes metal for power seems stupid. No one will use it, because !metal annihilation!
Also, this includes repair - mass of repaired building does not change mass of building, but requires material delivey - leads to material voiding, and this is an obscure danger for players.. why is this still in game? (Coal generators with hatches are allowed to anihilate material and only them! :P)

Other
Add chlorine geyser back goddamit!!!! Why did you even limited us to 2 steam/2natgas /1 chlorine to 2/2/0 or 2/1/1 ?

With every update playing oni makes me more frustrated... Maybe i need to become more dumb to not mention such little things?

Also, there are 3 buttons - Add, improve, nerf. Kleientertainment, latest update "Who needs improve button?"

Sorry for bad language. Vovik out.

[Mjello]

2 hours ago, vovik said:

Why? Jobs seem redaundant since "job" concept IS NOT IMPLEMENTED.

We can already fix person by job by just simply setting high priority to task and applying access restriction.

Last update seems to limit only proficient personal to do task like digging very hard rock or cooking pepper bread. So the dupe need the correct job and training in order to execute a certain task. Might still be bugged but works for me now.

[vovik]

22 minutes ago, Mjello said:

Last update seems to limit only proficient personal to do task like digging very hard rock or cooking pepper bread. So the dupe need the correct job and training in order to execute a certain task. Might still be bugged but works for me now.

Uhh, did you read the whole post? Dont you see that jobs system doesnt actually add anything new that was not achivable before it?

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, vovik said:

Uhh, did you read the whole post? Dont you see that jobs system doesnt actually add anything new that was not achivable before it?

... but hats, right? Gotta love hats that hide one of the only ways you could tell dupes apart, ie. their hairdo, no? 

[vovik]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

... but hats, right? Gotta love hats that hide one of the only ways you could tell dupes apart, ie. their hairdo, no? 

hmmm, hats... nice addition. However, saturnus, stop kidding

[Mjello]

58 minutes ago, vovik said:

Uhh, did you read the whole post? Dont you see that jobs system doesnt actually add anything new that was not achivable before it?

Honestly no, it was so very long... But if you look at the game they take inspiration from, you might get why they do what they do  
Did you ever play dwarf fortress? It is all about getting simple things to be very complicated.

That said. I really miss their hair. It is a very big part of a dupes personality. But hey now they are just workers.... Do we really care who they are. Just minions. I let the ones with the best hair style go jobless *gg*. Might make a good parody on society.

Another weird little thing. The shade overlay in the top of my screen is blinking like crazy... Very annoying.

[vovik]

3 minutes ago, Mjello said:

Honestly no, it was so very long... But if you look at the game they take inspiration from, you might get why they do what they do  
Did you ever play dwarf fortress? It is all about getting simple things to be very complicated.

That said. I really miss their hair. It is a very big part of a dupes personality. But hey now they are just workers.... Do we really care who they are. Just minions. I let the ones with the best hair style go jobless *gg*. Might make a good parody on society.

Another weird little thing. The shade overlay in the top of my screen is blinking like crazy... Very annoying.

hmm, intresting point, if you have read it fully - then you should have read why i said it in the first place and that i suggested solutions.

[Mjello]

Steam turbine is still blocked whenever there is any kind of gas on the other side. Unless there is vacuum it do not work... Maybe it should be able to tolerate a little bit of oxygen without becoming blocked. Creating a vacuum is nearly impossible in any space larger than a few tiles.

And heat is still wonky like always.

[vovik]

If this topic get s the heat i would also leave this here, maybe this gets considered and implemented(who am i bothering, of course not).
Thing that also frustrates me(and not only me): Agriculture
Agriculture is the cultivation and breeding of animals, plants ... ...Modern agronomy, plant breeding, agrochemicals such as... ...and fertilizers, and technological developments have in many cases sharply increased yields from cultivation,
And from simple life logic - if you plant a wild plant into a pot or into cultivated soil.. it grows.. not requiring fertili\ation for a long time.. wild plant.
ONI: wild plant grows... if you plant it in the same size box with cultivated soil it doesnt grow as it would in wild, in fact it doesnt grow at all.. IT IS BINARY. EAL WITH IT.

From agriculture upgrade plants had to be fertilized to grow better, but did not require fertilization to grow... It was scrapped for sake of simpler system.. Okay. Simple system became binary when in farm plots: Or you supply it - or not, and if there is no fertilizer or phosphorite(Limited, by the way) - plant does not grow! Still people whine that agriculture is not good enough...

Suggestion:

Wild growth of plants contunues in farm plot if all basic wild growth needs supplied.

Supplying with water or other requested materials gives different cumulative or permanent bonuses to next harvest per each demand satisfied, every damand may give its own set of bonuses, bonuses include, but not limited to:

Bonus types

• Persistent - growth rate supplying mealwood with dirt increases growth speed by 300%(and gain rate&material consumption of other demands, not related to growth rate) untill dirt is depleted in farm plot, etc..
• Cumulative that resets on yield - additional seed chance  each harvest there is 10% chance of getting seed, so lets say default is 0% and it increases to 10%, if demands are satisfied - so plant will yield a seed with 10% chance on harvest if all criterias that give seed harvest bonus are satisfied during the growth time, 10/3% if satisfied 1/3 the time, 5% if only one demand is satisfied during growth time
• Cumulative that is decreased on yield - Additional kcals or yield, for eample supplying pincha peppernut with phosforite gives +x gramms to next yield of nuts, when harvested amount of nuts yielded is increased by maximum amount of gramms that can be taken, and rest is left - so for example we have 5134 (1434 gramms of bonus yield from demand satisfaction), 5000 gramms is dropped as nuts on harvest, 434 is left till next harvest(lets say its a small nut that hasnt grown and was left on plant till next harvest)

Bonus requests:

Material, liquid, temperature, etc...

This was suggested in many forms and many times by different people, but now when you added "additional growth speed" tag and change supercomputer water consumption on reasearch point earned it is really easy to be implemented.

1. Suggested by me system gives everything requested by people - so limited resource will not influence people in late game, plant growth will not be binary in terms growing-not growing, plant yield will not be fixed to single meter that binarily decides how many of what is given on next yield - like was in agriculture upgrade, so decreasing load on forums, decreasing pain in rebalancing food, solving problem with plants once and for all.
2. Also it makes agriculture like in real life - certain plants can be dedicated for seeds, other - for food
3. Suggestion is perfect in terms of trading resources for food - there can be be set fields that cost more time, but not taking toll on precious ressources - wild mealwood farm for example, or ones that give more resources but grow slowly and take some amount of resources per yield - sleet wheat farm that is supplied by fertilizer(more yield), but not supplied by water(growth rate), or farms that grow fast and many - pincha supplied by water(growth speed, more yield) and phosforite(additional yield, seed chance), or pincha farm that grows nuts veery slooowly - not supplied by water or phosforite.
4. Also its perfect in terms of seeds - when not supplying plants with certain materials you can have a seed-free dedicated farm that does not give seeds that cannot be disposed of.
5. Plant spammers will be spared, but still nerfed - plant spamming for coal production will requirie a LOT of space.
6. Clay will become a valuable source of material for farms(because of point 5), not only for coal from hatches.

6 points covered!

Cons - more cpu usage if more plants planted, but hey, its another nerf on plant spammers(so i think it is a 7th covered point)!

Maybe, something like this what was supposed to be implemented in agricultural upgrade?
Also Farm station seems should have been in agricultural.
If this is implemented i would ask to call it "Unoficcial Agricultural upgrade v2" (kidding)

I suggested this system, so imperfections of existing one will stop bothering me and many other people in case this system is implemented.
Thank you for reading my post.

[Kabrute]

If they took jobs like dig art etc and looked at the basic skill requirement met by the job and assigned That as the requirement instead, the stat I mean.  For example a abysallite is double diamond, so someone with a straight up 9 digging should be able to carve it out regardless.  Someone with creativity of 5 aught to be able to work the paint cannon, cooking 8 should be able to step up to the grill even when not wearing the hat.  Am I making sense to anyone else?  A little overlap or some such.

[vovik]

Perfectly yes, and another stone thrown into currently suggested job system.

[Machenoid]

Voted no, because i think the term "revision" goes too far. The idea and the system behind the occupational system is a sound one, it only needs some fixes to certain areas and some of the balance choices. I'll stick to my most pressing problem with the occupation system, because most other "Problems" are really just gameplay styles by players.

 

Occupation limits

23 occupations * 3 dupes max per occupation = 69 dupes who can get stat bonuses. Dupe #70 and on won't get hats or stats. Now obviously the chart isn't complete yet and all sorts of occupations could be invented to fill the empty spaces, and even with a 3-dupe limit there might be enough to give more than 100 dupes occupations a while from now... But you'll still only have a maximum of 3*(Occupation set) (9 miners; 3 grounds-keepers; etc)

Solutions:

-Scale the size of occupation assignments to the population of the colony. This rule could be based on a math formula depending on the tier of the occupation in question or some other stated requirements. Example: In a colony with 99 dupes, there could only be 1/3rd the colony (33) as Couriers because that's a Tier 3 job, and 1/6th the colony (16.5; 16 rounding down) as Tenured Scientists. Consequence: You may end up with more dupes than you want in order to get the number of professions you want, but every dupe should be able to get a some kind of profession, even if it's just apprentice level T1 miner/architect/gofer.

-Allow unlimited occupation assignments while detering every dupe being given an occupation in some way. Example: As masteries are gained in an occupation, that occupation could increase its base tier of demands. After ## Apprentice miners get mastery, the Apprentice miner occupation is promoted to tier 2 decor/food demands. Eventually when all Tier 1 occupations have total mastery, Tier 1 disappears completely and all those Apprentices start at Tier 2. Consequence: Inevitably, even an Apprentice will demand Tier 6 decor/food... And then keep their demands the same as they promote to better mining skill. Every dupe however can have statgains in an occupation the player wants them to, and i'm absolutely certain there will be colonies of only Couriers. (This by itself is not my prefered solution)

-Create another system that leans on or suppliments the Occupation system. Example: "Dupe School" where they learn to increase their stats regardless of their occupation. A multi-media console that a dupe can learn from manually, or be instructed by another more masterful dupe. Consequence: More work and development time implementing a feature that needs artwork and likely more coding than necessary to fix a problem in another, unrelated system. (I don't think this is actually necessary, even if it would be interesting; It's feature bloat)

[goboking]

Yes, for reasons I've elaborated on in other threads.  The short of it is this news system has dupes tripping over each other trying to do their jobs and it can take two or three dupes to do the job a single dupe used to do.  Worse, it pigeonholes the way we play.  We now have to follow Klei's job allocation system instead of devising our own.  Lastly, I hate that I've had half my priority settings taken away from me.

[Mjello]

20 minutes ago, goboking said:

Yes, for reasons I've elaborated on in other threads.  The short of it is this news system has dupes tripping over each other trying to do their jobs and it can take two or three dupes to do the job a single dupe used to do.  Worse, it pigeonholes the way we play.  We now have to follow Klei's job allocation system instead of devising our own.  Lastly, I hate that I've had half my priority settings taken away from me.

Actually the priority settings are just parted in two. If you hit the star, you have 5 five more. They will ignore their own interests when you set yellow priorities.
Lets give them another week and see how it works then.

I think what confuses many is that they work from a queue. I think it is 3 errands queued. So they will do the other errands first before reacting to what you just build a second ago. That gives a long lagtime before they start working on what you want them to. And it makes them do other things than just the one thing that has their interest... It is a little messy so the logic is very hard to spot. And then there is all the bugs that is hard to discern from the logic.

Does anyone have a clearer view on how their errands are actually queued ? And how they select what to do? Distance is factor too.