tepidizer super heater trick dead in preview?

[donutman07]

I was trying to make 200C steam for the new steam turbine with the tepidizer trick but could never get my output any higher than 170C.  Then I loaded an old working crude oil to natural gas boiler, and it immediately broke.  It dropped to around 125C.

Anybody else notice this and/or have a work around?

 

Without the tepidizer trick, getting 200C steam relies on magma or breaking an aquatuner I guess.  Any other ideas?  I personally dislike using magma.  It's a nuisance and non-renewable. 

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, donutman07 said:

Without the tepidizer trick, getting 200C steam relies on magma or breaking an aquatuner I guess.  Any other ideas?  I personally dislike using magma.  It's a nuisance and non-renewable. 

It's not too bad using magma. I'll make a good easy build over the next couple of days.

[donutman07]

also kinda funny, while trying to make the aquatuner heat up the steam I just made a loop of water for it without much thought.

It seems for the moment, water doesn't freeze in pipes. however the aquatuner starts to complain about liquid being too cold

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, donutman07 said:

also kinda funny, while trying to make the aquatuner heat up the steam I just made a loop of water for it without much thought.

It seems for the moment, water doesn't freeze in pipes. however the aquatuner starts to complain about liquid being too cold

Bug report

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

According to my observation, the temperature is limited to no more than 125℃.

Spoiler

 

Before:

Heat generation of machine is divided into two parts, 'Exhaust' and 'Operating'. 

'Operating' heat is added to the machine itself, but 'Exhaust' heat directly heats the liquid/gas on the tiles around the machine.

Now:

When the liquid/gas around are hotter than 125℃, the 'Exhaust' heat will disappear, but the 'Operating' heat won't.

 

You can still acquire a temperature higher than 125℃ by 'Operating' heat, but for me, it's not wise. Because the 'Operating' heat of most machine, including tepidizer, is too small.

However, aquatuner and regulator have no 'Exhaust' and big 'Operating' heat.

 

So you can use aquatuner and regulator to acquire a temperature higher than 125℃. If you don't mind overheat, they can help you heat oil to natural gas. But it's inefficient.

Undoubtedly, magma is a better choice.

 

 

edit.the exhaust is limited to building's overheat temperature.

[feralfoo]

@R9MX4 wouldn't the aquatuner and regulator destroy themselves before reaching 538.85℃ ?

[Kabrute]

actually the aquatuner can be driven over 1000 degrees if you make it from wolframite 1500 degree melting temp.  It will start taking damage at 125 but if you run it full on flat out with some metal plates soaking the heat like we used to use it still works, just a LOT slower and more wonky, a lot of micro managing and decon/rebuilding and its still

[goboking]

44 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

a lot of micro managing

That seems to be a reoccurring theme in this update.

[TheOlz]

I think we all knew the way we were using tepidizers to boil oil wasn't the intended use, it would just be nice if there was a reasonable alternative.

Breaking buildings (or constantly repairing, but who does that?!) to get the desired effect doesn't seem like intended use either.

Curious if/how people manage to get steam generators working without relying on either magma or breaking aquatuners.

If magma is the only option, then I want bigger gas pumps, creating vacuums in a large area is a pain in the proverbial!

[NanoD]

52 minutes ago, TheOlz said:

Curious if/how people manage to get steam generators working without relying on either magma or breaking aquatuners.

Well I cant tell you because I cant get the Damn steam generator to work. pipe blocked issue.. But if it works like I think it works it probably will be the most unbalanced equipment in the game. Well I have to wait to play with it.

[Kabrute]

Saturnus started it with debug, it uses no fuel and produces 8kw per second power once its started and the only way to stop it is to deconstruct it or reload your game.  Completely broken.

[clickrush]

1 hour ago, TheOlz said:

I think we all knew the way we were using tepidizers to boil oil wasn't the intended use, it would just be nice if there was a reasonable alternative.

Breaking buildings (or constantly repairing, but who does that?!) to get the desired effect doesn't seem like intended use either.

Curious if/how people manage to get steam generators working without relying on either magma or breaking aquatuners.

If magma is the only option, then I want bigger gas pumps, creating vacuums in a large area is a pain in the proverbial!

I'am assuming that the steam turbine is really just a preview for a future technology chain.

I'am not convinced that we get a power generator that doesn't have a sustainable method of fueling it. Steam based power is usually a way to use the energy of very hot reactions.

However I wonder how the math behind this thing will look like. Apparently it must have a net cooling effect, since it cools the surrounding steam somehow, based on other people's observations, and the coolant output has a fixed temperature of 90C. Meaning you could possibly put in polluted water at about 100C and get a massive free cooling bonus?

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, TheOlz said:

If magma is the only option, then I want bigger gas pumps, creating vacuums in a large area is a pain in the proverbial!

Start with building a water lock. Then another in the vacuum behind the first. Everything you dig out behind the water locks will be a vacuum automatically. No need to pump out gas at all. 

[ChenBill900703]

My high efficiency power plant completely damaged in the recent update.

[Coolthulhu]

On 1/26/2018 at 12:59 AM, R9MX4 said:

According to my observation, the temperature is limited to no more than 125℃.

It's not, the exhaust is limited to building's overheat temperature.

I just checked with with abyssalite refrigerators which have only exhaust heat and 2075C overheat temperature. They have only 2.5W of heat, but it's still visible if you heat up 100g of chlorine per tile or something like that.

[donutman07]

Metal refinery made of abyssalite running at 3000C the new tepidizer?

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

2 minutes ago, donutman07 said:

Metal refinery made of abyssalite running at 3000C the new tepidizer?

But metal refinery consumes metal ore, the ore is limited. And heat generation of metal refinery is very small when comparing with tepidizer or aquatuner. If you want to boil oil, metal refinery's exhaust heat is unhelpful.

But don't forget metal refinery also exhausts a huge amount of heat to liquid. Maybe we should take advantage of it.

[donutman07]

1 minute ago, R9MX4 said:

But don't forget metal refinery also exhausts a huge amount of heat to liquid. Maybe we should take advantage of it.

good call, heat up some petroleum or crude to ~300-400 and use it to warm up the steam maybe. 

[Zarquan]

I was looking at the numbers, and I'm curious:  Doesn't boiling crude oil to natural gas produce heat energy?  I mean as a net gain simply from the act of boiling, not just from getting there.  Because it is all 1:1 conversions, and natural gas has a higher thermal capacity than crude oil or petroleum:

Natural Gas has a thermal capacity of 2.191 J/g/K

Crude Oil has a thermal capacity of 1.69 J/g/K

Petroleum has a thermal capacity of 1.76 J/g/K.

If you heat 1 gram of Crude Oil from 60 C to 400C, that takes 574.6 J.  It appears the phase change takes about 4C when it phase changes in to converted to petroleum, so now the petroleum starts at 396C and goes to 538.9, which takes 251.5 J.  Then, you have natural gas, which lost about 6 C in the phase change, so it is now 532.9.  Suppose now we took all of the heat out of the natural gas, down to 60C.  That means there would be 1036.1 J of heat energy.  That means we don't need to provide heat for the system and we get 210 J of energy in excess (which means we can take that and heat something else with it.  That is per gram of crude oil.  If we can scale up the system to 10kg/s, then the amount of heat we can produce is 2.1 MW (that's megawatts) of power (2100000 J/s).

2.1 MW of heat power is enough to heat 5 kg of steam from 100C to 200C per second.

Keep in mind that this is not raw electrical power, so don't go thinking you can just hook this up to your power grid. 

There is no real risk of overheating because very little machinery is actually used.  Maybe a couple thermoregulators in the cooler areas of the system.  This means that you can use a bit of magma as a primer and get endless heat energy with which you can do what ever you want (as long as you can provide the crude oil). 

I believe there are around 40 slicksters per map, and they can produce 250 g/s of crude oil (according to the wiki, I don't like doing animal experiments).  If these numbers are correct, then you can reasonably produce approximately 10,000 kg of crude oil at about 60C renewably. 

Could this be the new trick?  I'll try building a system and see how it goes.  Warning: It will be utterly huge.

Please tell me if the values I stated changed in the latest patch.

[Zarquan]

So, I built it.  I may have build it too big, but here is my design:

 

 

It either isn't working or hasn't stabilized yet.

 

The design:

• Oil enters at 60C on the right (near the gas pumps) at 10 kg/s. 
• It then goes through the switchbacks, picking up the heat from the natural gas as it goes. 
• It enters the chamber on the right, where it boils out of the pipe in to petroleum, which quickly boils in to natural gas.
• The natural gas then flows (slowly) to the left through the switchbacks to heat the crude oil.  The natural gas emerges on the other side at 60C. 
• I then pump the 60C natural gas away in the left room.  I could run it through a thermoregulator if I wanted.

All the tiles are made of abyssalite. I could almost certainly have made it smaller, but I thought it was safer to go large to ensure all the natural gas's heat would go to the crude oil.

 

My thinking is as the pressure increases, eventually the switchback will reach on equilibrium where 10kg/s of natural gas emerges on the left, which can be pumped away at that rate.

 

I don't see why it isn't working. 

 

Do they make an attempt to conserve energy when the petroleum boils by calculating the thermal energy in the petroleum and calculating what the temperature of the natural gas should be from that?  I don't think this is the case

 

Even if it isn't working, I can easily create heat in this system by pulling out the crude oil from the pipes in the middle of the switchback and heating the oil there.

[donutman07]

I'm confused by the picture what's your heat source?

[Kabrute]

1 minute ago, donutman07 said:

I'm confused by the picture what's your heat source?

Debug mode

[Zarquan]

@Kabrute @donutman07

Originally, yes.  I used debug mode to produce this situation.  However, there is currently no external heat source in this system.  It runs pretty much on its own for many cycles before breaking down. 

You could get this effect with magma as your original external heat source.  It should run forever and produce extra heat, but it isn't and I am not sure why.

In case you don't want to read my original post, it should be creating heat because when the crude oil boils to natural gas, its specific heat capacity increases.  That means the thermal mass increased, but the temperature stayed about the same, which results in an increase in thermal energy.  I then take all that thermal energy and put it back in to the crude oil, which should achieve a higher temperature because there is more energy.

I would argue the heat source is the act of boiling crude oil to natural gas, as that conversion produces heat energy.

The issue is that I don't know why it isn't working.  According to my math, I should be getting large amounts of heat off of this

[clickrush]

15 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

Originally, yes.  I used debug mode to produce this situation.  However, there is currently no external heat source in this system.  It runs pretty much on its own for many cycles before breaking down.  You could get this effect with magma as your heat source.  It should run forever and produce extra heat, but it isn't and I am not sure why. 

I would argue the heat source is the act of boiling crude oil to natural gas, as that conversion produces heat energy.

That's a very neat idea. I also assumed that for example using an aquatuner to boil polluted water and then later cooling that water (after the steam settles) would produce net cooling as the heat capacity of pollutet water is 1/3 higher. I haven't tested this but I just assumed it worked that way. In essence it would be the same principle as your idea.

Maybe the state changes actually use up the energy in your case, allthough this would surprise me as ONI isn't known for being particularly meticulous when it comes to thermo dynamics.

What I rather think is that you are actually removing the heat by pumping away the gas in the end. To test this you'd have to first make an actual closed system and then see if it heats up as long as there is still petroleum/oil in the system.

[Zarquan]

I have noticed the state changes do absorb energy.  When I paint in 3000K petroleum, I get 2996K natural gas.

The gas I pump away at the end is all 60C, which is the same temperature as my starting crude oil, so I don't think that is where I am losing heat.

Could it be the drip cooling bug?  The petroleum effectively drips out of the pipes and glitches and cools something more than it is heated?  Now I need to build a smaller machine of this type that just does petroleum.  I shouldn't lose anything by doing that.

For now I will see if filling the right chamber with airflow tiles (to stop the petroleum from moving).   Maybe that solves the drip cooling bug?  I don't know.

 

EDIT:  The airflow tile idea did not work...  The issue is that the liquid keeps trying to fall, so it clears the tile under it, creating a vacuum that stops it from heating up

SECOND EDIT:  I tried it again, but I decided to preheat the airflow tiles and it appears to be working.  I am going to leave it on high speed for a while then come back to it.  I don't appear to be getting any heat from it, but the crude oil is boiling at the same point every time.  I used iron because of it's high thermal capacity.  The issue is that I don't know if it is just slowly using up the heat or if it is actually stable.