The good, the bad, and the Willow

[Arlesienne]

6 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Make the lighter not use durability only for Willows then. Onequip if Willow removes finiteuses component, but the % gets saved in a variable. Done.

Maaaybe... still a tad OP for me. It's cheap as dirt to craft.

[Frosty_Mentos]

10 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

They are pretty bad, I think. Also, introducing all the changes isn't that hard and time-consuming as you think. You're exaggerating. Seriously, have you tried modding? If you know what you're doing then things don't take forever. And even if something needs to be adjusted, it can be patched right away.

Not everything about her is very bad, you just don't seem to know much how you gotta play as her that much as I do. Not that I am saying that you know nothing, but that just sounds like you don't like her at all as being "useful" for the team. 

Btw, its maybe easy to adjust things, but do you know how many people play this game? I bet they gotta test a lot if something won't break in the process and send the update to all the dst users

[PanAzej]

8 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Maaaybe... still a tad OP for me. It's cheap as dirt to craft.

Yeah, but that's her perk, isn't it? Nobody complains about Lucy being infinite for Woodie...

7 minutes ago, Mantas said:

Not everything about her is very bad, you just don't seem to know much how you gotta play as her that much as I do. Not that I am saying that you know nothing, but that just sounds like you don't like her at all as being "useful" for the team.

I play some Willow every now and then, and she doesn't do much. Her sanity is low but she doesn't get a cool perk, like Webber. Her perk is 'stand in one place around a fire and wait' and 'has a bit better torch that can't be crafted early game and later becomes obsolete'. Honestly, the only use I found for her is cooking with her Lighter. Nobody wants my Lighers, they're useless for them.

10 minutes ago, Mantas said:

Btw, its maybe easy to adjust things, but do you know how many people play this game? I bet they gotta test a lot if something won't break in the process and send the update to all the dst users

They're developers, I think they wouldn't make really simple mistakes (and balancing a character is simple, unless you add some new mechanics going in-depth). I'm mostly testing my stuff myself, and yeah, there's broken stuff sometimes, but most of them I quickly find and fix.

[Frosty_Mentos]

9 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Make the lighter not use durability only for Willows then.

What's the point of making them, if nobody else gonna use them anyway then? If it's infinite for Willow, then the cooking ability would be removed, which I mostly gonna start hating, cuz i like cooking my food on a go ;-;

[Bebbit]

The title almost implies Willow is ugly.

 

Well, at least she doesn't have Wendy's corn cake hair.

[Frosty_Mentos]

9 minutes ago, Bebbit said:

The title almost implies Willow is ugly.

 

Well, at least she doesn't have Wendy's corn cake hair.

Where is the dislike button when you need it?

[PanAzej]

14 minutes ago, Bebbit said:

The title almost implies Willow is ugly.

 

Well, at least she doesn't have Wendy's corn cake hair.

Quote

RAZOR = "What's it even for?"

Willow doesn't shave... She's all hairy down there.

I'm talking about legs, of course. Maybe you like hairy legs. Well, who I am to judge.

17 minutes ago, Mantas said:

What's the point of making them, if nobody else gonna use them anyway then? If it's infinite for Willow, then the cooking ability would be removed, which I mostly gonna start hating, cuz i like cooking my food on a go ;-;

It could be solved in multiple ways, or cooking not removed at all.

Since Shipwrecked I see that people want the character's special abilities to be nerfed all the time. It's like they forgot that there's a character that has super-powerful magical books and a character that completely stomps his enemies with a full stomach.

[Frosty_Mentos]

21 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

Since Shipwrecked I see that people want the character's special abilities to be nerfed all the time. It's like they forgot that there's a character that has super-powerful magical books and a character that completely stomps his enemies with a full stomach.

Yes, but we should rather discuss about one at the time, which also this topic not about anyone else, but if you say it that way, then most characters should be close to having that kind of powers (not similar, but be powerful too). This is more PvP kind of thing that will be needed discussed.

I hate how people usually say "nerf this/that", what about not neefing and just adding things to other characters to have some similar but different strengths and uses? (Besides Wes)

I rather just get the fire immunity back and sanity freezing removed, which are good first steps for being as strong as the "superior" characters, and then whatever the devs beautiful minds with beautiful imaginations could add for making Willow and some others have their own very interesting new abilities that could be awesome to have, but that they would be balanced enough :3

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

So, based on what I've read, I would guess it would be pretty good for us overall if:

* Willow has fire immunity.

* Bernie damages nightmares, based on how much damage is dealt to him.

* Willow's lighter can be refueled via Charcoal, can be crafted and only runs out of durability whilst other characters have them equipped. It will also always run out of durability whilst you cook with it.

* Willow has a Fire Meter (It represents Willow's temperature, which goes down and up based on Willow's sanity, external temperature and other heat/cold controlling elements).

 

So, then what does everybody think about Bernie being exclusive to Willow again (as in being active only when Willow goes insane, so as not to make it so that people want just the bear and not Willow herself) and following Willow when dropped down (obviously doing his little dance whilst not too far from Willow/whilst Willow is not moving)?

Edit: Also, I should mention that the lighter takes up inventory slots, whilst the campfire itself doesn't.

[Bebbit]

2 hours ago, Mantas said:

Where is the dislike button when you need it?

Rude. I thought you liked Willow!

[PanAzej]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

* Bernie damages nightmares, based on how much damage is dealt to him.

Why would you want to do this? You want it to become an automatic Nightmare Fuel farm? And at the same time make insanity not a problem at all? Nah.

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

* Willow's lighter can be refueled via Charcoal, can be crafted and only runs out of durability whilst other characters have them equipped. It will also always run out of durability whilst you cook with it.

I'd rather make something special for her lighter. Maybe let others cook using it, but cooking on it uses up more durability and deals some low damage (1-3 dmg per cooking). This was a thing in the code actually, but it's unused.

Give the Lighter some utility? Maybe it could be refueled with fire. You'd get some lighter fuel back from extinguishing burning structures.

Or add cold-fire switch to it. Cold fire could be used to extinguish regular fires. Maybe also let items get set on cold fire? Could be extinguished by regular fire, so anybody can do it.

 

Also, to make it so there's less griefing potential by burning stuff, when a player sets something on fire, it starts smoldering first. So there's a short amount of time to prevent burning your base down by some random guy.

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

* Willow has a Fire Meter (It represents Willow's temperature, which goes down and up based on Willow's sanity, external temperature and other heat/cold controlling elements).

If there was a special meter, then it would've been okayish. This mechanic can get scrapped, for all I care.

[Scoobie101]

17 hours ago, Arlesienne said:

Willow actually sounds very logical. I have a hard time picturing her while believing in a little pixie living in the lighter.

Spoiler

(Sorry couldn't resist)

Aaaaanyway, in terms of Willow rebuffing and stuff, I don't really think she has much of an issue which feels... I dunno, dirty? To say. She's just so different I kinda just stopped mentally comparing her to normal DS Willow and suddenly she doesn't feel as garbage anymore. I mean, obviously she's nothing like her single player counterpart, but let's be honest, fans constantly pulling Klei in a million different directions on how to fix one thing probably makes it more confusing as to what the community wants rather than Klei seeing a definite solution on how to make Willow feel more... Willow.

[PanAzej]

52 minutes ago, Scoobie101 said:

  Hide contents

(Sorry couldn't resist)

Aaaaanyway, in terms of Willow rebuffing and stuff, I don't really think she has much of an issue which feels... I dunno, dirty? To say. She's just so different I kinda just stopped mentally comparing her to normal DS Willow and suddenly she doesn't feel as garbage anymore. I mean, obviously she's nothing like her single player counterpart, but let's be honest, fans constantly pulling Klei in a million different directions on how to fix one thing probably makes it more confusing as to what the community wants rather than Klei seeing a definite solution on how to make Willow feel more... Willow.

The problem is not Willow being 'not the same as singleplayer Willow' but rather 'Willow is so much worse than others'.

Just look:

- Wolfgang - There's no other way to increase your max health/increase damage multiplier;

- Wickerbottom - Nobody else can spawn tentacles/grow crops or resources faster;

- Wendy - There's no other area-attacking creature that player can control than Abigail;

- Webber - Nobody else can befriend spiders...

See a pattern here? What can Willow do that nobody else can do?

- Willow - a torch that lasts 2x longer and ability to cook on a go.

Well, that's a pretty narrow and meaningless niche if I ever saw one. Considering that others can craft a torch right away, 10 seconds after starting a game. So that leaves her with the cooking on a go.

Oh, and sanity recovery from fires. You have to stand in one place and be useless in a SURVIVAL GAME to get this effect to work. Also there's like 10 other ways to recover it faster and better.

And her bad side? You can freeze to death if your sanity is low. Cooking food anytime for a price of freezing to death in bad situations and harder time farming Nightmare Fuel.

No, just no.

[CaptainChaotica]

Count me in on the freezing to death being obnoxious; some of you may recall my epic Tale of Woe about how I froze to insanity-death while getting hit by a Treeguard AND a Crawling Horror I couldn't dodge on a winter night, as Together Willow.  It ties into her fire thing in a purely negative way; it's...just bad, without being interesting.  Oh, sure, it can help with summer. But I don't really want to dodge shadow creatures for an entire season just to keep cool.

Getting sanity from fires never bothered me; at least I'm doing SOMEthing positive while stuck at the fire all night long.  I could go out and explore and stuff at night, but I tend to not do that very often.  (Mainly because I don't want to waste too much grass & twigs for torches...when I could do the same thing without one by just _waiting_ a bit.)

I do like the idea of the lighter only being infinite for Willow; this not only cuts down on the clutter but goes along with my personal lore headcanon for her!  (That she's actually a wild-talent pyroKINETIC...but doesn't realise it because every time it goes off, she's bonkers and doesn't remember what happened properly.)  In this case, it ties in thusly:  The lighter ISN'T infinite.  It never was.  It actually ran out years ago and she doesn't know.  _She's been powering it with her mind_, unconsciously.  So, a lighter that's magical for her but is perfectly ordinary when someone else uses it...I dig it.  In fact, it's actually one of the changes I thought of myself, a while ago.

And please, for the love of whatever you hold sacred, GIVE HER THE FIRE IMMUNITY BACK!  I've said it before and I'll say it again: Willow just ain't Willow unless she can stand right in the middle of a forest fire and laugh.

Oh, and incidentally, the one and only attemped-griefer (with fire, no less) I've met so far?  Was playing Wilson.

...Notorious

[Frosty_Mentos]

8 hours ago, Bebbit said:

Rude. I thought you liked Willow!

I do, I think I just read your comment wrong Facepalm

[Frosty_Mentos]

15 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

In this case, it ties in thusly:  The lighter ISN'T infinite.  It never was.  It actually ran out years ago and she doesn't know.  _She's been powering it with her mind_, unconsciously.  So, a lighter that's magical for her but is perfectly ordinary when someone else uses it...I dig it.  In fact, it's actually one of the changes I thought of myself, a while ago.

You blew my mind

[CaptainChaotica]

(laughs)  WHOO!  I'm so glad somebody out there not only reads my random ramblings, but actually likes them.  Yeah, that's been my theory about Willow for a long time.  In fact, at first I used to think Don't Starve Together DID work like that--kinda like how Lucy is special only for Woodie--until I found out the lighter was just plain finite now.

In my own game, I've gotten around the nerf by just going ahead and using the Willow the Firestarter mod, which...puts her back to EXACTLY her old singleplayer self, including insanity-fires.  (well, + Bernie, whom I keep forgetting to use.)  A more-tweaked-for-multiplayer version would be awesome, but not AS tweaked as it is now.

...Notorious

[PanAzej]

19 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

(laughs)  WHOO!  I'm so glad somebody out there not only reads my random ramblings, but actually likes them.  Yeah, that's been my theory about Willow for a long time.  In fact, at first I used to think Don't Starve Together DID work like that--kinda like how Lucy is special only for Woodie--until I found out the lighter was just plain finite now.

In my own game, I've gotten around the nerf by just going ahead and using the Willow the Firestarter mod, which...puts her back to EXACTLY her old singleplayer self, including insanity-fires.  (well, + Bernie, whom I keep forgetting to use.)  A more-tweaked-for-multiplayer version would be awesome, but not AS tweaked as it is now.

...Notorious

Dunno, I'd like to see something new for her. Fire immunity is fine and all, just not that team-oriented. I can't really see much point of fire not hurting her than just to make her sanity gain perk be easier to achieve and Willow be better in winter (faster warming up, since you can stand in a burning tree).

It doesn't really grant any new benefit (Woodie can farm wood, Wicker can grow everything, Wilson is Wilson but even he has a rare resource that's useful - beard, Wendy/Webber easy spider farm, Wolfgang can protect little men, Wigfrid is the armoury supplier, and so on).

All other characters can help their teammates out. Willow's Lighter comes to mind, but you can barely see the tip of your nose with its range, so it's basically an expensive torch at the start. And later on you have a lantern. What's the point?

[rezecib]

Well, the idea of the temperature thing was that it would be double-edged-- she could use it to mitigate summer temperatures (giving her heat resistance, which is something people have asked for often), but also potentially hurting her by freezing in cold temperatures.

I initially liked the system, but having played with it, the benefits are too small and the penalties too harsh. I think it could be revised to instead provide scaling summer insulation with insanity, as being insane is enough of a penalty on its own.

I also think that people greatly underestimate her current level of fire resistance. She doesn't take fire damage for the first 3 seconds. So once the fire shows up on the screen, you still have 3 full seconds of immunity. That's enough to dart in and grab something in the middle of a fire.

The main reason fire immunity was decent in the first place was for fire traps, but those are not possible in DST. Otherwise full immunity is really not that useful, and really gives in to the role-playing which was the source of the griefing problem with Willow in the first place. It wasn't that Willow started with a lighter (getting a torch is pretty easy), it was that if you wanted to run around and burn things, you'd pick the pyromaniac.

[AnonymousKoala]

1 hour ago, PanAzej said:

The problem is not Willow being 'not the same as singleplayer Willow' but rather 'Willow is so much worse than others'.

Just look:

- Wolfgang - There's no other way to increase your max health/increase damage multiplier;

- Wickerbottom - Nobody else can spawn tentacles/grow crops or resources faster;

- Wendy - There's no other area-attacking creature that player can control than Abigail;

- Webber - Nobody else can befriend spiders...

See a pattern here? What can Willow do that nobody else can do?

- Willow - a torch that lasts 2x longer and ability to cook on a go.

Well, that's a pretty narrow and meaningless niche if I ever saw one. Considering that others can craft a torch right away, 10 seconds after starting a game. So that leaves her with the cooking on a go.

Oh, and sanity recovery from fires. You have to stand in one place and be useless in a SURVIVAL GAME to get this effect to work. Also there's like 10 other ways to recover it faster and better.

And her bad side? You can freeze to death if your sanity is low. Cooking food anytime for a price of freezing to death in bad situations and harder time farming Nightmare Fuel.

No, just no.

WX also increases max hp though(about wolfgang)

[GiddyGuy]

16 minutes ago, AnonymousKoala said:

WX also increases max hp though(about wolfgang)

And can become a fast explorer.

[PanAzej]

13 minutes ago, AnonymousKoala said:

WX also increases max hp though(about wolfgang)

Yeah, but Wolfgang is more about that sweet damage more than being OP stat-wise all around (I mean, he still kinda is, but they both have different mechanics - Wolfgang's HP is dynamic, while WX's HP changes incrementally with upgrades).

23 minutes ago, rezecib said:

I also think that people greatly underestimate her current level of fire resistance. She doesn't take fire damage for the first 3 seconds. So once the fire shows up on the screen, you still have 3 full seconds of immunity. That's enough to dart in and grab something in the middle of a fire.

The graphic indicator should be changed then. It's confusing to anybody that doesn't know about it. Flames should start to pop up incrementally, and sound should also indicate that you resist the fire during those 3 seconds.

25 minutes ago, rezecib said:

It wasn't that Willow started with a lighter (getting a torch is pretty easy), it was that if you wanted to run around and burn things, you'd pick the pyromaniac.

I've seen all characters grief with torches/hammers. Willow just has that stigma, griefers probably chose her, because "it's funny, cuz she's a firestarter".

[Joachim]

14 hours ago, PanAzej said:

They are pretty bad, I think. Also, introducing all the changes isn't that hard and time-consuming as you think. You're exaggerating. Seriously, have you tried modding? If you know what you're doing then things don't take forever. And even if something needs to be adjusted, it can be patched right away.

Yes, I am into modding. But like I said earlier, actual development is nothing like modding. You can't just do whatever you want. You need to ensure quality, stability and balance. Not to mention the fact that you need to get permission from your team to implement the changes, which requires discussions and this can touch upon a lot of different issues that are not always easily resolvable. Releasing a mod requires neither of those things. I am not exaggerating here.

I have been working part-time as a programmer for quite some time. I know how painful it can be to push for a change.

[PanAzej]

19 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Yes, I am into modding. But like I said earlier, actual development is nothing like modding. You can't just do whatever you want. You need to ensure quality, stability and balance. Not to mention the fact that you need to get permission from your team to implement the changes, which requires discussions and this can touch upon a lot of different issues that are not always easily resolvable. Releasing a mod requires neither of those things. I am not exaggerating here.

I have been working part-time as a programmer for quite some time. I know how painful it can be to push for a change.

You act as if it was near impossible to do any changes, but it's not.

Coding new things is not that hard (I mostly mean character changes, like some numbers, few new mechanics and whatnot). Assets are already there.

Of course, you gotta discuss what changes need to be made. That's why we are brainstorming some iterations and complain.

Klei developers read these forums, so why not question some things to make the game better? We ***** about these things because we care and love the game, we want it to offer the best experience possible.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

10 hours ago, PanAzej said:

Why would you want to do this? You want it to become an automatic Nightmare Fuel farm? And at the same time make insanity not a problem at all? Nah.

I'd rather make something special for her lighter. Maybe let others cook using it, but cooking on it uses up more durability and deals some low damage (1-3 dmg per cooking). This was a thing in the code actually, but it's unused.

Give the Lighter some utility? Maybe it could be refueled with fire. You'd get some lighter fuel back from extinguishing burning structures.

Or add cold-fire switch to it. Cold fire could be used to extinguish regular fires. Maybe also let items get set on cold fire? Could be extinguished by regular fire, so anybody can do it.

 

Also, to make it so there's less griefing potential by burning stuff, when a player sets something on fire, it starts smoldering first. So there's a short amount of time to prevent burning your base down by some random guy.

If there was a special meter, then it would've been okayish. This mechanic can get scrapped, for all I care.

1) If it (the bear) is only active whilst Willow is insane and follows Willow, then it would be less of a bother for Willow players, but not something that is completely eradicating the challenge of insanity as for one, Bernie needs repairing via sewing kit every now and then if you wanna keep that up (which costs a pletra of silk, some hounds teeth and a log for just 5 uses) and for two, if Willow freezes at zero sanity or has low temperature when insane, then especially in Winter, this would prove as a challenge. And I think that the freezing effect, if only making Willow go completely freezing normally at 0 sanity, that Bernie would be great for this. We have other characters farming plenty of other things, which is how they bring things to the table for a group. For Willow, this could be Nighmare Fuel thanks to Bernie.

2) Tbh, having an "on the go" cooking mechanic is useless af. Why? It's not "on the go"; you still have to play a stopping animation for cooking things. The only thing that you're not doing that consumes time is another extra animation which actually would craft a campfire, so really it's useless, unless you can cook whilst running, though lets be honest, devs won't do that neither in terms of animation nor in terms of mechanics. Though, perhaps it could be there anyway...? Wait, lose hp from cooking on the lighter?! That would make it the worst mechanic ever! If none resorts to campfires already, they sure would then if they have to pay with health just to cook something. I think that, based on what @CaptainChaotica said, that Willow can cook and use lighter perhaps without it losing durability, whilst for other characters it would lose durability for both events.

3) Emm... Perhaps that could be useful, though that would mean you'd have to burn things in order to refuel it, turning EVERYBODY who uses a lighter into a Pyromaniac

4) I don't think that would really suit Willow. Considering also that she freezes when insane, I don't think she particularly likes cold or whatever. As for lighting things on cold fire... Lets better leave it to just endothermic campfires and firepits so as not to make it more work distinguishing between normal and endothermic fires and when what would light on which fire and omg, just too much to consider with this implementation...

5) I thought about this too, though getting charcoal might take a bit more time. But generally, why not? So long as the smouldering actually heats you up a bit, since in winter you need to burn things out there in the world to keep warm sometimes.

6) I believe it can work well as a challenge for Willow if she gets great perks (e.g Bernie damaging and killing nightmares, Willow having fire immunity, having an infinite light source when used by her), solong as it's done well. So far, I don't think it is, so just fully freezing when at 0 sanity would be better, just so you can stay insane as her for some time if you want to farm nightmare fuel.