Why i think Wanda should be slower when old

[00petar00]

15 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

For starters, ADM has at least 6000 hours in this game, and they're quite intimate with most things the game has to offer.

 

I know that he has a lot of hours but my whole point is that you shouldn't discuss character nerfs/buffs if you don't play it long enough to even know the ability/watch names.

15 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Secondly, balance is important. It's not as important as for many other games, sure, but I can clearly see issues with certain characters dominating the spotlight because of how easy and ridiculous they can be.

Balance isn't as important as fun you get from playing the game, movement speed nerfs would make the game much less fun because it is so important. I would quit playing Wanda and main Maxwell.

15 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Weak characters get left in the dust, lose fans, and then nobody even bothers to care about them anymore. Wilson fans have had a bit of an outcry due to how weak he is, and he's only got that popularity due to who he is. How many people are fighting for Walter, who doesn't even have that?

Wilson has always been more of a vanilla character and just because weak characters are left in the dust it doesn't make a good argument to nerf good characters to be as bad as they are.

15 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I don't care (within the confines of this post) that a certain character can do whatever thing better than Wanda technically, or how a nerf would ruin your experience with her. Wanda is far, far beyond what characters could originally do. She represents (to me at least), the most obnoxious powercreep jump I have seen in Don't Starve, and I blame her for Maxwell needing an equally ridiculous buff to compete.

I can enjoy powerful characters and you can enjoy a weak character, how is this such a big problem in a sandbox game? You don't have to play either of the two characters you named.

15 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I'm also not saying that I particularly agree with these specific proposed nerfs, but that nerfs are in short supply, and I believe players should consider them for the good of the weaker characters instead of instinctively recoiling.

Because players don't like nerfs and no matter how many times you see it on the forum threads made by specific survival oriented players, majority doesn't like character downsides.

[chirsg]

5 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Remove the entire teleport network and she would be mostly as useful as she is now.

lmao. her teleport network is the best part of her kit bar none. You wouldn't even need to fight if you set it up just right. And multiple winters? You get a respectable network from having a handful of clocks. Travelling between shards is really damn good.

Also she isn't the worst combat character at all after rifts lol.

3 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Teleporting has nothing to do with character speed and like I said previously this is the most important stat.

 

Yes it does lol. Going from spawn to center of the labyrinth is the character's speed being off the charts. I'd love it if wanda were removed from the game and her fast travel network were distributed between every cast member. I don't think she deserves to lose base speed in her geriatric form, but I'd love to see it just for a laugh and spite.

Again, she loses even 10% base walking speed, she still remains the fastest character in the game. Again, go to caves, go to pearl, turn into a monkey and back, and if you're feeling really cheeky, set up moonstorms, all under 8 minutes. You can't tell me that isn't the definition of speed.
She's dst's yellow flash

To reiterate, she's not going to lose speed, especially given the passion a lot of you have displayed. 

But don't any of you dare try to even make wanda out to be a poor baby who needs to be protected at all costs. She is perhaps the most optimal character you can choose after day 200 and you're playing with sticks and stones if you don't. 

[00petar00]

14 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Yes it does lol. Going from spawn to center of the labyrinth is the character's speed being off the charts. I'd love it if wanda were removed from the game and her fast travel network were distributed between every cast member. I don't think she deserves to lose base speed in her geriatric form, but I'd love to see it just for a laugh and spite.

Again, she loses even 10% base walking speed, she still remains the fastest character in the game. Again, go to caves, go to pearl, turn into a monkey and back, and if you're feeling really cheeky, set up moonstorms, all under 8 minutes. You can't tell me that isn't the definition of speed.
She's dst's yellow flash

Speed and teleportation are two completely different things, you can't really compare the two. I think that you are confused because the time to travel somewhere and teleporting can be compared.

I'd love that too and have made suggestions in the past about allowing lazy deserter to be used solo, it can work so that when you right click it opens map and shows you all the lazy deserters and you could choose which one you want to teleport to. They need to cost much more to build but it would be amazing addition as I don't think teleporting should be locked behind one character either but the same argument can be made about Maxwell's workers, Wicker's books, Winona's catapults, Wormwood plant crafts and other character abilities that make such a difference to all characters.

Speed matters for most of the playtime and you aren't going to be teleporting 24/7, while you can do that and I do teleport at least once a day that takes 1 second and the rest is spent on tasks that require walking at least short distances.

16 minutes ago, chirsg said:

To reiterate, she's not going to lose speed, especially given the passion a lot of you have displayed. 

But don't any of you dare try to even make wanda out to be a poor baby who needs to be protected at all costs. She is perhaps the most optimal character you can choose after day 200 and you're playing with sticks and stones if you don't. 

It is a sandbox game and I can play however I want, you can be jealous all day that Wanda can teleport and I can be jealous of the ability your main character has (I don't know which one it is), if it is one of the stronger ones you are not really in position to complain about Wanda. Quite a few characters are much closer in power now compared to the past and most will be even closer after skill trees are completed.

[chirsg]

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

you are not really in position to complain about Wanda

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, a huge flaw in my personality won't allow me to let you have the last word. I didn't complain about Wanda. I've stated that Wanda is the best character in the game. I didn't even say she particularly deserves to receive speed penalty.

I interpret teleportation as a variation of speed. When fast travel is referred to in any game independent of this entire franchise, in essence, it is teleportation. Warping and speed are synonymous to me, and with my stated definition, synonymous to at least millions of others.

 

With the existence of Wanda, solo quick travel beyond bootlegs aren't going to happen. There's absolutely no way. As much as I abhor Wanda and wish she had never even become an idea in someone's head, I have to concede that solo quick travel available to every character makes her all but useless. Her existence hurts my desires, yet without any modicum of bias, I have to state that it's impossible for other characters to get a portion more of her power and have her remain as viable a choice as she is now.

 

Also, she hasn't received a skill tree yet. Why I didn't want Willow to be reworked so soon was because I have a nagging feeling the top heavy powered characters in the roster will receive insane skill trees. Wanda is included in the top heavy powered characters.

 

Literally don't fret. Your darling will get power worthy of literal demigods.

 

 

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Quite a few characters are much closer in power now compared to the past and most will be even closer after skill trees are completed.

Max, Wickerbottom, Wanda, and Wendy are going to eclipse the characters that preceded them, mark my words. You can hit me with the fattest "I told you so" if this doesn't come to pass. But if my prediction happens to become literal prophecy, I will not boast. Woodie and Willow's skill trees merely made those two competitive against maxwell and wicker. Wendy in some niches. 

 

23 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Speed matters for most of the playtime and you aren't going to be teleporting 24/7, while you can do that and I do teleport at least once a day that takes 1 second and the rest is spent on tasks that require walking at least short distances.

44 minutes ago, chirsg said:

something's not adding up. When I play wanda, I teleport at least 3 times a day.

[00petar00]

48 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It is a sandbox game and I can play however I want, you can be jealous all day that Wanda can teleport and I can be jealous of the ability your main character has (I don't know which one it is), if it is one of the stronger ones you are not really in position to complain about Wanda.

You are not quoting the full context.

24 minutes ago, chirsg said:

I interpret teleportation as a variation of speed. When fast travel is referred to in any game independent of this entire franchise, in essence, it is teleportation. Warping and speed are synonymous to me, and with my stated definition, synonymous to at least millions of others.

What I am saying is that teleportation isn't speed, it allows you to get somewhere faster. Speed is needed for basic control of character, there is a reason there are no characters that are slower. Being 10% slower would make kiting much more difficult, you'd need to learn it for every mob that doesn't die before they manage to attack.

I believe forums would be up in flames if a new downside was added to any character but if a character downside in question is speed and a character is made 10-20% slower it would be 10x worse.

24 minutes ago, chirsg said:

With the existence of Wanda, solo quick travel beyond bootlegs aren't going to happen. There's absolutely no way. As much as I abhor Wanda and wish she had never even become an idea in someone's head, I have to concede that solo quick travel available to every character makes her all but useless. Her existence hurts my desires, yet without any modicum of bias, I have to state that it's impossible for other characters to get a portion more of her power and have her remain as viable a choice as she is now.

What is stopping klei from adding more abilities to her to compensate? Teleporting can still be what she is the best at and for other characters it can be much more difficult to establish a network.

24 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Also, she hasn't received a skill tree yet. Why I didn't want Willow to be reworked so soon was because I have a nagging feeling the top heavy powered characters in the roster will receive insane skill trees. Wanda is included in the top heavy powered characters.

 

Literally don't fret. Your darling will get power worthy of literal demigods.

 

Can't wait to see the forums after her skill tree is released and how many people will say that she is even more OP.

24 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Max, Wickerbottom, Wanda, and Wendy are going to eclipse the characters that preceded them, mark my words. You can hit me with the fattest "I told you so" if this doesn't come to pass. But if my prediction happens to become literal prophecy, I will not boast. Woodie and Willow's skill trees merely made those two competitive against maxwell and wicker. Wendy in some niches. 

That is fine, this is a sandbox game and you just said that skill trees that Willow and Woodie got made them compete with Maxwell and Wicker.

This isn't a MOBA or any type of PVP game where balance is the most important thing and as long as characters can be comparable in power it is good enough.

24 minutes ago, chirsg said:

something's not adding up. When I play wanda, I teleport at least 3 times a day.

I do too but I said at least once and it was used as an example, 3 teleports is still a few seconds. The rest of the time you will be moving and doing stuff and that means speed is used in 99.9% of playtime, you do save a lot of time by teleporting but speed matters for everything you do in the game.

You still haven't said what character is your main.

[W0l0l0]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Balance isn't as important as fun you get from playing the game, movement speed nerfs would make the game much less fun because it is so important. I would quit playing Wanda and main Maxwell.

They're both correlated, because a homogeneous game with poorly balanced characters isn't fun. You're just using "fun" as a synonym for easy here. You can absolutely have slow characters with fun abilities, look at Woodie and his Moose ability, for instance.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Wilson has always been more of a vanilla character and just because weak characters are left in the dust it doesn't make a good argument to nerf good characters to be as bad as they are.

What Wilson has historically been is not a justification for what he should be. However, having to buff every single other character to compensate and change boss mechanics so that a single character that has only existed for a comparatively short time can be accommodated is, in my opinion, a very good argument for their nerf.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I can enjoy powerful characters and you can enjoy a weak character, how is this such a big problem in a sandbox game? You don't have to play either of the two characters you named.

The problem I have lies in the neglect of other characters and consequences such as Maxwell's rework and the overall power creep that has now left us with stuff like skill trees and planar mechanics, forced redundancies that feel like band aid solutions without actually fixing any of the problems.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Because players don't like nerfs and no matter how many times you see it on the forum threads made by specific survival oriented players, majority doesn't like character downsides.

Once again, I highly recommend you consider the idea that all characters should be approximately balanced, and because some players don't like the idea of a nerf while Wilson and Walter rot is laughable. Trivialising the game I believe has led to the aforementioned Planar and skill tree mechanics which have now led to progression and redundancies with items that Klei was previously really good at avoiding.

I'd be down for a Maxwell nerf as well, Wanda being too difficult for you to use is not my problem.

[mima_]

aint yall slightly annoyed when u used to be in super highspeed movement (like using rider beefalo with gossamer) and u feel the change of movement speed when suddenly need to walk without any speed boost?

nerfing char bellow their normal speed is like forcing them to walk on spider web, or how u feel playing in 350 ping which is this annoying. u should feel challenged when u got downside. not feeling annoyed.

cant yall be creative and instead of forcing adding annoying mechanic to "balance it out".
wanda being old cant craft thematically correct since she is working many small part from clock, it would be harder for her in older age to have problem crafting things.
if your reason being old so it need to be slowed down . wicker also not so young, how about maxwell frail body ? do we need craft wheel chair now to accommodate the elderly ? 

 

[00petar00]

3 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

They're both correlated, because a homogeneous game with poorly balanced characters isn't fun. You're just using "fun" as a synonym for easy here. You can absolutely have slow characters with fun abilities, look at Woodie and his Moose ability, for instance.

That is a specific ability that you spend like 1% of the full playtime or less?

3 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

What Wilson has historically been is not a justification for what he should be. However, having to buff every single other character to compensate and change boss mechanics so that a single character that has only existed for a comparatively short time can be accommodated is, in my opinion, a very good argument for their nerf.

Its good for a character like that to exit so that players can play if they want to interact with least possible downsides and upsides and to learn the game without relying on anything.

This is the best character balance we have ever had and it is improving with skill trees. Characters don't need to be buffed so much purely because of Wanda, a lot of characters are good enough but game is powercreeping like every other game and there is nothing special to see here.

DST has always been a more of a difficult survival game and now with all the changes to make it easier over the years it is gaining popularity because a lot of players don't want to play a game that is difficult based on knowledge as it makes the game unfair in a way as you can't predict what will happen. All time peak player count was 11 months ago, so it seems like the direction game is taking is good.

3 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

The problem I have lies in the neglect of other characters and consequences such as Maxwell's rework and the overall power creep that has now left us with stuff like skill trees and planar mechanics, forced redundancies that feel like band aid solutions without actually fixing any of the problems.

Do you really think that because of Wanda, Maxwell was buffed like that and we got rifts and planar mechanics? That is a big stretch.

3 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Once again, I highly recommend you consider the idea that all characters should be approximately balanced, and because some players don't like the idea of a nerf while Wilson and Walter rot is laughable. Trivialising the game I believe has led to the aforementioned Planar and skill tree mechanics which have now led to progression and redundancies with items that Klei was previously really good at avoiding.

I'd be down for a Maxwell nerf as well, Wanda being too difficult for you to use is not my problem.

They should not as players have different playstyles. I want to play a strong character but I have friends that choose a character that is weaker or based on what they find most interesting.

Wilson shouldn't be used in this discussion as a lot of players including me want him to stay "vanilla".

Walter is always going to be a massive headache to balance because DST wasn't made for range weapons, everything can be easily killed. You could bring up Howlitzer here but it is endgame weapon and you need to farm hound's teeth which is much more expensive/time consuming compared to Walter's normal ammo.

Walter's skill tree has not been released yet and even though I don't know how klei will buff him, probably anything besides his slingshot would be fine.

[ADM]

4 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Snip

You're quite right about everything you say regarding the importance of the speed stat, if you already have such ways with the character this idea of a downside is gonna be "preeminent" throughout your game progression.

Regarding me I did play Wanda for a long time over many worlds and set challenges but in the last year I relatively ditched her in favor of characters that had a more spread toolkit rather than just a powerhouse in something specifically. I grew bored but I can expect this to change without a doubt from her skilltree arrival.

It's also fair to say but most characters don't have even such a level of a downside as this post suggest but hear me out, I'm here for it if Klei made ~all characters have bigger downsides. Not gonna happen I can imagine but I would love this, plus viewing the recent pool we've been having this seem like a common wish for more widely spread downsides and present in late too.

If Wanda were to have this -10% movement speed penalty or more, from my experience I can't say it would pain me as much as you but that is our different ways to play her as having the slower crafting speed all the time already totally makes me want out of the old age but I like that it is here and would appreciate something like that for combat applications too because it's hardly any bold with any good armor.

[cybers2001]

4 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Weak characters get left in the dust, lose fans, and then nobody even bothers to care about them anymore. Wilson fans have had a bit of an outcry due to how weak he is, and he's only got that popularity due to who he is. How many people are fighting for Walter, who doesn't even have that?

Are you serious? Wanda is so overstated it’s criminal to even blame her for nobody playing Walter. Checking just now, she isn’t even in the top 7 of most played characters, in fact she’s only a couple spots above Walter.

https://dst.resamvi.io

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

Once again, I highly recommend you consider the idea that all characters should be approximately balanced, and because some players don't like the idea of a nerf while Wilson and Walter rot is laughable. Trivialising the game I believe has led to the aforementioned Planar and skill tree mechanics which have now led to progression and redundancies with items that Klei was previously really good at avoiding.

So how do you quantify balance, then? In a more competitive space like MOBAs, the two biggest numbers are winrate and playrate. In pvp, winrate is easy to quantify. How do you translate that to Don’t Starve, though? Playrate is really the only practical metric we have, but playrate is often loosely correlated to winrate, even in more competitive games.

[00petar00]

25 minutes ago, ADM said:

You're quite right about everything you say regarding the importance of the speed stat, if you already have such ways with the character this idea of a downside is gonna be "preeminent" throughout your game progression.

Regarding me I did play Wanda for a long time over many worlds and set challenges but in the last year I relatively ditched her in favor of characters that had a more spread toolkit rather than just a powerhouse in something specifically. I grew bored but I can expect this to change without a doubt from her skilltree arrival.

She has quite a few abilities and her toolkit is more useful in groups, what might make her boring to some people is that she can only heal from her ageless watches and the best food source is meaty stew and taffy but I like the simplicity of managing health, hunger and sanity when playing her.

28 minutes ago, ADM said:

It's also fair to say but most characters don't have even such a level of a downside as this post suggest but hear me out, I'm here for it if Klei made ~all characters have bigger downsides. Not gonna happen I can imagine but I would love this, plus viewing the recent pool we've been having this seem like a common wish for more widely spread downsides and present in late too.

That is a poll made on forums where most active players are recurring regulars that have been here for years and you won't find almost any one of them has under 1000 hours played and easily a lot more. It doesn't show the full picture.

Downsides are very much a hit or miss and so far I like Wormwood's downside the most because it matters a lot until you start farming bee queen or have catapults and you can completely negate it. I don't like permanent downsides and a lot of players don't want impactful downsides so there are characters for many different types of players to choose from.

35 minutes ago, ADM said:

If Wanda were to have this -10% movement speed penalty or more, from my experience I can't say it would pain me as much as you but that is our different ways to play her as having the slower crafting speed all the time already totally makes me want out of the old age but I like that it is here and would appreciate something like that for combat applications too because it's hardly any bold with any good armor.

The point of playing Wanda is that you are picking a strong character because you want to play a strong character not a one with an even bigger downside and her current downside is annoying enough to deal with because she is always aging so that even when you are not fighting you have to keep using ageless clock. Wanda has only 35 HP in old age so that means you need to invest into better armor and her healing is also limited. Watches take a lot of inventory space.

This is already too much and I am waiting for skill tree and hoping it will take care of the permanent aging, this might not seem like a big deal but playing thousands of days as Wanda and you'll find it the most annoying downside even though it isn't as impactful as 35 health old age.

Another reason players choose to play Wanda is because teleport cuts down on their travel time immensely, so that means they like to not waste time and having slower speed means that they will waste more time walking compared to other characters.

 

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

For starters, ADM has at least 6000 hours in this game, and they're quite intimate with most things the game has to offer.

And they can still be wrong.  In this case - its not really them, but the thread that is wrong.

Hitting move speed as a nerf is a bad thing for a few reasons but mostly b/c beefalo exist.

But lets say we don't tame a beef - when was the last time you played Winona?  Like, full time not just to build catapults?

Winona's thing is slow crafting when they are low hunger, and this is a massive pain early game being slowed down constantly.

Just look at the replies like from @chirsg who actually seems to believe having a teleport network, which literally requires you farmed many tusks over multiple winters without sharing, somehow makes her the fastest character in the game and that she'd be top tier with this sans her entire combat kit - Ridiculous.  Absolutely off the rails.

@chirsg !  Go make a mod version of Wanda with only the teleports and play it, tell me then if you still believe this lol.

No, teleporting is not that great - and no, Wanda is not that great in planar world.  I'm sure she will be when she gets her kit again, but she is not an outlier in power at the moment.  The reality is plainly stated by ADM themselves even - their kit is extremely focused on 1 thing, which imo is natural for a combat character pre-skill trees.  With Wolfgang, Wicker, and Maxwell reworks and skill trees added in her kit is actually getting pretty lame.

5 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Weak characters get left in the dust, lose fans, and then nobody even bothers to care about them anymore. Wilson fans have had a bit of an outcry due to how weak he is, and he's only got that popularity due to who he is. How many people are fighting for Walter, who doesn't even have that?

Plenty of Wilson fans talk about what they want for Wilson, plenty of Walter fans talk about what they want for Walter.  Go search these threads and you'll see a LOT of support for both of these characters - You'll definitely see me supporting Walter getting improvements.  Wilson is a bit of a special case though.  They are designed to be vanilla.  Unless Klei changes their mind about how they want Wilson to be, Wilson fans better get used to it lol.

[W0l0l0]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Its good for a character like that to exit so that players can play if they want to interact with least possible downsides and upsides and to learn the game without relying on anything.

I hear this a lot, but only from people who aren't new players. I believe they're just handicapping themselves by not playing one of those "stronger" characters that you mentioned. Downsides for a large amount of characters are completely meaningless, even for new players.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

That is a specific ability that you spend like 1% of the full playtime or less?

Just an example, my point being that you can work around it and actually try a challenge. Especially if the character is already powerful, and has ways to mitigate it, which the suggested change in the post provides.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

This is the best character balance we have ever had and it is improving with skill trees. Characters don't need to be buffed so much because of purely because of Wanda, a lot of characters are good enough but game is powercreeping like every other game and there is nothing special to see here.

"Best character balance", you mean the game is...easy? You think Winona is as balanced as Maxwell? It doesn't matter, this statement is subjective and meaningless.

Having every game follow the same bland formula is not necessary good thing, and the people who like Don't Starve, like it for what it is, not because they want it to follow a generic trend that turns it into a incoherent mess of other unoriginal ideas. I play Don't Starve because its different from Terraria, because I like the lack of power creep. If I wanted it to do skill trees and other random stuff I wouldn't be here.

In addition, Don't Starve wasn't originally designed for power creep and such progression, so now we need other layers slapped on top that complicates, such as Planar damage.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Do you really think that because of Wanda, Maxwell was buffed like that and we got rifts and planar mechanics? That is a big stretch.

I think Maxwell was buffed to such an extent because of Wanda. It would have been otherwise silly to have the "King of the Shadows" weaker than Wanda. Each powerful refresh or new character pushes the power creep further, and Klei keeps going. Sure the planar stuff can be a stretch, but I'm still blaming them for it.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

They should not as players have different playstyles. I want to play a strong character but I have friends that choose a character that is weaker or based on what they find most interesting.

Theres already a challenge character, we don't need several more layers of awful. And outside of that, people don't play a character because they're weak. Like you said: what they find most interesting. And if the interesting playstyle is tied to a lousy weak character, it pushes them away. The only thing saving the character is that the playstyle is fun enough despite the hindrance. And for people who just want the easiest way out? They won't experience the other characters that the game has to offer. They'll just stick to Wendy. She sure isn't popular because of her personality.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Walter is always going to be a massive headache to balance because DST wasn't made for range weapons, everything can be easily killed. You could bring up Howlitzer here but it is endgame weapon and you need to farm hound's teeth which is much more expensive/time consuming compared to Walter's normal ammo.

Yeah I'm totally with you here. The thing I'm worried about, and the reason I brought up Walter, is that because they're unpopular, they don't get as much feedback, and less criticism. So it's seen less as a problem, doesn't get addressed, and then gets even worse. They have a disproportionately small voice.

4 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Plenty of Wilson fans talk about what they want for Wilson, plenty of Walter fans talk about what they want for Walter.  Go search these threads and you'll see a LOT of support for both of these characters - You'll definitely see me supporting Walter getting improvements.  Wilson is a bit of a special case though.  They are designed to be vanilla.  Unless Klei changes their mind about how they want Wilson to be, Wilson fans better get used to it lol

Not really, I don't see all that many threads except the one about Woby. It's even worse for Winona. Just on the front page theres two threads for Maxwell. Like I say, I don't want the unpopular characters to be drowned out with their disproportionately small voices.

Every character was originally a Wilson reskin so what they were originally "designed for" is irrelevant. I personally see Wilson as a trap for new players and I'd like to hear from some actual new players on how good of a learning tool he is.

12 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

And they can still be wrong.  In this case - its not really them, but the thread that is wrong.

Well this is your take on a completely subjective and complex issue so I'm dismissing it as nonsense.

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

Are you serious? Wanda is so overstated it’s criminal to even blame her for nobody playing Walter. Checking just now, she isn’t even in the top 7 of most played characters, in fact she’s only a couple spots above Walter.

Like I say earlier, I blame her for the next stages of the power creep that Maxwell followed. 

In addition, you have to unlock her so she'll likely be lower than average.

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

So how do you quantify balance, then? In a more competitive space like MOBAs, the two biggest numbers are winrate and playrate. In pvp, winrate is easy to quantify. How do you translate that to Don’t Starve, though? Playrate is really the only practical metric we have, but playrate is often loosely correlated to winrate, even in more competitive games.

That is for Klei to dictate. And the person I addressed this to acknowledges themselves that some characters are obviously more powerful than others, so Klei is more than capable of adjusting.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I want to play a strong character but I have friends that choose a character that is weaker

 

[00petar00]

45 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

"Best character balance", you mean the game is...easy? You think Winona is as balanced as Maxwell? It doesn't matter, this statement is subjective and meaningless.

It is quite reasonable assumption and it has nothing to do with game's difficulty. We have never had characters be as balanced as they currently are and it is only getting better with skill trees. For example, Wolfgang got the short end of the stick (His skill tree is really boring though) while other characters that needed more buffs were the focus.

47 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Having every game follow the same bland formula is not necessary good thing, and the people who like Don't Starve, like it for what it is, not because they want it to follow a generic trend that turns it into a incoherent mess of other unoriginal ideas. I play Don't Starve because its different from Terraria, because I like the lack of power creep. If I wanted it to do skill trees and other random stuff I wouldn't be here.

Formula exists for a reason and straying away from it is a risk that you don't have to take but klei does, they are going to lose money if game/skins don't sell well while it is easy for you to speak about it on the forums.

48 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

In addition, Don't Starve wasn't originally designed for power creep and such progression, so now we need other layers slapped on top that complicates, such as Planar damage.

Because game evolves over time and DST has so much more content compared to DS. I don't really like planar system but I don't think that it is all that bad. A lot of players complain on the forums because veterans can get "endgame gear" in the first season, clearing ruins and killing bosses.

50 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I think Maxwell was buffed to such an extent because of Wanda. It would have been otherwise silly to have the "King of the Shadows" weaker than Wanda. Each powerful refresh or new character pushes the power creep further, and Klei keeps going. Sure the planar stuff can be a stretch, but I'm still blaming them for it.

That is your assumption and we don't have any evidence of klei stating anything like that. Lore doesn't matter as much as you think it does so being the "king of the shadows" or whatever only matters to select number of people and it isn't a reason to have Maxwell be as strong as he is and I don't really care much that he is, the bigger problem to me is that he can use Wicker's books with no penalty after bone helm, If he had his own abilities that made him this strong I would care even less.

52 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Theres already a challenge character, we don't need several more layers of awful. And outside of that, people don't play a character because they're weak. Like you said: what they find most interesting. And if the interesting playstyle is tied to a lousy weak character, it pushes them away. The only thing saving the character is that the playstyle is fun enough despite the hindrance. And for people who just want the easiest way out? They won't experience the other characters that the game has to offer. They'll just stick to Wendy. She sure isn't popular because of her personality.

There are no characters that are "lousy" except maybe Warly because of his downside that is very annoying to deal with but some people find it surprisingly fun. There are only characters stronger than Wilson and characters stronger than these characters with the only exception being Wes.

Why are you suggesting for character nerfs in that case? If that is what you think, you'd want all characters to be as powerful as Wanda and Maxwell or you are just jealous of players that main these characters and want them nerfed so that your main be just as strong.

Like @Yuukosaid Wanda isn't even that strong post rift, its so weird to pick her out but there is so little discussion about other characters that are as or nearly as powerful.

56 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Yeah I'm totally with you here. The thing I'm worried about, and the reason I brought up Walter, is that because they're unpopular, they don't get as much feedback, and less criticism. So it's seen less as a problem, doesn't get addressed, and then gets even worse. They have a disproportionately small voice.

Why is that such an issue? If Walter players no matter how few of them there are they can suggest changes. If there are almost no players that main him why would the character receive as much of an effort from developers? Its not like I am saying he shouldn't be buffed but there can be simple buffs like Wolfgang's skill tree that give him a massive power buff but are simpler.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

Not really, I don't see all that many threads except the one about Woby. It's even worse for Winona. Just on the front page theres two threads for Maxwell. Like I say, I don't want the unpopular characters to be drowned out with their disproportionately small voices.

Every character was originally a Wilson reskin so what they were originally "designed for" is irrelevant. I personally see Wilson as a trap for new players and I'd like to hear from some actual new players on how good of a learning tool he is.

So you also see that popular characters are usually stronger ones, that proves my point that not many players want to play characters with a downside like Walter without power to back it up. 

Maxwell and Wanda (or any other character you find powerful) won't receive any nerfs and will only get stronger with skill trees. They may not get skill trees like Woodie but they will get buffs as that is the point of skill trees.

We have not seen character nerfs apart from Wolfgang and a lot of players complained and they have a point, why does their character need to get nerfed because other character mains are jealous? It goes back to DST being a sandbox game and you can literally do everything you want even on multiplayer servers and not base with other players.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

That is for Klei to dictate. And the person I addressed this to acknowledges themselves that some characters are obviously more powerful than others, so Klei is more than capable of adjusting.

I don't want klei to waste time balancing characters as I am not playing MOBA or PVP. DST doesn't need to have even nearly as close to balance as these games do and currently the character balance is really good, like you have mentioned characters that got skill trees can compete and we don't need characters to be any closer in balance.

There are players that don't want their characters to be buffed to match up with the stronger characters but skill trees will make them compete even if they will never be at the same level.

 

[mima_]

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

That is for Klei to dictate. And the person I addressed this to acknowledges themselves that some characters are obviously more powerful than others, so Klei is more than capable of adjusting.

i see nothing wrong in that. i remember people took pride using weak char as challenge, beating the game with wes with no death no hit etc..
why now suddenly we in dire need of balance of power? so onechar wont be overly powerful than other char?

when in begining there no such thing, this aint competitive play, if we all being competitive why not all people in pub server using that one char that u said overpowered?

why not all people use wanda ? wolfgang maybe?
why i keep seeing wendy wormwood or wigfrid flooding the pub server? so this three is the OP one or what ?
klei no need to adjust so all char is in a standardized power. it just need balance in multiplayer aspect, their symbiotic combo with other char. make the game fun in multiplayer... 
can have fun even in solo play ..  
 

[Mysterious box]

18 hours ago, comonavi said:

Exactly, old age just means she's low health. I'll admit I rarely play her but it's a simple risk for reward scenario, is that so bad? Another downside might make it more interesting but you must realize not everyone plays with one finger on the rollback button... and a speed nerf would be the most boring drawback possible.

She also deals less damage with non magic based items.

Crafts slower increasing the odds of getting hit if trying to do so mid combat.

Works slower at things like hammering.

Honesty with her crafting penalty a speed nerf would be overkill but I feel like people haven't played Wanda enough to notice she has these downsides while old.

[goatt]

If you wanna talk about real life, Walking Cane on young people make them walk slower rather than 20% faster.

Make Walking cane more realistic.

[Mysterious box]

16 hours ago, Yuuko said:

In a single day she can go to pearl's island, reset ruins, go to monkey island, and back to base!  She just needs to farm multiple winters AND have gone to all of these places manually first...  Also by this time planar is unlocked and until she gets a kit she is basically the worst combat character in the game.

Wanda is a combat centric character, without that you wouldn't play her.  It is the most interesting part of her kit.  Remove the entire teleport network and she would be mostly as useful as she is now.  Remove her combat and she would be auto-pass.

I gotta disagree here you remove here you completely underestimate the value of her teleportation network in long term worlds if you remove it what reason is there to play her over say Wolfgang? If she's just a character that hits hard Wolfgang can do that while offering other things teleportation is her other things and it's really darn useful. 

[_zwb]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

more realistic.

Ah yes, realism, the thing Don't Starve franchise is known for

[Mysterious box]

Honestly it's really weird to me Wanda keeps getting attention for nerf discussions while Maxwell exists a far more unbalanced character guess it's that og main antagonist flair keeping him safe.

That being said I do agree balance is important to make each character feel worth it in their own rights. I also believe a few characters could do with some nerfs or changes to how they work just to make flow better or feel more rewarding because just as being op can be fun restrictions can also be just as fun and encourage teamwork.

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Not really, I don't see all that many threads except the one about Woby. It's even worse for Winona. Just on the front page theres two threads for Maxwell. Like I say, I don't want the unpopular characters to be drowned out with their disproportionately small voices.

Every character was originally a Wilson reskin so what they were originally "designed for" is irrelevant. I personally see Wilson as a trap for new players and I'd like to hear from some actual new players on how good of a learning tool he is.

There have been plenty of threads on Walter.  Just because you don't see them every day doesn't mean they don't happen.  I see him mentioned all the time, requests for different improvements, changes to his kit, buffs, etc.  There are a lot of people who either do, or want to enjoy playing Walter and share their thoughts on how to improve him here.  Not my fault he isn't the most popular character like Maxwell to be buzzed about every day - but my point stands - people do talk about him, and want good things for him, including myself.

]As for Wilson - it is 100% relevant b/c Klei is the one who holds that opinion, and continues to design around it.  I'm not a voice holding him back, so don't complain to me about it.

Bottom line though - if the reason you want Wanda nerfed is because Walter isn't good enough, or Wilson is too "Wilson-ey" then ... gl with that lol.  Wanda is unlikely to change, and especially unlikely to get nerfs.  She is pretty far from the strongest character in the game having a very basic and streamlined kit that does 2 things very well, but one of them only for the middle part of the game, and the other only late.  Compared to Wolfgang, Maxwell, and others she is falling behind.  You'd do better to base your balance complaints more broadly - such as "we need more impactful downsides in general" and "combat characters are gaining too much power" so that you can properly target what you *really* want rather than spinning wheels on what is essentially a strawman.

18 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I gotta disagree here you remove here you completely underestimate the value of her teleportation network in long term worlds if you remove it what reason is there to play her over say Wolfgang? If she's just a character that hits hard Wolfgang can do that while offering other things teleportation is her other things and it's really darn useful. 

The proposition was to split her kit.  They claimed you could delete her combat kit entirely and based SOLELY on teleporting she would be OP.

Do you agree that deleting everything but backtrek watches that she would be strong?

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Yuuko said:

The proposition was to split her kit.  They claimed you could delete her combat kit entirely and based SOLELY on teleporting she would be OP.

Do you agree that deleting everything but backtrek watches that she would be strong?

I wouldn't say op but if it were to have a choice I have no doubt in my mind anyone committing to the character long term would go for her teleportation over her damage perks again I wouldn't say it'd make her op but I don't consider her op to begin with so idk how relevant my opinion in that matter would be.

[Cheggf]

She doesn't need further encouragement to avoid playing risky and just use her cowardly tools to hide and interact with the combat as little as possible. 

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

15 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

You can absolutely have slow characters with fun abilities, look at Woodie and his Moose ability, for instance.

You mean the character who's most effective combat strategy for many fights is to charge cancel, and who also has normal walking speed as part of their skill tree (which pretty much everyone uses, because weremoose mastery is the correct choice)? 

I really can't see anything fun about a slow character. Many players find it difficult to switch to normal speed characters after playing WX. DST is a game that really encourages constant movement, whether that be in fighting or gathering. I also think the speed penalty (or most other old nerfs) goes directly against encouraging players to be in high risk situations (aka being old), which is what I find to be most fun about Wanda.

[Anis5240]

14 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Wilson fans better get used to it lol

no offense but this shouldn't be said as a "funny thing". Yes, he's the vanilla character whatsoever but many, MANY of those who play him wanted the torch tree to be improved. The torch tree may as well not exist and it won't change anything, especially due to it being limited to torches only. If the light radius and durability was extended to other light items, then ok, it's acceptable at best. The transmutation and beard trees are what Wilson players will choose most of the time and even then the majority of the transmutation were basic stuff aside from the iridescent gem craft.