Why i think Wanda should be slower when old

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

no offense but this shouldn't be said as a "funny thing". Yes, he's the vanilla character whatsoever but many, MANY of those who play him wanted the torch tree to be improved. The torch tree may as well not exist and it won't change anything, especially due to it being limited to torches only. If the light radius and durability was extended to other light items, then ok, it's acceptable at best. The transmutation and beard trees are what Wilson players will choose most of the time and even then the majority of the transmutation were basic stuff aside from the iridescent gem craft.

Make a post about it if you want, it won't be the first.  Klei is the one you need to convince, not me.

Nerfing Wanda isn't going to change Wilson.

IMO even if you were tasked with needing to nerf Wanda a general slow in old age would be a horrible way to do it.  Her whole point is to be more risky, so you should lean into that.  Slow movement doesn't make her risky, it makes her slow.  Slow movement means you'll compensate by fighting even more safe, probably joining the Beefalo crowd.

That is what really happens when you do nerfs like this.  Wendy damage nerf?  Beefalo.  Maxwell 75 health?  Beefalo.  Wormwood / Warly not being able to heal?  Beefalo.

A much better nerf would be giving her heal watch a shorter, global cd so you can't run multiple watches.  Stick it somewhere around 60-70% of its current cd.  That way people will have to own their mis-plays rather than simply stacking heal watches.  Essentially enforce the risk, but still allow good plays.

Or maybe change her damage in old age.  Instead of a flat bonus you could give her a dynamic scale based on how low her health AND armor are - encouraging you to even go in with zero armor rather than running 95% essentially cancelling how low her health allegedly is at this point.  Make her weaker than her current state >70 years and 90%+ armor, but if you go 70+ years and <90% you could be even stronger maybe.  You'd at least be in 1 shot range of many mobs and almost every boss at that point to justify the damage better.

Nerfs like that would actually encourage her risky play style.  Another example, and a nerf I fully support right now is to absolutely GUT her alarming watch when not old.  Give it cane damage when young, and maybe axe damage when middle age.  No sense in getting a good weapon like that if you're going to also stay young.

[Fatkitty]

Do people just sit around all day and look for the smallest things to complain about? 

 

[goblinball]

I think you are severely overestimating how big of a drawback having low HP is with old wanda

im not the best at combat honestly and I never even played wanda that much, but when I did I didn’t touch her old form that much honestly simply because I didn’t want to risk dying so much. I’ve seen skilled and experienced players risk this and die as old wanda, and they’d die way more than they would otherwise. Not everyone is some god gamer who can do the ruins and every boss no-hit. I bet some of the people in this very thread couldn’t last very long as old wanda in the ruins, or against certain bosses. I know I and most other players couldn’t, that’s for sure.

also, what’s the deal with nerfing her speed anyways? What’s fun about this?? Too often people get too caught up with balance, they forget about what the whole point of balance is: to make sure stuff is fun. I don’t think decreasing old Wanda’s speed sounds fun at all. I don’t know if I could ever come up with a less fun drawback than that. Would fighting dfly as wanda with 10% less speed suddenly make the fight ten times as fun?

[ChintzyGnat]

I would rather have 1 hp and deal 300 damage than walk slower. Wanda is fun as hell when your good at kiting because your doing so much with so much risk.

Wanda is balanced and needs no touch except what Kleis does for her tree.

Using Wanda is terrible now however with the new planar as the new lunar bosses obliterate her and she barely damages in return. 

Wanda does not need a nerf. Cut the she's op bs because that ship never sailed in the first place.

[HowlVoid]

Old age is a terrible reason for nerfing her speed. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Wicker, would we nerf her speed too?

The game progression and boss/enemy encounters are based around Wilson's speed. Speed should never be take away as a base, only ever given. 

Speed doesn't just translate to kiting, it's a core function for interacting with the game. As I see it Wanda isn't just one but three characters. You're not nerfing one part of Wanda, you're nerfing ALL of old Wanda.

If old Wanda should be nerfed than maker her more frail. 

High-risk, high reward at it's core is offset by skill (the risk). The higher the skill level the lower the risk, it's what makes high-risk, high reward fun. Lowering her speed doesn't increase the skill ceiling, but instead punishes all players of all skill levels, permanently. it's just not a good way of balancing a character, especially a combat character who will become sluggish for no reason.

[Mysterious box]

21 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Old age is a terrible reason for nerfing her speed. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Wicker, would we nerf her speed too?

I did...

[W0l0l0]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

It is quite reasonable assumption and it has nothing to do with game's difficulty. We have never had characters be as balanced as they currently are and it is only getting better with skill trees. For example, Wolfgang got the short end of the stick (His skill tree is really boring though) while other characters that needed more buffs were the focus.

I disagree, to an extent. Unless something happened with Winona that I missed I don't think characters are more balanced now than they've ever been. I certainly feel like the distance between the weakest and strongest character has gotten larger. Skill trees did definitely help kinda in a half assed way but the overall balance is a bit too broad and subjective for me to type about. And I do think character balance depends on difficulty since they have to be balanced based off the environment.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

Formula exists for a reason and straying away from it is a risk that you don't have to take but klei does, they are going to lose money if game/skins don't sell well while it is easy for you to speak about it on the forums.

Don't Starve started off unique, it's only now that it appears to follow these trends. It's not "straying away", it appears to be running after the crowd, to attract people who wouldn't have been interested in the game to begin with. If a game starts to lose it's identity to copy others, thats pretty worrying to me.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

Because game evolves over time and DST has so much more content compared to DS. I don't really like planar system but I don't think that it is all that bad. A lot of players complain on the forums because veterans can get "endgame gear" in the first season, clearing ruins and killing bosses.

Thats not really valid because Planar mechanics are a relatively recent addition. Up until then we were doing dandy without it. Whether or not it's is the end of the world is up for debate, but I appreciate that you're more tame about it (I personally don't like it).

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

That is your assumption and we don't have any evidence of klei stating anything like that. Lore doesn't matter as much as you think it does so being the "king of the shadows" or whatever only matters to select number of people and it isn't a reason to have Maxwell be as strong as he is and I don't really care much that he is, the bigger problem to me is that he can use Wicker's books with no penalty after bone helm, If he had his own abilities that made him this strong I would care even less.

This is true, it's down to personal belief. I believe that if Wanda was weaker, Maxwell would have also been weaker during his refresh (it's worth noting that it's not just Wanda, but the overall power standards set by the reworks at the time. Wickerbottom was also pretty potent, it just happens that Wanda was particularly noticeable as a comparison). And I am in agreement on the book issue (once again though, I see this as an addition intended to compete with Wanda and to suit his character).

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

Why are you suggesting for character nerfs in that case? If that is what you think, you'd want all characters to be as powerful as Wanda and Maxwell or you are just jealous of players that main these characters and want them nerfed so that your main be just as strong.

I think it is a reasonable request to have a rough balance with characters so that I don't feel punished for wanting to play a certain way. And I believe power creep is one of the biggest issues we have right now.

And for the record, I'm currently playing some Maxwell due to these exact problems. Yep, I'd nerf Maxwell and my own playing experience so that power creep could be held back.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

Like @Yuukosaid Wanda isn't even that strong post rift, its so weird to pick her out but there is so little discussion about other characters that are as or nearly as powerful.

I agree with this one. As unpopular as it is though, I'd advocate for nerfs for these characters as well. In an ideal world the rifts wouldn't require more buffs and skill trees which complicates things further.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

Why is that such an issue? If Walter players no matter how few of them there are they can suggest changes. If there are almost no players that main him why would the character receive as much of an effort from developers? Its not like I am saying he shouldn't be buffed but there can be simple buffs like Wolfgang's skill tree that give him a massive power buff but are simpler.

Because I'm worried about parts of the game being neglected. In my opinion the state of Winona and Woodie were past unacceptable at certain points. On a personal note I don't like skill trees, but as a double edged sword for both our arguments, I guess it makes characters harder to complete so therefore sorta more balanced.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

So you also see that popular characters are usually stronger ones, that proves my point that not many players want to play characters with a downside like Walter without power to back it up. 

Maxwell and Wanda (or any other character you find powerful) won't receive any nerfs and will only get stronger with skill trees. They may not get skill trees like Woodie but they will get buffs as that is the point of skill trees.

We have not seen character nerfs apart from Wolfgang and a lot of players complained and they have a point, why does their character need to get nerfed because other character mains are jealous? It goes back to DST being a sandbox game and you can literally do everything you want even on multiplayer servers and not base with other players.

It's a bit redundant when characters are made stronger and then Planar counteracts it so more buffs are needed again in skill trees and then the game ends up overall the same but more convoluted and worse off in the balance. I believe Don't Starve has it's appeal with it's challenge (to a delicate extent). Making the game easier, in my opinion (as a general rule), is dangerous to the retention.

Not to say that characters have to be perfectly balanced, not at all. It's alright to have some easier characters, but the creep that Wanda introduced was way overboard and puts the game out of whack.

 

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

I don't want klei to waste time balancing characters as I am not playing MOBA or PVP. DST doesn't need to have even nearly as close to balance as these games do and currently the character balance is really good, like you have mentioned characters that got skill trees can compete and we don't need characters to be any closer in balance.

I sorta agree. Balance is definitely less important in Don't Starve, and I wouldn't want too much time going into balancing. I just don't like characters getting stronger constantly.

On 3/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, 00petar00 said:

There are players that don't want their characters to be buffed to match up with the stronger characters but skill trees will make them compete even if they will never be at the same level.

Ye I guess I qualify as one of them, but only under the condition that the other characters go back to how it's been before, because I feel like skill trees and Planar are having more drastic effects throughout the game now.

On 3/17/2024 at 6:38 PM, prettynuggets said:

i see nothing wrong in that. i remember people took pride using weak char as challenge, beating the game with wes with no death no hit etc..
why now suddenly we in dire need of balance of power? so onechar wont be overly powerful than other char?

Nah, I've always wanted Klei to be restrained with power creep. Perhaps Planar and skill trees affecting the entire constant is probably making some of us more vocal. Myself included.

On 3/17/2024 at 6:38 PM, prettynuggets said:

why not all people use wanda ? wolfgang maybe?
why i keep seeing wendy wormwood or wigfrid flooding the pub server? so this three is the OP one or what ?
klei no need to adjust so all char is in a standardized power. it just need balance in multiplayer aspect, their symbiotic combo with other char. make the game fun in multiplayer... 
can have fun even in solo play ..  

I'd say it's because the latter three are generally easier than the others. As said previously I don't think a crazy balance is required, I am just heavily against the power creep. 

I agree with the synergy, having the interesting character combinations can be nice and can make each character feel more balanced based off supply/demand.

On 3/18/2024 at 12:01 AM, Yuuko said:

Bottom line though - if the reason you want Wanda nerfed is because Walter isn't good enough, or Wilson is too "Wilson-ey" then ... gl with that lol.  Wanda is unlikely to change, and especially unlikely to get nerfs.  She is pretty far from the strongest character in the game having a very basic and streamlined kit that does 2 things very well, but one of them only for the middle part of the game, and the other only late.  Compared to Wolfgang, Maxwell, and others she is falling behind.  You'd do better to base your balance complaints more broadly - such as "we need more impactful downsides in general" and "combat characters are gaining too much power" so that you can properly target what you *really* want rather than spinning wheels on what is essentially a strawman.

Hopefully my previous replies outline my reasoning better. The power creep is having large effects on game balance now and I think it will be bad for the long term. Wilson doesn't need to be super interesting for me to be happy; just to be useful by comparison.

And yes, those techniques for persuasion are generally better. However I'm peeing in the wind either way, and I latched onto this thread in particular because I did.

On 3/18/2024 at 5:04 AM, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

You mean the character who's most effective combat strategy for many fights is to charge cancel, and who also has normal walking speed as part of their skill tree (which pretty much everyone uses, because weremoose mastery is the correct choice)? 

Yes I do. The risk from the sluggishness makes for a really satisfying line up when you get a good shot.

 

On 3/18/2024 at 5:04 AM, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

I also think the speed penalty (or most other old nerfs) goes directly against encouraging players to be in high risk situations (aka being old), which is what I find to be most fun about Wanda.

Ah yes, with the whip to keep the enemy away and a way to constantly revive yourself. 

I agree that speed is really important in this game, but as I said earlier, the speed nerf in this circumstance can be overcome in a range of ways.

[Mike23Ua]

I kinda just want to see a late game old age Wanda having to move slower, but she makes up for that with funny teleport rifts.

I mean the chick literally has her own pocket wormholes… right?

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

I disagree, to an extent. Unless something happened with Winona that I missed I don't think characters are more balanced now than they've ever been.

I believe they were considering only post-skill tree characters, as clearly there are still power discrepancies left over from the initial refresh pass that haven't been touched.  Considering that, I'd say Wilson is the only outlier.  The other characters have all come out with reasonably useful kits that excel in their place and *extremely surprisingly* Klei has shown they are willing to touch them up which is a very hopeful move...

I doubt they would do any major changes to the skill trees at this point, but if they can at least keep their hand on the wheel with the whole cast as they continue releasing them, maintaining the expected power of a character with a willingness to re-visit old trees as needed then I think we're going in the right direction for balance between characters at least.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

This is true, it's down to personal belief. I believe that if Wanda was weaker, Maxwell would have also been weaker during his refresh (it's worth noting that it's not just Wanda, but the overall power standards set by the reworks at the time. Wickerbottom was also pretty potent, it just happens that Wanda was particularly noticeable as a comparison). And I am in agreement on the book issue (once again though, I see this as an addition intended to compete with Wanda and to suit his character).

I think that Wolfgang long stood as "the" combat character, with Wig as a reasonable "safer" option.  Wanda was introduced to compete with Wolfgang for top damage dealer spot and imo it was successful.  She brought out nearly identical damage in a way that didn't step on his toes, and actually made his existing kit feel pretty balanced since now there was another option on his tier to contend with.

Klei definitely went hard with the Wicker and Max refreshes, but I'm not sure if Wanda was why.  I know there was a lot of positive feedback from the community here on the forums to push Wicker into more power, and for Maxwell to really flex as a shadow puppet master.  Wicker was more niche* useful previously, especially after the farming book nerfs and Max had been pretty bad for a long stretch too.  I kind feel the fact that these were capping off the refreshes, that they already knew Planar and skill trees were next, which would include revisiting all other characters anyway, are more likely reasons for going hard on those refreshes than the state of Wanda.

Hard to say exactly without being in Klei's office though.

imo if Wanda was weaker - as in doing less damage total she would have been a failure.  Why play a "risk" character if the reward is any less than Wolfgang?  She was essentially required to deal at least as much damage as him.  The routes were to either also deal more damage than him since she had a lot of "risk" that he didn't, or to gain extra advantages (alarming clock range, backtreks) that gave her clear value in addition to the "risky" combat kit.

I do think Wanda could be weaker in the "risk" area, as in be made to be more risky.  I don't agree that a move speed nerf is the way to do it as I don't feel this would actually encourage risky play.  I already made my post about that though.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

Because I'm worried about parts of the game being neglected. In my opinion the state of Winona and Woodie were past unacceptable at certain points. On a personal note I don't like skill trees, but as a double edged sword for both our arguments, I guess it makes characters harder to complete so therefore sorta more balanced.

It's a bit redundant when characters are made stronger and then Planar counteracts it so more buffs are needed again in skill trees and then the game ends up overall the same but more convoluted and worse off in the balance. I believe Don't Starve has it's appeal with it's challenge (to a delicate extent). Making the game easier, in my opinion (as a general rule), is dangerous to the retention.

In this case skill trees are essentially a means to an end.  I would have preferred a simple second round of refreshes targeting characters who needed it like Winona, Woodie, etc while ignoring characters who otherwise had complete kits like Wanda, Maxwell, etc.  Skill trees do accomplish this though.  Woodie came out of his pretty good and Winona will certainly be made better by hers.  With planar being added in they had to revisit all the characters anyway so this is the right way assuming the game had no path forward without planar.

 

This is kinda the thing about planar - why I don't like it - why I think they should have done it a different way - etc.  Players wouldn't have liked a simple nerf to damage multipliers and high defense armors so they had to tie it in with something else to make it more palatable.  Planar is more of a smoke & mirrors game than a fix for it though.  It sets a precedence that the game is scaling up, and because the game is scaling up players expect their own capabilities to scale up.  It becomes an unending arms race to inflated numbers.

I posted about this when it was first release though, that planar coming out of left field at that point and following the NG+ pattern isn't going to end well...  but here we are.  In my experience NG+ patterns typically signal the end of a game's life.  At a point it goes too far and essentially makes an "end" to the game where previously there wasn't one.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

Hopefully my previous replies outline my reasoning better. The power creep is having large effects on game balance now and I think it will be bad for the long term. Wilson doesn't need to be super interesting for me to be happy; just to be useful by comparison.

I do think that a number of factors that made Wilson exist as the vanilla character are no longer relevant.  He isn't the first character everyone plays, in DST we get our choice of characters from the start.  Skill trees aren't unlocked at the start, so it doesn't violate the vanilla experience if that is what someone wants.  In DS the difference between vanilla and another character was also much smaller, where now being vanilla next to Woodie, Willow, Wig etc is a very big disparity...  I agree he should get more power.

My comment was less about my own feelings and more that the ball is in Klei's court.  They want Wilson to be this, just like they want planar to be that.  My comment was more fatalistic considering Klei's opinion rather than aligning with it.  I feel we know what Klei's vision of Wilson is, and we must accept it.  If that means changing characters because he's left too far behind then so be it.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

11 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Yes I do. The risk from the sluggishness makes for a really satisfying line up when you get a good shot.

I think you missed the point about the moose not having a speed penalty with the skill tree.

11 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

Ah yes, with the whip to keep the enemy away and a way to constantly revive yourself. 

The whip really doesn't mitigate risk, unless you're cheesing bee queen. It's more to make the weapon feel unique. Also, the second chance watch isn't even worth the bone fragments to craft, especially considering how easy it is to get life-giving amulets.

[Retepeter]

hey guys let's ruin a character because uhhh I felt like it

[Chaghatai]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:36 AM, Sacco said:

wanda is pretty good as of now, especially her old form.

her young and middle ages are ok and don't need any type of change, the problem is her old age form.

What do you mean "the problem" - Wicker is on the older side too and she's not slow 

It's not like it has to be "realistic" in certain ways - the children do base damage for example and don't have -50% damage or something like that

You're basically saying she needs a nerf, but I don't think she is OP at all