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Why are some people mad that Willow is a mage now??


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Ever since Skiltrees were introduced,, I've seen countless Willow mains say stuff along the lines of “I hope they give her magic fire powers, that could really make her stand out” and now, that Klei gave us just that, you guys are MAD??? 

 

The most common complaint I hear is "but she never showed any sign of being magical" 

 

As if having fire-proof abilities and having a teddy bear that can come to life when you're in distress ISN'T magic. 

 

It honestly feels like people just want to complain about ANYTHING Klei puts out 

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6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I've literally never seen anyone ask for her to be a mage. Every single time I've seen someone discuss Willow's skill tree it's been unanimous that people did not want her to be a mage. 

I've met people who wanted that. Obviously that doesn't equal all Willow fans, but just the ones I've personally met

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Two different groups of people.

Some like Willow as a fire mage, and many have suggested this on the forums.

Some like Willow as a crazy, unhinged person who just loves fire - no magic needed.

Some Willow fans hate Bernie too :\ 

I'm fine with the thematic path.

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I've always always always seen people talk about how much willow needed more to do with fire, for the entire 9 damned years i've been here. The skillset accomplished this with flying colors, nigh every interaction that fire has with the environment, willow is adept at using to her advantage.

The way people talk about it gives me the impression that they just don't like the presentation, they wish she would be throwing matches around instead of throwing fire around by itself. I personally find this reasoning to be pitifully little justification to dislike the skill tree if the difference between you liking it and disliking is a mere animation. I think it does a very good job with willow's character.

Edited by Primalflower
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Consider the following: the cast of characters in DST were lured into the Constant with promises of being able to do something or be something they could not be in the real world.

It is super important to note that Willow was being chased by Nightmare creatures in the REAL WORLD as a child in the orphanage, and I’m assuming that she has some sort of connection between the constant without ever making the shady “Deal” with Maxwell.

Maxwell was using Willow as a Puppet to trap everyone else, so is it too far fetched to think that maybe Maxwell had already discovered Willow already in the constant & used her as a Gateway to sucker others in?

Wolfgang wanted ridiculously unrealistic super human strength, he made a shady deal and got it.

Willow wanted to control fire, let the girl control fire.

It can’t get much more simple than that.

And frankly I find the idea of chugging down alcohol and then spitting it out onto her lighter to be hilariously inappropriate for DS.

Thats some straight up Bender out of Futurama stuff right there? Didn’t Lois Griffen from family guy also barbecue a snowman during a holiday special this same way?

I don’t think turning Willow into a drunk fire playing with fool would be anywhere near as interesting as having supernatural powers.

 

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people act as if it's something that came out of nowhere, and thats nothing short of gaslighting.

i mean, sure, willow has never been associated with firey mage-y magic-y witch-y type things before... but... wait a m,inute....

will-witc.png.9622fc90ea99899e38f82bac9cad5e03.png.db09af5edf45811a294bc473f9bfc3ce.png

Edited by Primalflower
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3 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I thought she was more of a pyromaniac/arsonist rather than a pyromancer. She struck me as someone who makes makeshift explosives instead of magically controlling the fire.

she is all of these things at once. willow is a pyromaniac (and thereby arsonist) who exists in the constant. the constant has a long and storied history of enhancing various traits of yours magically. the skill tree is just the natural progression of that concept

man, i do wish she could make explosives though. that'd be fun.

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1 minute ago, Primalflower said:

the constant has a long and storied history of enhancing various traits of yours magically.

For sure, I think she would have magical stuff. Most characters have adapted to use magic in their kits. I thought her new items would be more similar to Walter's ammo. Some of it is magical, but some is not. Instead, she's all magical.

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Im not really too invested in this but imo it just looks so out of place in dst. It looks workshop-y :crushed: 

Willow burning mobs to death and collecting floating wisps to spew out cold fire in a torrent in front of her to mow things down is just so bizarre..

DST has become a totally different beast.

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She's always been to an extend magical, not so much to a degree that we see in her skill tree.
But in DS she is able to start up fires under her feet simply by losing her mind a bit, and that certainly wasn't just her putting down a fire with her lighter, that was pyro-kinetic abilities. Something that wasn't ever built up on because of her old days with griefing and it being less protected during the beta days of DST so they had to tone her down. Thus we got a Bernie update. Probably why we've gotten so used to seeing such a basic fire loving Willow and not a mad woman with magical abiltiies. 

Another case is that she has blown literal buildings up with fire and i don't think it's normal to just create explosional impacts on such a whim, from accidental to straight up purposeful. 

another reminder that she is clearly a reference to Stephen King's FireStarter (Willow having the same name) which is about a girl with the ability to set things on fire with her mind. 
I'd say that fits pretty well for Willow.

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1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Consider the following: the cast of characters in DST were lured into the Constant with promises of being able to do something or be something they could not be in the real world.

It is super important to note that Willow was being chased by Nightmare creatures in the REAL WORLD as a child in the orphanage, and I’m assuming that she has some sort of connection between the constant without ever making the shady “Deal” with Maxwell.

Maxwell was using Willow as a Puppet to trap everyone else, so is it too far fetched to think that maybe Maxwell had already discovered Willow already in the constant & used her as a Gateway to sucker others in?

Wolfgang wanted ridiculously unrealistic super human strength, he made a shady deal and got it.

Willow wanted to control fire, let the girl control fire.

It can’t get much more simple than that.

And frankly I find the idea of chugging down alcohol and then spitting it out onto her lighter to be hilariously inappropriate for DS.

Thats some straight up Bender out of Futurama stuff right there? Didn’t Lois Griffen from family guy also barbecue a snowman during a holiday special this same way?

I don’t think turning Willow into a drunk fire playing with fool would be anywhere near as interesting as having supernatural powers.

 

Yeah i can get behind something like this tbh. You could even go as far as to say Willow could have been manipulated by Bernie being possessed by Them (shadow) and this kept her safe from the nightmares (explains why they'd be around her too), you could argue when it possessed Charlie it gave up using bernie as a tool and left it empty - remnants of power left over, agitated when insane (link to NF/Shadow stuff) it animated it. 

perhaps Bernie is just a hollow vessel that, originally gave her forbidden knowledge, eventually (now) it can hold host to the shadows or be possessed by lunar.

(not necessarily what i think, but the lore is loose enough for a lot of potential reasons - Not that i'm saying it's intentional, just a happy accident :p)

Quick edit: To clarify, i'm not suggesting Willow had actual powers in the real world, but the Constant (and the influences within it) has a way of 'changing' things, and the cast of characters have certainly messed with forces beyond camping outside and finding food :p

Edited by Uedo
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1 hour ago, maxwell_winters said:

I thought she was more of a pyromaniac/arsonist rather than a pyromancer. She struck me as someone who makes makeshift explosives instead of magically controlling the fire.

While I agree, there's really no in-game way to make destruction a good thing. I guess thematically if they just reskinned her current kit to be fireworks or something instead of magic fire, I would like it more, but I think it is functionally as good as it gets with a destruction based character in a building survival game

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49 minutes ago, PunkShark said:

Another case is that she has blown literal buildings up with fire and i don't think it's normal to just create explosional impacts on such a whim, from accidental to straight up purposeful. 

That's a really good point - i remember people were arguing when that short came out, literally for the reason it exploded, they argued that the explosion was impossible. I guess it's a bit easier to explain now? Willow's a bit of a beast :o

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I wanted the fire part, and I’m glad the fire part wasn’t limited to light or cooking (although enough cooking perks could change my mind). Combat related fire can be both dangerous and annoying to set up, they gave Willow a good niche.

 

I’d prefer not going the mage route, ingenuity and duck tape are more flavorful imo, but I’ll take the conveniences that go with it, and it’s not like their world doesn’t have magic or that she couldn’t have stayed long enough to practice the fiery parts.

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2 hours ago, Primalflower said:

I've always always always seen people talk about how much willow needed more to do with fire, for the entire 9 damned years i've been here. The skillset accomplished this with flying colors, nigh every interaction that fire has with the environment, willow is adept at using to her advantage.

The way people talk about it gives me the impression that they just don't like the presentation, they wish she would be throwing matches around instead of throwing fire around by itself. I personally find this reasoning to be pitifully little justification to dislike the skill tree if the difference between you liking it and disliking is a mere animation. I think it does a very good job with willow's character.

I mean to be fair themeing means a huge amount to most people not just a small minority. They could very well have made each skill work them same with a reasonable more realistic feel that feels more in line with the style of dst however I fully believe the only reason they leaned so hard into a spell caster is no matter how you slice it there would be no justification for her ability to keep firing from spreading and loot from burning with saying "maaagic".

2 hours ago, Primalflower said:

people act as if it's something that came out of nowhere, and thats nothing short of gaslighting.

i mean, sure, willow has never been associated with firey mage-y magic-y witch-y type things before... but... wait a m,inute....

will-witc.png.9622fc90ea99899e38f82bac9cad5e03.png.db09af5edf45811a294bc473f9bfc3ce.png

I mean using skins isn't the best justification either unless we canonized all skins.

That aside I'm not against the fire mage route myself.

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

Im not really too invested in this but imo it just looks so out of place in dst. It looks workshop-y :crushed: 

Willow burning mobs to death and collecting floating wisps to spew out cold fire in a torrent in front of her to mow things down is just so bizarre..

DST has become a totally different beast.

I kinda agree here it still feels really weird just burning mobs and smacking them while they can't fight back and the lunar flame skill for as fun as it is to use definitely looks very odd.

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I mean really I think this would have been a LOT better if Klei released a short for Willow and Wig instead of that Walter thing.  It would have given them a chance to contextualize it.

They really dropped the ball with this update.  Instead of giving us a cool introduction to our new power sets - especially with Willow's being a MASSIVE influx of mechanics and theme, but even for Wig with her rider tree - the "Willow and Wig Skill Spotlight" was a Walter short and skins for Wendy, Walter, and Webber...

I normally think its best for Klei to just keep working, reading feedback and doing their thing - but in this case they might want to actually voice an apology and work to put out a REAL release for these characters that actually highlights them...

Edited by Shosuko
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4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I mean really I think this would have been a LOT better if Klei released a short for Willow and Wig instead of that Walter thing.  It would have given them a chance to contextualize it.

They really dropped the ball with this update.  Instead of giving us a cool introduction to our new power sets - especially with Willow's being a MASSIVE influx of mechanics and theme, but even for Wig with her rider tree - the "Willow and Wig Skill Spotlight" was a Walter short and skins for Wendy, Walter, and Webber...

I normally think its best for Klei to just keep working, reading feedback and doing their thing - but in this case they might want to actually voice an apology and work to put out a REAL release for these characters that actually highlights them...

I definitely agree with the lack of context and spotlight being the spear in the side of this update. While I'm not much of a fan of Willow's new mage vibes, giving her some contextualization would at least make that easier to stomach, so one can only hope we get that context sooner rather than later.

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2 hours ago, Uedo said:

Yeah i can get behind something like this tbh. You could even go as far as to say Willow could have been manipulated by Bernie being possessed by Them (shadow) and this kept her safe from the nightmares (explains why they'd be around her too), you could argue when it possessed Charlie it gave up using bernie as a tool and left it empty - remnants of power left over, agitated when insane (link to NF/Shadow stuff) it animated it. 

perhaps Bernie is just a hollow vessel that, originally gave her forbidden knowledge, eventually (now) it can hold host to the shadows or be possessed by lunar.

(not necessarily what i think, but the lore is loose enough for a lot of potential reasons - Not that i'm saying it's intentional, just a happy accident :p)

Quick edit: To clarify, i'm not suggesting Willow had actual powers in the real world, but the Constant (and the influences within it) has a way of 'changing' things, and the cast of characters have certainly messed with forces beyond camping outside and finding food :p

Well I mean, Willow DID survive a massive explosion inside of a tiny closet that literally blew up the entire building and while everything around her is in flames, she casually walks out of the building without her clothes even needing flames brushed off of them.

So unless y’all wanna claim Willow, Bernie, and her clothes are all Magical things she had in the real world.. then it’s easier to just say Willow herself was always magical.

Im going to take a wild guess and assume that Willow was cast out as a “freak” for having inhuman powers, and that’s when the constant welcomed her in with a warm embrace.

If you want to get really crazy with this lore story, Willow could be so powerful she accidentally made the constant a real place after a nightmare she had. Which could then further explain why the shadow creatures actively pursed her.

But of course, only Klei knows the games actual lore, all I can do is guess at it.

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