Is this REALLY happening again?

[nightrider99]

I don't tend to comment on the forums, just browse them. But I just HAD to comment on all this controversy.

 

I watched OrangE's video on the history of Don't Starve recently (go watch it if you haven't, amazing vid) and noticed something. The whole Krampus controversy is very similar to this one.

 

All the complaining about the skill trees lately.. it feels more like y'all are against the IDEA of skill trees, rather than the ones actually in-game.

From what I can tell, in game a lot of these perks come into effect LATER rather than SOONER, who's going to craft saplings and grass tufts on day one? Who's going to make a massive treeguard army on day one? Who's going to have a full maxed out gym on day one?

You see what I mean? I could go on about all sorts of other stuff, but the main idea is that a lot of these things aren't coming into effect on day one, two or ten. And the ones that do come into effect aren't utterly game breaking.

Despite this I see a lot of people making it out to be utterly game breaking. One person even stated that "I don't need to test it out to know that getting free perks on day 1 is bad." How do you know.. IF YOU HAVEN'T TESTED IT?

And all sorts of other complaints that don't make any kind of sense either! "Dst is turning into a boring mmo!" "This goes against Don't Starve!" "Skill trees are just bad!"

The first one doesn't know what "MMO" means, the second one forgot that Don't Starve's philosophy has always been progress even if you die, And the third one.. is the base of my point.

 

IT'S NOT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IF YOU'RE JUST COMPLAINING. END OF STORY.

 

It feels like everybody who's complaining, hasn't actually tested anything. Almost exactly what happened with krampus, like pointed out in OrangE's video.

Now to be fair, I also haven't tested anything (sad xbox player for now). But from what I could understand from other people who HAVE tested it, it's perfectly fine.

 

At the very least, I want you all to make sure you've tested it, and offer actual criticism for why you don't like it rather than just "Skill trees Bad!!!!" Or "It makes Wilson bad again!!!!!"

Is that too much to ask for?

[Quyzbuk]

nightrider99: Hates people complaining regardless of if they tested or not

Also nightrider99: Made their very first post to complain about complaining while also not testing

 

Is your real name some form of shiska and/or bob? Because you are gonna get skewered for this one.

[Wonz]

3 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

it feels more like y'all are against the IDEA of skill trees

Yes but since they stay we want the most out of them so it doesn't hurt as much.  

I just don't like missing out on the other skills i won't have insight left but currently there' not even 5-8 worthy perks on wormwood for example, used to play games which featured skill trees but most of the time almost every perk was tough choice because almost every perk was good or fun by actually affecting combat, though you unlocked almost all of them by the end of the game if not all before it.   

I had something to say. Combat is like half or more of DST. Thus i think everyone would be welcome to have some of their own flavor to it. If skill tree is missing something affecting combat then damn me, that's one of the most interesting/unavoidable parts and the character's tree is missing out on it, just shame to not take care of something what's unavoidable if you want to progress to champion for example. 

That's another reason why i don't like wormwood's lunar perks.  You guys know they persist like insight points from world to world, from server to server? For woodie it means he'll be free from full moons or he'll be able to not care about shadows interrupting his bossfight and fight a sanity drainer like deerclops at 0 sanity as soon as he joins and makes an idol because his FW/CC kill unlock carried over to other server just as his insights. 
In wormwood's case it's locked to post CC armor so pretty much as many players want to rerun a world as different character or almost never in pubs unless rifts are enabled from the start.   

Those hard boss unlockable perks carrying over might be a bit ridiculous but as I said I don't like missing out and average worm player compared to woodie or wolf will miss out on alligment perks by having opportunity to benefit from them very rarely, also they're not quite good, ensnare will stop enemy only when they already hit you and you fight mostly melee and they have longer range than you so that doesn't make difference, everytime they attack, you attack, if you run out to stationary enemy you have to do the dodge and attack just then. I can imagine it being okayish against dogs but past champion you shouldn't struggle with them.    

[Evelo]

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

it feels more like y'all are against the IDEA of skill trees, rather than the ones actually in-game.

Yes. I am against the idea of skill trees. They seem to reinforce the abuse of the celestial portal and I am not okay with that. I already dislike that people can abuse the celestial portal and this whole "swap character" nonsense. People can do what they want but I am not happy with it. So, yea I am against the idea of skill trees "rather than the ones actually in-game".

The only skills I like are Wormwood's Lunar Cultivator skills but I would like them more as a reward for killing CC, not for Killing CC once ever than having it unlocked after 150 days of play time forever is nonsense to me. I want skill trees to be unlocked differently than current Insight, and for them to be a per world basis and unable to swap them out willy nilly. Maybe a one time use swap (per world) in case you made the wrong choices. I would actually enjoy them a lot then.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Evelo said:

Yes. I am against the idea of skill trees. They seem to reinforce the abuse of the celestial portal and I am not okay with that. I already dislike that people can abuse the celestial portal and this whole "swap character" nonsense. People can do what they want but I am not happy with it. So, yea I am against the idea of skill trees "rather than the ones actually in-game".

While I more or less don't care about the whole pick and swap thing most of the time I do gotta say kinda feels weird that your forced to swap to Wormwood if you want to craft plants for base building when if we're being real the only reason for those crafts is for decoration. (Yes this is move craftable plants to a crafting station propaganda sue me)

[Evelo]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

(Yes this is move craftable plants to a crafting station propaganda sue me)

Hey, im fully okay with that.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

I don't tend to comment on the forums, just browse them. But I just HAD to comment on all this controversy.

How unfortunate, for the rest of us at least. 

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

All the complaining about the skill trees lately.. it feels more like y'all are against the IDEA of skill trees, rather than the ones actually in-game.

I mean... kinda? It's a massive, and I mean massive gameplay addition that most games design around when adding it. Not to mention that the skill tree just means more character buffs on top of the last 3 years worth of character buffs that came with the refreshes. Skill trees as a concept are something that should have been considered when DST was still in beta nearly 10 years ago. All that to say, I'm not opposed to skill trees as a concept. But I am opposed to skill trees as an afterthought. 

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

From what I can tell, in game a lot of these perks come into effect LATER rather than SOONER, who's going to craft saplings and grass tufts on day one? Who's going to make a massive treeguard army on day one? Who's going to have a full maxed out gym on day one?

You see what I mean? I could go on about all sorts of other stuff, but the main idea is that a lot of these things aren't coming into effect on day one, two or ten. And the ones that do come into effect aren't utterly game breaking.

A lot of them, yes. But there are still quite a few perks that function day one. And those that do can be very impactful. Wormwood doesn't really have any, but even people avidly supporting skill trees tend to call Wormwood's boring, so I wouldn't be surprised if that saw some revisions. Meanwhile Wolfgang's chore perk means that he's going to be leveling forests faster than Paul Bunyan, and his alignment perks; specially the lunar strategist perks; give him a massive boost of damage on top of his already massive boost of damage to some very common and valuable enemies. Especially when it comes to every sweaty Wolfgang main's favorite past time, ruins rushing. 

 

And then ofcourse there's Woodie's perk tree, which far and away has the most "Sooner rather than later" perks. Day 1 cheaper boards. Day 1 discount Walking Cane. Day 1 Uber-Pickaxe. Day 1 Bearger. Day 1 Jelly Beans as Weremoose. Weremoose is the most egregious example here. See, Woodie's pre-skill tree problem is that he didn't scale past the early game, as a lack of healing and Hambat damage means that Weremoose was largely outclassed by a log suit and hambat. But with the skill tree, Weremoose gets health regeneration and damage that out-paces the dark sword. He still doesn't scale past early-game. But now his early game is enough to deal with the late game. 

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

 

Despite this I see a lot of people making it out to be utterly game breaking. One person even stated that "I don't need to test it out to know that getting free perks on day 1 is bad." How do you know.. IF YOU HAVEN'T TESTED IT?

How do YOU know that they're good if you haven't tested it either? Hmmm?

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

And all sorts of other complaints that don't make any kind of sense either! "Dst is turning into a boring mmo!" "This goes against Don't Starve!" "Skill trees are just bad!"

The first one doesn't know what "MMO" means, the second one forgot that Don't Starve's philosophy has always been progress even if you die, And the third one.. is the base of my point.

1. They call it that because features like skill trees are often associated with MMOs. 

2. The only progress that's been made historically even if you die is the player's skill. Get to the night, get murdered by Charlie, start again, make a torch before night falls, don't get murdered by Charlie. The only other way players "Progressed" in the original Don't Starve was unlocking new characters. Which didn't automatically made them stronger, it just gave them more options.

3. ???

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

 

IT'S NOT CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IF YOU'RE JUST COMPLAINING. END OF STORY.

See you say that, but this website's definition of "Constructive critisism" seems to be blind praise. And any attempts at actually giving the stuff are met by. Well people like you in all honesty. 

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

It feels like everybody who's complaining, hasn't actually tested anything. Almost exactly what happened with krampus, like pointed out in OrangE's video.

At the very least, I want you all to make sure you've tested it, and offer actual criticism for why you don't like it rather than just "Skill trees Bad!!!!" Or "It makes Wilson bad again!!!!!"

And this is what I'm talking about. Your only source for "everybody" complaining without testing is a single guy saying they didn't. And I have given plenty of criticism that's more than just "Thing bad", thank you very much. I do think it's bad, and I gave my reasons for thinking it's bad. But that means nothing when people will just ignore it to blindly praise Klei. 

4 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

Is that too much to ask for?

Apparently, given that this is already the case and you're actively avoiding it. Why should we meet on your terms when you won't even give a passing glance at ours? 

[Antynomity]

bruh

[Ohan]

7 hours ago, Wonz said:

That's another reason why i don't like wormwood's lunar perks.  You guys know they persist like insight points from world to world, from server to server?

Wait… seriously..? I thought the alignment stuff was on a per world basis.

The fact that u only have to kill FW or CC once to have acces to these perks in any other world is crazy!

That really does change my opinion on the lunar guardian skills.. -_- 

 

[-Variant]

13 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Wait… seriously..? I thought the alignment stuff was on a per world basis.

This might change due to the feedback but currently yes, it does carry across worlds, it's how Wilsons one worked!

[abrocator]

11 hours ago, nightrider99 said:

Now to be fair, I also haven't tested anything (sad xbox player for now). But from what I could understand from other people who HAVE tested it, it's perfectly fine.

Curb Your Enthusiasm theme

[_zwb]

I don't like the idea of skill trees for everyone nor its implementation.

Giving everyone skill trees makes Wilson "refresh" a joke, after all these years Wilson finally has something unique and they're taking that away...

Even if you believe that everyone should get skill trees, it's still disappointing. Currently you get points based on days survived only, rather than doing things that helps you progress like building a science machine. If the skill trees aims at helping new players to figure out what to do then it fails miserably, it tells nothing about the game's progression and encourages sitting at base afk. And you somehow can spawn in with those perks, allowing completely negating character downside in Woodie's case.

Why are they buffing the characters again? Has the game become so difficult that they need a buff? No. The game isn't difficult until you open the rifts, which isn't difficult skill wise, but it simply forces you to use the new items locked behind those mobs or they one shot you. Then why is the skill tree available at the start if the game isn't getting "difficult" until rifts?

[abrocator]

7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

See you say that, but this website's definition of "Constructive critisism" seems to be blind praise. And any attempts at actually giving the stuff are met by. Well people like you in all honesty. 

Preach.

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Preach.

I see the opposite, "constructive criticism" that is being defended and bundled with actual criticism is ''Wow DST is becoming RPG MMO MOBA League of Legends corporate consumerist lowest common denominator pandering! Now DS Solo? That was a true vision of true survival mechanics, ohhhhh woe is the game, it's all over, everyone despair!''

 

The last few people to make a thread regarding this group have been staunchly rebuffed by people not in this group, thinking they're the main targets of the rant, and defend them by proxy. 

 

Also skill trees aren't that rare in survival games, many popular survival games have them or some sort of perk unlocking system. It's quite normal.

[abrocator]

4 minutes ago, cropo said:

I see the opposite, "constructive criticism" that is being defended and bundled with actual criticism is ''Wow DST is becoming RPG MMO MOBA League of Legends corporate consumerist lowest common denominator pandering! Now DS Solo? That was a true vision of true survival mechanics, ohhhhh woe is the game, it's all over, everyone despair!''

No. There is plenty of constructive criticism. There is also bad criticism, but that’s always the case and your mock-quote doesn’t represent reality. I could list threads with good criticim if you want? It’s certainly not as the thread starter described it.

Besides, not many people even care about DS solo anymore. It doesn’t come up that much in DST beta discussions.

I can also forgive all the bad comparisons to “MMO” and stuff (skill trees are from RPGs, not specifically MMO RPGs) because some people are young and might have only heard about World of Warcraft when it comes to RPGs (even though WoW is an old game now).

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, abrocator said:

No. There is plenty of constructive criticism.

Yeah, obviously.

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Ohan said:

Wait… seriously..? I thought the alignment stuff was on a per world basis.

The fact that u only have to kill FW or CC once to have acces to these perks in any other world is crazy!

That really does change my opinion on the lunar guardian skills.. -_- 

 

To make matters even weirder you only need to kill them with 1 character to unlock the trees on all characters

[abrocator]

47 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To make matters even weirder you only need to kill them with 1 character to unlock the trees on all characters

Hurray!

[chirsg]

I like skill trees for everyone.

Woodie has become infinitely fun and his depth with his early game team contribution with his wooden crafts adds layers and flexibility to what he wants to do at certain points in the game.

I'm having loads of fun simply playing alone as Woodie. 

dst gets even more fun when you add cooperating players into the mix. 

As a wigfrid main, going back to wigfrid has just felt really barebones... Especially when you play her alone. 

She kind of melds with the other characters with the brightshade swords and armor outdoing her base combat niche being scrapped due to planar mechanics and she's just a character that is stubborn to the concept of death.

I don't really see myself playing wigfrid after the update goes live.

I like skill trees and I am not ashamed to admit it. 

 

I hope wigfrid gets a cool skill tree too to make up for her dumb idle animation.

 

Mod I had to commission to stop me from hating the game after wigfrid's rework.

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, -Variant said:

This might change due to the feedback but currently yes, it does carry across worlds, it's how Wilsons one worked!

To be honest, the left side of the lunar skill tree would become pretty bad if they needed cc to be killed in the world.

[-Variant]

9 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

To be honest, the left side of the lunar skill tree would become pretty bad if they needed cc to be killed in the world.

There's plenty of ways they could handle it without it being overtly annoying. Killing the bosses could be universal, for example as the cheapest answer.
I'd rather leave things as vague, it is ultimately up to Klei how they handle it.

[Dr. Safety]

11 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

To make matters even weirder you only need to kill them with 1 character to unlock the trees on all characters

I dislike how you don't have to beat the boss as that character in order to get their tree. I have to imagine that's a bug. However, I honestly think it's better for skill points to be carried across worlds. For the most part, the skills are fun, not OP. I also feel like there are some perks that aren't the best early game, but are just flat out useless late game. If they were unlocked per world, you'd never see these perks getting used.

A good example of this is the bottom of Woodie's lumberjack tree. Besides the cheaper boards, the other two would never be used. A mediocre helmet and a worse walking cane are both really cheap and really nice to have early game, but become useless very quickly.

[WhackE]

On 7/15/2023 at 2:32 PM, nightrider99 said:

I watched OrangE's video on the history of Don't Starve recently (go watch it if you haven't, amazing vid) and noticed something. The whole Krampus controversy is very similar to this one.

No not really?

Krampus' addition was something that negatively effected the players, now a days he's barely seen normally unless players abuse his spawning mechanic, where as this is something that positively effects characters, and will be seen and acquired immediately. Sure people are complaining and that's probably your over all point, but aside from that I don't think these are very similar situations. The thing you should take away from that vid is that people will always complain and that will never change, whether the complaining is for the worst or for the best will be seen in the future when we can look back at things.

I don't even dislike the idea of skill trees, I don't like their implementation/execution, I think Klei could've done a better job with them, that's all.

[Mysterious box]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I dislike how you don't have to beat the boss as that character in order to get their tree. I have to imagine that's a bug.

I doubt it considering in the broader sense ignoring the character fixes of it this is intended to help new players I imagine this is working as intended

 

24 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

However, I honestly think it's better for skill points to be carried across worlds. For the most part, the skills are fun, not OP. I also feel like there are some perks that aren't the best early game, but are just flat out useless late game. If they were unlocked per world, you'd never see these perks getting used.

A good example of this is the bottom of Woodie's lumberjack tree. Besides the cheaper boards, the other two would never be used. A mediocre helmet and a worse walking cane are both really cheap and really nice to have early game, but become useless very quickly.

Personally I don't have a issue with skill points carrying over because whatever change Kiel could make is going to have a workaround unless they make it ungodly tedious.

[cybers2001]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:26 PM, Theukon-dos said:

See you say that, but this website's definition of "Constructive critisism" seems to be blind praise. And any attempts at actually giving the stuff are met by. Well people like you in all honesty. 

Most criticisms about Wormwood's specific perks seem to be constructive to me.

Wilson mains crying that they aren't the only players with skill trees, however... not so much.