HowlVoid Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I think many of use have been playing this game for a very long time, too long some may say. As with spending too much time with any one "thing" it is easy to find yourself slowly becoming"possessive" over that thing and sometimes even want control over it. This is the state of the Don't Starve Together community currently. There is an insidious level of selfishness in these complaints, the people complaining may not even realize is there. Let me summarize some of these complaints: "The game is not balanced and fun (to me)" "The characters don't have meaningful downsides (to me)" "The game has poor quality (to me)" "I can't play old X character without modding the game" "They are constantly adding content that makes the game easier (to me)" "The game is no longer DST (to me)" Now let's proceed to some of the more hurtful ones. "All the old developers are gone, the new developers don't know what don't starve is." (F*** the new developers I guess) "The game is devoid of criticism because it's free" (F*** all the changes they've made for us I guess) "They keep making changes that goes against what DST is" (F*** any of their own creativity they want to add to the game I guess. This screams Klei needs to be a sweatshop that only pumps content I like) Now let's review the most insidious of them all. "I paid for this game give me the game I was promised." Now, I think it's important for us, having come this far, to swallow this very hard to swallow pill. Because the game isn't stagnating, we are. And no, this isn't about the game is evolving, yadda yadda yadda. Everything some of you are claiming about the original "experience" being gone, is still happening outside your windows but you refuse to look. When will we accept this isn't about the game, you're chasing old highs and adrenaline rushes you won't experience again. You have outgrown the experience. Don't believe me? (I keep the names in because it's all public on the don't starve Facebook group, which is a more casual community than the forums. You can go and verify these are all recent, these are real people, and real experiences.) People are having as much a hard time with winter as you once did. And using old strats with torches as you once did. People are unable to kill bosses as you once were. Some still not knowing in what to do in the early game as you once did. People are still discovering the game as you once did. They don't fret over the "old game" because the game they are playing is THE GAME. Which is a hard concept for many of us to grasp, because what is the norm when it's all you've known? New people will literally open this game and go "oh cool it has skill trees", and be none the wiser we lost our s*it over it. Which in hindsight is ridiculously funny. And there are many more, heck some people still can't kill deerclops. So where is this powercreep? Where is this loss in the don't starve experience? Where is the easy game? Klei isn't "ignoring you", you are ignoring the whole world outside your bubble. Klei is making a fun game for many users just fine, if it's no longer fun for you that's fine. And if you are planning on leaving the game that is ok too. But don't poison my community on your way out. Don't feed lies on your way out. Don't sow narcism, deceit, contempt, scrutiny and an inflated ego on your way out. Having stepped away from the game and coming back on updates has really open my eyes to how much we attack Klei over our misgivings. And I know I do it too. This isn't just about people who hate skill trees, and making bad faith arguments. This is for everyone to hear. Because just because you're not having fun, doesn't mean everyone is like you. Heck the forums are probably a tiny speck on kleis radar and yet they do cater to us very often. Don't deny it, you know they do. This community is full of fun and creative folks, please let's not lose that. Let's not attack the idea, let's make it better. We are losing focus about what game development is about, let's make an enjoyable game. We have the experience, let's put it to good use. Eh? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonboooorn Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I dont believe in this propaganda Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Only I am allowed to say that I have an opinion. If anyone other than me has an opinion they need to know that having an opinion is bad faith and my opinion is not the same as yours. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I don't get the point of this post it really feels like your trying to start a war in this thread you took screen shots of random people having trouble they exist in every game. Calling people out is not the a mature way to handle this and I expect this to become a multi page rage fest on both sides now. Is this what we as community have become people who just try to tear down each other because we don't like their views? If so god bless any newbies who get involved with this newly established hellhole. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 nice opinion, however everyone knows klei is making the game easier (like mmo rpg!!) so they can gain more money because china told them so Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
00petar00 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Frustration is understandable if you don't like the beta. I have criticized an update in the past without saying anything constructive. I did notice a few people insulting developers. I want to ask the individuals in question to stop doing that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonboooorn Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Capybara007 said: nice opinion, however everyone knows klei is making the game easier (like mmo rpg!!) so they can gain more money because china told them so so true! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spep Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Somewhat fair, albeit entirely irrelevant for things like rift content, and the powercreep does not stop existing just because new players dont know about it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 20 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: I don't get the point of this post it really feels like your trying to start a war in this thread you took screen shots of random people having trouble they exist in every game. You missed the point, people are claiming the game can never be like "the original ds" and that it's "devolving". However many are still having those enjoyable experiences. 20 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: Calling people out is not the a mature way to handle this and I expect this to become a multi page rage fest on both sides now. Is this what we as community have become people who just try to tear down each other because we don't like their views? If so god bless any newbies who get involved with this newly established hellhole. I'm trying to defend the game and the developers. I want them to know not everyone thinks this way. Developers read those hurtful things, people not even addressing the update but attacking them outright. Attacking the game. This is a wake up call. 25 minutes ago, Cheggf said: Only I am allowed to say that I have an opinion. If anyone other than me has an opinion they need to know that having an opinion is bad faith and my opinion is not the same as yours. I want us to have opinions on the update. We keep going back and forth completely off topic about if the game itself is bad or not. The developers can't remake the game from the ground up, they can't just tear all that work down. I know you don't like the skill trees, but bad faith arguments like these aren't going to get us anywhere. You can also attack me for "reaction" farming, but again where will that get us. Or any other bad faith arguments you've made. Instead help me and Klei foster a good skill tree. You've been in this community a long time as I have. We can do it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Just now, HowlVoid said: You missed the point, people are claiming the game can never be like "the original ds" and that it's "devolving". Yeah I agree people need to accept that new isn't always bad and may even need to move on but calling people out in a the reason you suck post generally causes more headaches for the developers than it solves and opens the waters for serious arguments. 3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said: Developers read those hurtful things, people not even addressing the update but attacking them outright. Attacking the game. I know it would be bad PR or something so that's probably why they don't but I kind of feel like comments that attack the devs should be grounds for a warning then a banning if it continues as it is a personal attack. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 42 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said: I dont believe in this propaganda It's not, at the very least. We should be discussing on topic about the update itself. Not wether if DST is no longer an enjoyable game or that Klei is ignoring some of us. At the very least, we should stay on topic. 6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: Yeah I agree people need to accept that new isn't always bad and may even need to move on but calling people out in a the reason you suck post generally causes more headaches for the developers than it solves and opens the waters for serious arguments. Honestly you're right, this may be a bad call. I hope at the very least some people have become a little more open minded to the things they are saying. 6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said: I know it would be bad PR or something so that's probably why they don't but I kind of feel like comments that attack the devs should be grounds for a warning then a banning if it continues as it is a personal attack. True. At the very least I hope I have grazed some of things the devs may have wanted to say. I don't claim to speak for them of course, but I know if they said something like this people would attack them. At least here they can attack me instead. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tour Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 29 minutes ago, Cheggf said: Only I am allowed to say that I have an opinion. If anyone other than me has an opinion they need to know that having an opinion is bad faith and my opinion is not the same as yours. my favorite has to be : "you don't actually like the change, it is just toxic positivity" Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I endorse the message of the post, that is to make the community more supportive, and to remind people that you idea does not necessarily represent the experience of everyone else and the game is not about you. But I can’t agree with your reasoning. Everyone has their freedom to voice their opinions under community guideline. Each of those posts represent a portion of the community. So are you attacking that freedom to possibly complain and find people with same complaints? Or are you attacking community guideline as those posts seem bad for community atmosphere and unfair to development team? I agree some of the recents post have lower quality and effort and some have better quality and constructive feedbacks. But bad posts have their freedom to exist too, as long as they follow community guideline. Because I believe the community “reaction” and comments can automatically separate good posts from bad posts. On the contrary, I would endorse those seemingly “bad” post, because despite immature ideas, they do sometimes contain valid ideas hidden in plain words, and have inspired me and others with new ideas. This community witnesses the cooking process of the good ideas from raw to well done. We should allow raw and inedible ideas to exist for the potentials. The argument that new players are having fun is irrelevant. This at is mostly due to survival bias, I think. New players won’t invest their energy to make an account to write a long post to complain, they just move on. All those “it’s fun” posts are made by those who are willing to join the community to explore the game further. That’s why most of the new players in the community like the game, and don’t have anything to complain about. Plus, their lack of experience and knowledge disqualifies them for most of their complaints. Your argument about new players doesn’t stand. This forum is a form social media, what you see (the number of reaction, posts, comments, similar opinions) isn’t always good reflection of the reality. The facts need to be extracted and examined under scrutiny to be useful. I personally would think, your main complaint that those posts are insidiously in bad faith, is false. Badly formulated and formatted opinions are not equivalent to bad faith. They were probably just pre-mature and needed more time to marinade. And pre-mature ideas should be allowed to exist for inspiration and discussion. The community has welcomed some biggest changes in the past, such as menu UI change, character rework completely different from DS versions. We have proven that we are supportive of the dev team in the past. If this time, the community doesn’t like the new changes, it’s not because our members don’t like changes, it’s because they don’t like bad changes. I’m only trying to counter op’s arguments. But I endorse this post because of its message and I endorse any posts under community guideline. I don’t think people should feel bad about post their honest but immature ideas, or their true emotions and reactions. The forum has a mechanism to take them all and sort them out. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextops Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, goatt said: On the contrary, I would endorse those seemingly “bad” post, because despite immature ideas, they do sometimes contain valid ideas hidden in plain words The problem is that whether or not they’re right, many people will just ignore those posts because they refuse to show common decency or structure their post in a respectful way. This helps no one. It can cause actual constructive criticism to be buried and make it so people who are actually being constructive are less likely to be heard because the arguments from people made in bad faith give them a bad rep. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrimbles Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 This entire post is just complaining that people feel differently from you. I can't believe people are liking it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNugget Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 omg Howl hiii Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeklo Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, HowlVoid said: "They are constantly adding content that makes the game easier (to me)" I agree with the heart of this post, but this one here is a bad example. There are several people pushing their opinion as fact or being rude, but there are plenty of valid criticisms about how the game is getting easier. That isn't a skill diff, characters are quite literally getting buffed without being gated and content isn't appropriating that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dextops said: The problem is that whether or not they’re right, many people will just ignore those posts because they refuse to show common decency or structure their post in a respectful way. This helps no one. It can cause actual constructive criticism to be buried and make it so people who are actually being constructive are less likely to be heard because the arguments from people made in bad faith give them a bad rep. For the traffic we normally see in this community, this happens very very rare if it does happen at all. This problem you (not you) are trying to solve is probably non-existent. As I have observed, there are several member who has great reading and writing skills that can always like and upvote hidden gems. You are touching community guidelines, I believe. We don’t have enough traffic to need a heavier moderation, I think. The current traffic about skill tree is mostly echo chamber which doesn’t have “bad rep” problems. And it will quiet down soon. in conclusion, there should be better constructive suggestions than “don’t post stuff like this” to community guideline. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, HowlVoid said: So where is this powercreep? You can spawn in with free perks on day 1 once you unlocked them, none of them has any drawbacks, I guess the survivors are just stronger now for no reason? You don't have to do anything to get those points either, even if you are dying all the time you still get free perks, but you didn't learn anything, still don't know how to progress... 1 hour ago, HowlVoid said: Where is this loss in the don't starve experience? Where is the easy game? Relax mode exist. You can turn off overheating, freezing and starvation caused deaths and the game already made a preset for you to select the easy mode. Why bother gathering food if you can't starve to death? In a game called Don't Starve, you can just... turn off starvation? That's just straight up against every survival mechanics in this game... And skill trees, like I just said, you get free perks without doing anything, you don't have to learn how to play to get those. 1 hour ago, HowlVoid said: Klei is making a fun game for many users just fine Klei is appealing a larger audience, not by improving the learning process(which currently is simply jump scare after jump scare), but making the game easier, or more compromising and less survival like. I'm fine with the game being more sandbox in the late game, but removing survival mechanics from the very beginning? Why would you do that in a survival game? This is not fine. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrimbles Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, HowlVoid said: People are still discovering the game as you once did. They don't fret over the "old game" because the game they are playing is THE GAME. Which is a hard concept for many of us to grasp, because what is the norm when it's all you've known? New people will literally open this game and go "oh cool it has skill trees", and be none the wiser we lost our s*it over it. Which in hindsight is ridiculously funny. And there are many more, heck some people still can't kill deerclops. So where is this powercreep? Where is this loss in the don't starve experience? Where is the easy game? Klei isn't "ignoring you", you are ignoring the whole world outside your bubble. Klei is making a fun game for many users just fine, if it's no longer fun for you that's fine. And if you are planning on leaving the game that is ok too. But don't poison my community on your way out. Don't feed lies on your way out. Don't sow narcism, deceit, contempt, scrutiny and an inflated ego on your way out. Having stepped away from the game and coming back on updates has really open my eyes to how much we attack Klei over our misgivings. And I know I do it too. This isn't just about people who hate skill trees, and making bad faith arguments. This is for everyone to hear. Because just because you're not having fun, doesn't mean everyone is like you. Heck the forums are probably a tiny speck on kleis radar and yet they do cater to us very often. Don't deny it, you know they do. This community is full of fun and creative folks, please let's not lose that. Let's not attack the idea, let's make it better. We are losing focus about what game development is about, let's make an enjoyable game. We have the experience, let's put it to good use. Eh? But YOU are pushing a narrative that because new players don't have the same issues that veteran players have, that means veteran players have no right to complain. Quote "So where is this powercreep?" It comes from every character being refreshed into being objectively stronger than their previous version, without care for balance. Quote "Where is this loss in the don't starve experience?" "Where is the easy game?" It comes from removing threats like heat in caves, or the Dragonfly as a regular giant, making characters easier, and buffing items. Quote "Klei isn't "ignoring you", you are ignoring the whole world outside your bubble. Klei is making a fun game for many users just fine, if it's no longer fun for you that's fine. " YOU are ignoring people like me who understand that people have differing opinions, and know that I am not entitled to anything, and simply wish that there was more of a balance instead of catering to new players all the time. Quote "But don't poison my community on your way out." "Don't feed lies on your way out." "Don't sow narcism, deceit, contempt, scrutiny and an inflated ego on your way out." Excuse me? "Poison" the community? You mean like you are doing by painting any critics as selfish liars who hate everyone else? Feed lies? What lies? It's the objective truth that the game has become easier across the board, whether you care about that kind of thing or not. Quote "narcism, deceit, contempt, scrutiny and an inflated ego" AGAIN you are painting critics in the worst possible light because YOU don't agree with them. You talk about "bad faith arguments" and YOU YOURSELF are pushing a narrative that is so fundamentally disconnected from the truth. Yes, I'm sure there are arrogant people who critique the game but it is JUST as arrogant to paint EVERYONE who is a critic as narcissistic, deceitful, compemptful, scrutinizing, and egotistical. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tour Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, _zwb said: You can spawn in with free perks on day 1 once you unlocked them, none of them has any drawbacks, I guess the survivors are just stronger now for no reason? You don't have to do anything to get those points either, even if you are dying all the time you still get free perks, but you didn't learn anything, still don't know how to progress... But isn't this a matter of perspective? every character spawns with free perks on day 1, but those free perks are diferent depending if you started playing before or after the update. The drawbacks of a character are tied to the characterr, not to a specific perk Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Mr. Tour said: every character spawns with free perks on day 1 The game is already balanced around those perks(and vice versa) but those new perks aren't, they just make the characters stronger but the game is not(untill you open rifts). Therefore the game is easier for characters with skill trees because the game's difficulty isn't designed with those new perks in mind. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cr4zyFl4mes Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I would recommend this video to compare the state of the forums now and back then. (to my surprise, it didn't change as much as it seems) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Tour Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, _zwb said: The game is already balanced around those perks(and vice versa) but those new perks aren't, they just make the characters stronger but the game is not(untill you open rifts). Therefore the game is easier for characters with skill trees because the game's difficulty isn't designed with those new perks in mind. but that is the issue, the game isn't balanced, at least not in that way. There is no timer, but you can time things on your own, and every character is gonna have a different time, there is no end goal, but there are "final" bosses that you don't have to fight, What is the mesure of balance here? IF a player started playing during the skill tree saga, and gets used to the skill trees, and one day, they decide to have the game as it use to be, that player is not gonna feel like the game is balanced now, he is just gonna feel that they nerfed a character Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrimbles Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 minutes ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said: I would recommend this video to compare the state of the forums now and back then. (to my surprise, it didn't change as much as it seems) The Klei devs actually partook in forum discussions back in the day. I wish we could get more of that, but with people like @SethRleaving, devs moving on to other projects like Griftlands, and with how much the forums have grown, I understand it's probably much more difficult, and frankly, volatile for the devs to sling their opinions around here. Even JoeW manages to be a controversial figure for some reason, despite literally only appearing to keep the peace and tell people to treat others with respect. Bless his soul. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/149283-heavily-disappointed-with-the-narrative-some-people-are-trying-to-push/#findComment-1648731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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