Szczuku Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Skill trees, really? Remember Webber's rework, when Klei had a brief flash of interesting recipe acquisition? How Webber needs to befriend a spider to be able to craft its respective switcherdoodle? I am certain that one of Webber's skill tree points will allow him to craft doodles without the need to befriend their spiders. Now that I think of this, I'm sure that Wanda's tree will allow her to live to an older age, Wigfrid's will allow her to craft leafy meat with, like, carrots and berries. Because removing challenges and character downsides is apparently what good development is known for. Here's an example of how Wormwood's affinity could've been handled: -When Alter's awake Wormwood gains 5 planar defence -Brightshades have lower agro range -After killing a brigthshade Wormwood unlocks a new crafting recipe- an upgrade for his bramble husk that makes it function the same as his new lunar guardian perk. Like... there are ways of integrading these skill tree's perks and choices into the main gameplay. Why make Wilson's 'rework' so generic, why ruin one of the main pillars of don't starve's uniqueness? This is not an interesting, or good for that matter, way of creating the alignment system because you don't even have to put any points into the lunar/shadow perks. When the 'pick a side' thing was announced I was expecting something more fleshed out and impactful. But, like the title states, it seems that Klei has just ran out of creativity and will continue to go down the path of least resistance, making dst more and more generic. And to the 'funny' forumites, that thrive on mocking people like me: feel free to follow me, as it seems like you'll be eating good for the next couple months. Because I am bitter now. Like someone has said in the update thread: There was a time when people would fiercely argue against these type of changes. But these people are gone, we don't care anymore. Because Klei has proven time and time againt that they don't listen to criticism, so why bother trying to make a change, via text posts on a forum. They might listen to an idea or feedback, but not criticism. Back in the last beta, Klei DID listen to the idea of aoe umbralla and protection pillar; and they DID listen to the general negative feedback regarding the acid rain and eartquake boulders. But they DID NOT listen to the criticism. They only heard 'We don't like these mechanics...', they didn't hear the '...because they are bad at their core, here's what would be better:' After over 4 years of 'improve the world, make it more immersive, expand the seasons, add new stuff to them/the world after an in-game year' feedback and suggestions being ignored, I no longer care to try and justify my opinion and argue with forumites. Especially since a bunch of them, upon being presented with an argument, will hit you with a 'I don't agree and think you are wrong' worded in a way to sound smart. I am bitter and will gladly continue to be here, make memes, write ideas and feedback. And wait, as more and more people will inevitably get tired of dst changing and start complaining. These changes are so uninspired and could've been integrated into the gameplay, instead being this... this... mod-looking interface, which plays at the 'Oh, this is a very important choice you have to make, you won't be able to reset them' as if some branches weren't completely pointless and you couldn't switch your character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NNOUS Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 8 minutes ago, Szczuku said: I am certain that one of Webber's skill tree points will allow him to craft doodles without the need to befriend their spiders. Now that I think of this, I'm sure that Wanda's tree will allow her to live to an older age, Wigfrid's will allow her to craft leafy meat with, like, carrots and berries. Because removing challenges and character downsides is apparently what good development is known for. I disagree. i dont believe dev team would this stupid to change their core fuction. 9 minutes ago, Szczuku said: killing a brigthshade Wormwood unlocks a new crafting recipe- an upgrade for his bramble husk that makes it function the same as his new lunar guardian perk. that would be very interesting idea. Criticism is valueable when they are constructive. If you think that's a bad implementation, you better explame why its bad, not just blabbling its bad and garbage update. that wont help but color the forum even stinker then before. no one need to brainly filter out 10 trashtalks and found only 1 valueable idea. For me i deem half of this post is worthless to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-met Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 maybe have every character skill tree reset per world except Wilson's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassielu Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 3 hours ago, NNOUS said: I disagree. i dont believe dev team would this stupid to change their core fuction. They once scrambled in a update what they had just added in the last update. They once made a series of updates at a time when players were complaining that the characters were severely unbalanced, which ended up making the characters even more unbalanced. They once added a new item that gives players free access to places where they used to store development junk that players wasn't touch, without any clear. I could easily make a list of at least 100 lines to tell you how many of these things they've done. Trust me, they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrocator Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 I hope you keep criticizing/critiquing. Not because I agree with you but because the game needs people who care, like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milordo Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 6 hours ago, NNOUS said: I disagree. i dont believe dev team would this stupid to change their core fuction. Not only what @Cassielu said but you really say this after a patch that approved they will introduce awful skill trees to everyone? And think they will never do free doodles, longer older age and craftable leafy meat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BezKa Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 I brought it up a second ago, but I'm gonna use it as an example more- consider how archives give you new blueprints. This is the kind of creativity I expected from Klei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 7 hours ago, Szczuku said: Like someone has said in the update thread: There was a time when people would fiercely argue against these type of changes. But these people are gone Anyone looking for proof of this look back at the reaction to Winionas catapults introduction and now she's considered one of the characters who needs brought up to speed with the rest of the cast. Edit: for additional context even the devs were discussing balance with the players during the Winona and Willow refreshes when they had a different mindset concerning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 6 hours ago, NNOUS said: I disagree. i dont believe dev team would this stupid to change their core fuction. They literally added perks to remove the gym minigame, remove transforming from a full moon, and remove the penalties for transforming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetulantPansy Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 7 hours ago, Szczuku said: Skill trees, really? This is not an interesting, or good for that matter, way of creating the alignment system because you don't even have to put any points into the lunar/shadow perks. When the 'pick a side' thing was announced I was expecting something more fleshed out and impactful. But, like the title states, it seems that Klei has just ran out of creativity and will continue to go down the path of least resistance, making dst more and more generic. Your criticism of the direction of the game is understandable, but the reality is that you're in the minority. Klei can't satisfy the needs/demands of everyone. In a democracy, if the majority of the people support the "wrong" choice, the "wrong" choice will be the course of action. That's not to say that wrong decisions have been made by Klei. The game has moved further and further away from the hardcore survival aspects, and catered more to megabasers who aren't allowed to die or face base destruction. It is the megabasers who keep the game alive and interact with all the content the game has to offer. Not the speedrunner who leaves the world after 25 days. Game balance/"rules" matter far more for the latter than for the megabaser since almost everything in DST can be overcome with time. You can keep arguing but this reality wont change. As far as your criticism of the creativity of Klei, I think this is fine. Some characters (especially woodie, walter, winona, willow) could use a touch up to keep up with the latest "OP" survivor trends. A key issue with adding content to DST is the need to balance things out for new and seasoned players. In addition, DST is limited by the "physical space" the constant has access to. So far, their implementation of the new challenging content is brilliant but that's just me. 7 hours ago, Szczuku said: I am certain that one of Webber's skill tree points will allow him to craft doodles without the need to befriend their spiders. Now that I think of this, I'm sure that Wanda's tree will allow her to live to an older age, Wigfrid's will allow her to craft leafy meat with, like, carrots and berries. Because removing challenges and character downsides is apparently what good development is known for. Character downsides aren't real anymore. No one seriously considers survivor downsides when picking a survivor. It's all about what the survivor has to offer to the player. The downsides you refer to are just minor annoyances that dont interfere materially with gameplay. Removing them for good through a skill tree is more like a QoL improvement vs a fundamental gamebreaking change at this point. Of course, Klei acts within reason so these changes likely wont be too egregious. Again, your criticism is fair but when taken into context, it's not as bad as you make it sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhh2 Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Business destroys art and creativity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosuko Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 I am not particularly thrilled about the skill trees, but as the re-works wrapped up it was clear that some second touches were needed and between leaving characters as they are vs touching them up by adding a skill tree and letting players pick their fixes, I'll take the skill trees. For most characters there will at least be a single "definitive" tree that completes the character, hopefully we'll have a few with different valid options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hupo Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 I think Klei do listen to criticism. Sometimes Klei just don't listen to YOUR criticism. They can not listen to everyone. For example, Wigfrid's helm skin. Klei don't listen to me. I don't think it's unfair. I hope you can enjoy the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouKnowWho Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 This thread doesn't actually say anything about why skill trees are bad and makes a lot of assumptions in bad faith. It doesn't mean you're wrong to think how you do, but do keep it in mind when you're complaining about people not engaging with your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarbageCabbage Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 There is more outcry from newcomers willing to drop the game at the two hour mark which is why we get things like skill trees to make the game easier; to encourage them to stay and grind. At this point I'm convinced most of the players who are still here for the uncompromising survival aspect only stick around for the lore hence why we have the alignments. Don't Starve staying as a niche title doesn't rake in cash so of course Klei is going to pander to the general crowd. On 7/8/2023 at 5:17 AM, hhh2 said: Business destroys art and creativity. Basically this. With a large playerbase, they're committed to pumping out updates on a strict time limit (if you take their other games into consideration) leaving certain aspects of the game unpolished like ocean content even to this day. If the masses don't know what made Don't Starve unique in the first place outside of its aesthetics then I don't think Klei will be willing to listen to people like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuffles Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 This game has truly gone downhill over the past few years, so unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelo Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 On 7/7/2023 at 2:13 AM, Szczuku said: These changes are so uninspired and could've been integrated into the gameplay, instead being this... this... mod-looking interface, which plays at the 'Oh, this is a very important choice you have to make, you won't be able to reset them' as if some branches weren't completely pointless and you couldn't switch your character. This here is my entire reason I think for disliking the skill trees. (Well outside of some of the skills themselves) Why give us a choice if we can revert our choice at any time for minimal cost? It reminds me of my days playing WoW when you are socially required to optimize for the situation. Even if it isn't what you wanted to do. It boils down to "Optimizing the fun out of the game" and giving players a choice and forcing them to stick with it (for that server/world) I think is the best path. I don't like the skill trees but I can grow to accept it if they make the choice actually matter. As it stands, they don't actually matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolographGUSlo Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 It doesn't make sense, that in ”Not compromising survival game” you can turn off downsides of characters. Also in my opinion skill trees more suits RPG’king games than ”Not compromising survival game”, which is how game is advertised. There are lot of ways to inplement characters progression with world’s progression. While right now I would upgrade my character with just one comand in console. It seems to me, game is taking lazy route instead of creative and ”traditional”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatt Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 I feel you mate, but don't feel discouraged. Your emotions make sense, but they don't need to lead to giving up on anything. Because I see the value in your opinions and arguments. You are not in control of the development, but only in your opinions and in their value, and I see them. Separate the fun of playing the game from your expectation of the game development. I think the game is still pretty fun despite heading towards some places that I personally am not very fond of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolographGUSlo Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Yeah, there still will be modes that make the game harder or changing skill trees etc.. So hope is always there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dextops Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 10 hours ago, GolographGUSlo said: It doesn't make sense, that in ”Not compromising survival game” you can turn off downsides of characters. In my opinion there is a big difference between a good downside and a bad downside. Woodies downside during moon storms is horrible and I hadn’t seen anyone defend it before this update. It makes playing him needlessly annoying and I’m glad it got some change. The same thing can be applied to other downsides removed from woodies skill treee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomato Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 18 minutes ago, Dextops said: In my opinion there is a big difference between a good downside and a bad downside. In my opinion there is a big difference between having a downside and not having a downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 22 minutes ago, Dextops said: In my opinion there is a big difference between a good downside and a bad downside. Woodies downside during moon storms is horrible and I hadn’t seen anyone defend it before this update. It makes playing him needlessly annoying and I’m glad it got some change. The same thing can be applied to other downsides removed from woodies skill treee. Not against this but we both know this is gonna lead to some serious controversy down the line when we get to a certain boy scout and chef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginosaji Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, The Box said: In my opinion there is a big difference between having a downside and not having a downside. Wickerbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysterious box Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 Just now, Ginosaji said: Wickerbottom Blasphemy her downside is that she only exists to make Maxwell stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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