This Game Needs Change.

[Theukon-dos]

Over the last few years, many of Don't Starve Together's updates have faced some controversy, in some way, shape, or form. There has been some variety as for why. But a major reason that was thrown around a lot; especially during the "Return of Them" update chain is that the updates "Didn't really go anywhere" or that the content introduced "Didn't matter", just to paraphrase. But why is that? How could so many updates be considered so consequential. 

 

Well, after months of pondering and discussion with others, I think I finally figured out just what the problem is. To put simply, DST just doesn't have the room for any more big content updates.

 

Now, that is a bold claim to make, I do admit. "How can there be no room for updates? We definitely got them, no?" you may be asking. So allow me to explain myself.

 

DST, like many games, is ultimately about "problems" and "Solutions". You encounter an obstacle, you find a way around it. Light is the solution to the problem of Dark, food is the solution to the problem of starvation, insulation is the solution to the problem of cold, ect. ect. 

But, this means that there can only be so many solutions to a single problem. There can certainly be multiple solutions per problem, but there are only so many ways that you can stave off cold or hunger. And this, dear reader, is where the problem lies. Almost every problem in the game already has solutions, and very good ones at that. Meaning that anything else added needs to fall into 1 of 4 options.

1. Solve an already solved problem

2. Find a niche that somehow hasn't been filled yet and do so.

3. Be a straight upgrade to already existing solutions.

4. Have new problems to solve. 

Now, to go through all these options:

 

Option 1 is the simplest, but I'd argue also has the highest likelihood to fall flat. Side grades can definitely work, and have been done before; as seen with salt boxes and above-average trees. But a side-grade is just that. A side grade. It's generally considered equal to whatever it's other is, and thus can be pretty easily ignored. Especially when the effort between the two options is vastly different despite their similar power levels *glares at salt box*.

 

Option 2 is a bit harder, but doable and usually has better results. As I said, most problems on the mainland already have solutions. But someone looking close enough might be able to find something that could still use one. As an example, one of my favorite mods on the workshop is Unlockable Sunken Chest. As the name suggests, it lets you open chests up without smashing them open, and doing so allows you to use it as a 15 slot inventory that's treated as a heavy object. It's a simple change, but gives the sunken chest; an item often bemoaned for its miserable loot pool; into an item with genuine utility and value. In a Wanda world of mine a while back, not only did I use the sunken chests as bulk storage for both unstackable items and/or items I had way too much of, but being able to use a purple gem to warp them to my base meant they were also great for things like ruins loot, or any other instance I had to bulk-transport items. 

 

Option 3 is effective, but could very easily lead to power creep if left unchecked. If an item wants to fill the same niche and solve the same problem as another, then an effective way to do that is to simply be the better option. If you don't mind me using another mod as an example, Uncompromising Mode buffs the Waterfowl Can to function as a hand-held, 4-slot tin fishin' bin. Able to hold ocean fish and restore their freshness. While this may seem interesting but insignificant at first glance, this has a very potent interaction with Ice Breams and Scorching Sunfish where the player can easily keep a handful of them on-hand while constantly swapping them in and out of the waterfowl Can to maintain their temperature. Thus, the player can completely ignore the temperature effects of winter and summer with only 2 item slots. No insulation or thermal stone necessary. Again though, this option can cause a lot of potential power creep if left unchecked. Add one uber-powerful item, and suddenly you'll start feeling pressured to match or even outdo that. It's a slippery slope that must be treaded carefully.

 

Option 4... is where things get complicated. Because you see, Klei has added new problems for the solutions to solve, but they're always completely optional and self-serving. Many items on the ocean help deal with problems on the ocean. Which may sound fine at first, but then you realize. If the main reward for dealing with the ocean is an easier time dealing with the ocean... then why interact with the ocean at all?

And we're seeing this again with the rifts now. Planar Damage already served as a hard-gate without actually adding much for post-rift enemies. But the new Beta introduces shadow rifts, with one of the main rewards for these rifts being an umbralla... which protects against acid rain... which only starts once you open the shadow rift. 

 

And maybe this could work if the content wasn't optional. If Acid Rain was an inevitability in the caves, then a high-tier umbrella to protect against it would be pretty handy. But as said earlier, it's only optional. Aggressively optional even. If you do the entirety of the quest lines and kill CC and/or Ancient Fuel Weaver, you're still just given the option to open the rifts instead of it happening automatically. 

 

And this brings me back to the thesis statement of this post. Don't Starve Together doesn't have room for all these updates because all the space had been taken up beforehand. But what do you do when you're out of space? You make more. I'd say grab an axe, hack the game into pieces, and glue them all back together with the last 4 years worth of updates.

Many of you might think this to a massive over reaction. And it may be, to some extent. But here's the thing, it's already happened before. And to great success on top of that. But when, exactly, did this all happen? Well, let's take a moment to look back on the greatest update Don't Starve ever received: 

Unlike the latter DLCs Shipwrecked and Hamlet; which tried to alter the base Don't Starve gameplay with entirely new settings and mechanics, Reign of Giants instead completely overhauled the game we already had. New seasons, new mechanics like overheating and wetness, new biomes, items, weapons, characters ect. ect. ect.

And I'll be honest? If this update released today, it would have painted the forums red. But it didn't release today, it released in 2014. And what happened then? It quickly became the definitive way to play Don't Starve. All the later DLCs used it as a baseline, it's baked into Don't Starve Together by default. Even the devs themselves once forgot that RoG wasn't the baseline. When Wagstaff was released as the final character for base Don't Starve, his custom crafts required Electrical Doodads, which weren't introduced until RoG. (The still do, and now he can craft those in the base game. but I digress). 

 

And this is why I think the game needs change. Another Reign of Giants, if you will. The problems that the player can't simply ignore, and solutions in the places that are currently completely optional. Would it be controversial? Yes, certainly. But it can't be any worse than the last few years worth of updates have been. 

[Fatkitty]

Uhhh... Not sure that any of that is worth reading, so I didn't read it.

What other game can you think of that has evolved along with the fanbase as much as this game? If you suggested "change" to some company like Blizzard or EA, it would fall of deaf ears. It seems that every month someone comes out here with their idea of what they think the game should be. Why does that only happen with DST? How about we go try and redesign the Tamagotchi? Why not petition Valve to rework the original Half-Life because you think that it should have a DLC where you can race ice cream trucks? 

It sounds like you're complaining about not having enough icing on your cake.

[finn from human]

I realize that saying this isn't conducive to a good conversation, but, I must be honest here: I can never take such a bold claim like "the entire past x years of content are bad" seriously whenever I've been hearing it since 2016 and it updates every few years to be about whatever was added most recently. In 2016 it was that DS was really good and DST as a whole was bad, then that DST was really good and Shipwrecked was bad, then that Shipwrecked was good and ANR was bad, then that ANR was really really good and that RoT was bad... I just can't find myself convinced by statements about how the past few years of content were bad whenever I've seen this about whatever the "past few years" were for coming up on a decade of my life now.

[astroapyr]

32 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

And maybe this could work if the content wasn't optional. If Acid Rain was an inevitability in the caves, then a high-tier umbrella to protect against it would be pretty handy. But as said earlier, it's only optional. Aggressively optional even. If you do the entirety of the quest lines and kill CC and/or Ancient Fuel Weaver, you're still just given the option to open the rifts instead of it happening automatically. 

I like how this sounds, my main concern are those that just don't want to deal with deadly brightshades or acid rain, but we are talking about players that managed to kill one or two of the three hardest bosses in the game to get there and we can consider that they got their drops as a reward, so of course they can handle those little inconvenients specially with the new crafts.

Release the rifts without asking I say, because their optionality is what is making some doubt if the content is worth the problem and that's something understandable. If we were asked years ago before RoG if we wanted to deal with wetness and heat we maybe would have said "NO!" but it just happened and here we are, dealing with heat and wetness as a minor inconvenience.

Another good part of just triggering the rifts without asking is that it isn't anymore a choice of those that defeated the bosses, it's content that opens for every player that is brave enough to fight the blights/brightshades, doesn't matter when they got in the server. This is a problem with the boss fights because, rightfully, only those that were present receive the reward, but with rift everyone can share the victory even if those that fought for it got the best gear.

[Szczuku]

48 minutes ago, Fatkitty said:

Not sure that any of that is worth reading, so I didn't read it.

Nothing better than not reading the op and then trying to ridicule its author, ay?

[nimzowitsch10]

I think a new RoG style update would takes several years for klei devs and I don't think none of the devs are particularly too invested with the game anymore judging by recent updates. the updates are going to go wherever the devs want it to go which is a direction alot of people are not fond of but what can we as the fans do, not much.

I've posted about pub server problems frequently for a couple years now and the one thing i've learned is klei devs do not care lol. They have gone full EA, Blizzard, Riot after they got acquired by tencent.

[firoborn]

1 hour ago, Fatkitty said:

Uhhh... Not sure that any of that is worth reading, so I didn't read it.

What other game can you think of that has evolved along with the fanbase as much as this game? 

League of legends, dota, WoW etc if you wanna go indie we have terraria y Stardew valley and they don't have microtransactions

[Catteflyterpill]

4 hours ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

I think a new RoG style update would takes several years for klei devs and I don't think none of the devs are particularly too invested with the game anymore judging by recent updates. the updates are going to go wherever the devs want it to go which is a direction alot of people are not fond of but what can we as the fans do, not much.

I've posted about pub server problems frequently for a couple years now and the one thing i've learned is klei devs do not care lol. They have gone full EA, Blizzard, Riot after they got acquired by tencent.

For all the criticisms you could apply to the devs, "not caring" is definitely one of the most ill-fitting. For all the time they put into the game and community, it's pretty obvious they're passionate about the project.

[nimzowitsch10]

@CatteflyterpillYes you're probably right and I was rude for saying they don't care. I guess i'm still salty that after 2 years they have not given a response to none of my posts concerning klei servers

[Guille6785]

I disagree with you so I will laugh react you

[Theukon-dos]

10 hours ago, sylvia wander o said:

I realize that saying this isn't conducive to a good conversation, but, I must be honest here: I can never take such a bold claim like "the entire past x years of content are bad" seriously whenever I've been hearing it since 2016 and it updates every few years to be about whatever was added most recently. In 2016 it was that DS was really good and DST as a whole was bad, then that DST was really good and Shipwrecked was bad, then that Shipwrecked was good and ANR was bad, then that ANR was really really good and that RoT was bad... I just can't find myself convinced by statements about how the past few years of content were bad whenever I've seen this about whatever the "past few years" were for coming up on a decade of my life now.

You know what? That's fair.

 

That being said though, I don't really consider Return of Them to be "Bad" per se. Just not worth the trouble. I do like the act of sailing in and of itself, so it definitely has potential there. 

[Cassielu]

I totally agree with you, but I think the situation is more optimistic than you describe, and more professional developers and designers obviously wouldn't be unaware of such a simple problem. So they created From Beyond arc. Rift Cycle is the kind of change you're asking for, as content continues to be added, it will become something similar to the hardmode in Terraria. Players will have more needs in this "upgraded" world to confronting new threats.

They just need FOCUS ON IT, don't throw it away as they have done in the past few years.

 

[Mysterious box]

Poor Kiel some people don't like some of the updates and they get a bunch of people saying they don't care despite how many changes made over the course of return of them to now geared specifically to pleasing the community guess listening to a lot of community requests is a sign of losing passion or investment in the game.

 

20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

 

That aside I get where your coming from and I was bringing something similar up awhile back the game isn't allowed to change too much fundamentally because the community at large is set on what the game is now. There's a big divide in how people enjoy the game with many thinking one playstyle is better than the other and a set mindset on how dst should be whether it be a mega basing sim, place to hang out, boss rush gauntlet, some crazy amalgamation of things making your base explode, survival game, sandbox, etc.

Regardless of the path Kiel takes the community at large is going to hate it because they're used to what's here now and the current standard which in some ways does mean maybe dst is too far gone for updates but I think another solution as unpopular as it would probably be to enforce widespread nerfs to mechanics across the board and the unlock requirements of weapons and armors whether or not we could do that in dst or we need a dst 2 for it is another story however.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m a bit disheartened the direction this franchise is steadily headed in. When I first got into DS & it’s respective DLCs I loved what it was, I loved the challenges it provided.. I really enjoyed the characters, the mobs, the worlds.. and the promise of exploring randomly generated worlds full of things that hate me and want me to die.

Today- The game has become a confusing mess of impossible to figure out puzzles without looking them up online, completely hidden and obscurely buried gameplay mechanics & content, questionable game design, it’s all starting to hit me right in the feels.

I love the DS franchise, I love what DS, SW, Hamlet was- but I’m starting to slowly but surely wish DST never existed..

the way they add new content, then go out of their way to avoid letting that content interact with the player or their survival takes a complete 180 degree turn from “Exploring randomly generated worlds full of things that hate you & want you to die”

Im not asking for peoples bases to be completely obliterated unfairly and unpreventable, but would it kill you guys to add some new weather mechanics or dangers we need to work with or against?? Would it kill you to add some actual hostile mobs that I DON’T have to use a flare to summon?

Hopefully Klei eventually decides what they want the Dont starve franchise to actually be, and they stick to their roots.. until then I’ll just continue to watch as every update releases & players are expected to just have fate it’ll all make sense in the long-haul.

For now, I’m just very doubtful.. I guess.

[kevindaze]

I don't really think this game need change, not even need to change their way of adding new content.

Each update is fun and challenging to me tbh, causing me to face those new challenges even I've played this game for over 1000hrs.

Not to mention that dst community are those rare one which keep growing, unlike most of the old game. If u r curious, u can check their steam chart, and u'll find out that it's daily player count grew from 6800 players peak per day to almost 50000 player peak per day.

I feel like this means most of the players are fine with what klei are doing, and tbh for me they are doing some really good jobs.

[Silver76]

The world needs to be expanded with different biomes, have they scaled up to 64 bit yet?   I can explore it all in 9-10 days, then only the sea remains.    

[Paxtonnnn]

On 6/6/2023 at 1:46 PM, nimzowitsch10 said:

They have gone full EA, Blizzard, Riot after they got acquired by tencent.

this is the funniest thing I've read on the forums all day thank you

[Notecja]

It's right now these updates are rough and raw. A bit like step from smooth road into rocky cobblestone... but I cannot say all updates are bad, or they are fully bad, just because those have some loose screws. Well, I am going to be a bit disappointed if they leave those screws loose in current arc, yet so far I am hopeful. I want more content. I want new challenges and good rewards. From their newest arc I love idea of sets... and I hope they develop it further. 

[gamehun20]

6 hours ago, Silver76 said:

The world needs to be expanded with different biomes, have they scaled up to 64 bit yet?   I can explore it all in 9-10 days, then only the sea remains.    

The game was changed to be able to run in 64 bits some where near like moon quay or return of them

[Gnosis]

On 6/6/2023 at 12:28 PM, Fatkitty said:

If you suggested "change" to some company like Blizzard or EA, it would fall of deaf ears. It seems that every month someone comes out here with their idea of what they think the game should be. Why does that only happen with DST?

I assure you that it does not. But this is the only place you regularly see such things because unlike Blizzard or EA, Klei has gone out of their way to make choices and do things specifically for the their community (and not for some other reason) on multiple occasions. So very fact that we still see these ideas on the forums is itself a positive symptom in my opinion.

 

On 6/6/2023 at 11:15 PM, Theukon-dos said:

That being said though, I don't really consider Return of Them to be "Bad" per se. Just not worth the trouble. I do like the act of sailing in and of itself, so it definitely has potential there.

I think the main issue with this post is its narrow assessment of what Don't Starve Together is as a game and by extrapolation from that assumption what constitutes as "good". In other words, I think one merely needs to consider the fact that DST has a far broader and varied appeal to its playerbase than simply being "an uncompromising wilderness survival game" (as would have been the claim originally).

There are many players who enjoy creative building among other aspects of the game, and striking a balance between the original promise of being "uncompromising" and quality of life (or features just for the sake of being interesting), which improves the experience of enjoying these many other things that can be done in the game is a common thread that runs through games like Terraria. Usually finding that balance, is unironically and unsurprisingly, I would argue, a far more balanced approach to game design.

 

Here, I'll give my best shot at making a narrow claim of why I think Don't Starve Together is a good game:

To me, using Bearger as a tree-farming machine is highly enjoyable.

Furthermore, Bearger's honey-eating animation is extremely adorable and Bearger's dying animation is peak comedy.

So by my assessment, Don't Starve has been a good game ever since Bearger was added. 

Every time you want to make an argument for why recent updates are "bad", just refer back to this argument since there's probably a Klei dev who shares my opinion.

Thank you folks, I rest my case.

[Maxposting]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:46 PM, nimzowitsch10 said:

They have gone full EA, Blizzard, Riot after they got acquired by tencent.

what did you even mean by this

[nimzowitsch10]

@MaxpostingI was typing out of salt but I was implying that they got a multi billion dollar corporation behind them so they don't gotta care as much anymore about the game. The update quality has gone down ever since their acquisition in my opinion, but I still do love the game. 

[Fatkitty]

On 6/6/2023 at 11:18 AM, firoborn said:

League of legends, dota, WoW etc if you wanna go indie we have terraria y Stardew valley and they don't have microtransactions

I'm not sure how much of this direct fan based input, and even then you have a handful of games. I have never played league of legends or dota, but I have the biggest doubt that the WoW franchise catered to direct input from fans. I have played Diablo 2 and Diablo 2 Resurrected, and when problems happen in those games, guess what, you're SOL. I just had half of my inventory disappear which was a common issue with D2R and Blizzard's response? Tough sh*t. The legacy version of D2 was overrun by rune words that made character development a one way street and rendered many of the sought after high level unique items useless. Fans complained and nothing ever came of it.  There were never any devs or moderators taking and applying as much feedback as Klei has by Blizzard. Not even close. 

You're making an apples to oranges comparison at best. 

On 6/8/2023 at 11:49 PM, Gnosis said:

I assure you that it does not. But this is the only place you regularly see such things because unlike Blizzard or EA, Klei has gone out of their way to make choices and do things specifically for the their community (and not for some other reason) on multiple occasions. So very fact that we still see these ideas on the forums is itself a positive symptom in my opinion.

 

 

Maybe your experience. I know that the Battlefield franchise after Battlefield 4 has left fans disappointed. Had EA listened to fans, Battlefield 5 would not have ended abruptly and the way that it did, and we would not have this abomination called Battlefield 2042. Same thing with Blizzard. Diablo 3 was a notorious turd amongst Diablo players. The game just lacked nearly everything that the Diablo franchise was known for. Fans complained, and they made it worse. I can go on and on with examples of how fan input is ignored by devs, but you can only find a handful of examples where devs are active and engaged with the community. 

[Antynomity]

I just don't like how nearly all of the updates that we've got after RoT has started have been mostly optional side quests, the ocean is placed on top of the base game not intertwined with it, it's been 4 years and yet still we have to circle around the mainland or build a separate boat to go from one side to the other of the ocean, the mainland has all resources you'd ever need to survive and you need the mainland to make a boat in the first place yet alone deck it out to nearly maximum potential, the ocean generation is also something that I just don't get, why is it just a blue surface filled with small setpieces instead of the surface being made of bigger biomes? I really hope a lot of rebalancing will be done in the future though I just don't see it coming like... ever.

And it's not like the updates have been bad, they just aren't really connected to the 'base game' or whatever you want to call the mainland.

Like yeah of course there have been some missed marks in some updates but for the most part they have been pretty creative and fun, once again though, disconnected.

[Gnosis]

6 hours ago, Fatkitty said:

Maybe your experience.

When I post or respond to anything, there is about an 80% chance or greater that what I write is interpreted to be the opposite of what I wrote.

On 6/9/2023 at 2:49 AM, Gnosis said:

unlike Blizzard or EA, Klei has gone out of their way

But hey, who am I to expect people on the internet to actually read.