Did Maxwell's Rework Land At Perfect Balance?

[Dr. Safety]

I don't know how many will see this now that there isn't an active beta, but for those who are still here, how do you think the Maxwell rework turned out.

Personally, I haven't gotten to late game with a large group of people yet, but I have in solo play and I have to say I really like where Maxwell is now. He's a lot of fun and has amazing utilities 

[Gashzer]

He is overpowered now, no debate, but thats ok cause more importantly Maxwell is fun! 

I hope all the older reworked characters get revised an also become op and fun.

 

[MadMatt]

I think he's balanced depending on who you compare him to, but he has a good mix between being hard to utilize and strong I'd say.

[-Variant]

Perfectly balanced.
As all good things ought to be.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m a bit upset about a few things- mainly not being able to prison an enemy mob and then convert them with shadow sneak, which is Dumb.. because you can Shadow Sneak and Then prison… but NOT Vice Versa.

Also I don’t know if it’s a glitch or not but on the Xbox One version of the game Maxwells Shadows no longer look like shadows, they instead look like duplicates of him (even copies the clothing your wearing!) this is freaking awesome… plus don’t change this back! 
Just a tiny bit disappointed shadow sneak can not immediately convert chester to shadow version, but I can over look this.

What I’m most sad about is that console players finally got a QOL to aim and cast AOE effects, but… I’m not sure if this ONLY applies to Maxwell or if other equally in need of patching items got this love too (Aka Wickerbottoms annoying On Tentacles spell..) 

[King Maxwell]

20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m a bit upset about a few things- mainly not being able to prison an enemy mob and then convert them with shadow sneak, which is Dumb.. because you can Shadow Sneak and Then prison… but NOT Vice Versa.

You can trap and use shadow sneak, just put it on the side of the cage, use it constantly to trap 3 rabbits and turn them at the beginning of the game into extra nightmare fuel.

[Mysterious box]

Personally I'd place him in the range of Wolfgang and Wanda which is ok for what the current dst is going for.

[Guille6785]

I don't think he's overpowered but I feel like he has too little depth

[chirsg]

I like his new chest. Now let's end this discussion.
Sage

[ArubaroBeefalo]

he is strong which is how he is suppose to be as a glass cannon character. Also is really fun and the gameplay isnt just holding F, you need to think and time to get the best performance 

maybe in a future they add more spells because is a fun thing to explore. And i love how mobs aggro on Maxwell when they are hit by duelists, you need to pay attention 

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

he is strong which is how he is suppose to be as a glass cannon character. Also is really fun and the gameplay isnt just holding F, you need to think and time to get the best performance 

maybe in a future they add more spells because is a fun thing to explore. And i love how mobs aggro on Maxwell when they are hit by duelists, you need to pay attention 

I do not like how mobs aggro onto Maxwell, there’s no way in heck any mob in the constant (extra especially bees!) are intelligent enough to know which Maxwell duplicate to attack to hit the real one.

There should’ve been a few mobs that would become dumbfounded by having 1-6 duplicates of yourself running around.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I do not like how mobs aggro onto Maxwell, there’s no way in heck any mob in the constant (extra especially bees!) are intelligent enough to know which Maxwell duplicate to attack to hit the real one.

There should’ve been a few mobs that would become dumbfounded by having 1-6 duplicates of yourself running around.

fun>realism

is unique, if someone wants to throw mobs at enemies they have wurt

[Mysterious box]

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I do not like how mobs aggro onto Maxwell, there’s no way in heck any mob in the constant (extra especially bees!) are intelligent enough to know which Maxwell duplicate to attack to hit the real one.

There should’ve been a few mobs that would become dumbfounded by having 1-6 duplicates of yourself running around.

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence they hit old guy he fades away they repeat this still one doesn't fade away and proceed to kill it in their minds they probably thought they killed the other ones sometimes ignorance can lead to success. (and I'm reading too deeply into this)

That aside his followers not really pulling aggro is a godsend for teamplay.

[Well-met]

If he's too powerful then I'd say at least it fits with lore, being the previous antagonist it makes sense he would be one of the stronger survivors.

[Dictator]

Wickerbottom has 10 times more utility. I don't get people saying he is op while wickerbottom exists. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

I'm just surprised Maxwell didn't get another downside

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I'm just surprised Maxwell didn't get another downside

i think is fine, is kinda like woodie, the perk brings downsides. If you wanna use max spells you need to affort the sanity cost by farming food or dealing with shadows

Isnt free like other character's perks like wolf or wigfrid

[Cheggf]

9 hours ago, Dictator said:

Wickerbottom has 10 times more utility. I don't get people saying he is op while wickerbottom exists. 

Wickerbottom has 10x more expensive parlor tricks maybe, but even if you overvalue those Maxwell can do everything Wickerbottom can. 

[Wonz]

Why question is "are you satisfied" but instead of answers being "yes" or "no" answers sound like question would be "What do you think is Maxwell's spot in current meta?" or "How powerful is maxwell?"

[Dictator]

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wickerbottom has 10x more expensive parlor tricks maybe, but even if you overvalue those Maxwell can do everything Wickerbottom can. 

They may be a bit more expensive, but once they are made they are nearly infinite since the books regenerate and you can maintain multiple copies. Everything Maxwell can do is gather and attack, Wickerbottom can generate multiple resources from out of nothing, and more. Calling them parlor tricks is just downplaying her to make maxwell seem op.

 

 

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Dictator said:

They may be a bit more expensive, but once they are made they are nearly infinite since the books regenerate and you can maintain multiple copies. Everything Maxwell can do is gather and attack, Wickerbottom can generate multiple resources from out of nothing, and more. Calling them parlor tricks is just downplaying her to make maxwell seem op.

 

 

If everything Maxwell can do is "gather and attack" then everything Wickerbottom can do is gather lol

[Dictator]

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

If everything Maxwell can do is "gather and attack" then everything Wickerbottom can do is gather lol

He has:
Clones that attack
Clones that gather resources
Spell that locks enemies
Spell that fears enemies

Wickerbottom has:
Horticulture, Abridged and Expanded; Speeds up farming of food by a lot.
Applied Silviculture; Infinite grass tufts and saplings, can also calm down tree guards.
The Angler's Survival Guide; spawns fish out of nothing, free food.
Pyrokinetics Explained; Gets rid of smoldering and fire AND gives her a fire staff.
Overcoming Arachnophobia; creates web that slows enemies down for 2 minutes.
Lux Aeterna and Lux Aeterna Redux; Free light for boss fights and FARMING AT NIGHT.
Practical Rain Rituals; Can get rid or start rain AT WILL.
Lunar Grimoire; Can make all nights be full moon nights with a few copies.
Apicultural Notes; Can get bees that fight for you.
The Everything Encyclopedia; Free tier 1 science machine for everyone on the team when exploring.

 

I don't know why you are underselling wickerbottom as "everything she can do is gather" when she can do infinitely more than maxwell (even in combat with her bees!). She also has her version of clones with her bees and her version of enemy CC with her web. Everything maxwell can do, she can also do and at the same time bring ten times more utility. 

[Cheggf]

1 minute ago, Dictator said:

He has:
Clones that attack
Clones that gather resources
Spell that locks enemies
Spell that fears enemies

Wickerbottom has:
Horticulture, Abridged and Expanded; Speeds up farming of food by a lot.
Applied Silviculture; Infinite grass tufts and saplings, can also calm down tree guards.
The Angler's Survival Guide; spawns fish out of nothing, free food.
Pyrokinetics Explained; Gets rid of smoldering and fire AND gives her a fire staff.
Overcoming Arachnophobia; creates web that slows enemies down for 2 minutes.
Lux Aeterna and Lux Aeterna Redux; Free light for boss fights and FARMING AT NIGHT.
Practical Rain Rituals; Can get rid or start rain AT WILL.
Lunar Grimoire; Can make all nights be full moon nights with a few copies.
Apicultural Notes; Can get bees that fight for you.
The Everything Encyclopedia; Free tier 1 science machine for everyone on the team when exploring.

 

I don't know why you are underselling wickerbottom as "everything she can do is gather" when she can do infinitely more than maxwell (even in combat with her bees!).

Horticulture, Horticulture (again), and angler's give food. Arachnophobia is a really weak version of Max's spells that's also way more expensive and I never see anyone use it. Pyro is a meme, never seen anyone use it. Lux is a star caller staff (easy to obtain item). Lunar grimoire is a meme, never seen anyone use it. Apicultural notes is a really terrible version of duelists. Everything encyclopedia is a meme, never seen anyone use it.

Only good thing you listed she has over Max is rain rituals, but you can just wear a coat. Also, Max has rain rituals as well lol.

[Pig Princess]

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Pyro is a meme, never seen anyone use it. Lux is a star caller staff (easy to obtain item). Lunar grimoire is a meme, never seen anyone use it. Apicultural notes is a really terrible version of duelists. Everything encyclopedia is a meme, never seen anyone use it.

Only good thing you listed she has over Max is rain rituals, but you can just wear a coat. Also, Max has rain rituals as well lol.

I'm sure you are just trolling, but for the sake of discussion I'll answer seriously anyway.

Lunar grimoire is nowhere near being meme: one can convert star caller staff on demand (even if full moon just ended), kill werepigs whenever one is near pig farm (more leeway compared to planning around rigid 20 days cycle; moonstorms have their own downsides and book can be obtained much earlier); one can run constant full moons with 3 books (almost constant with 2), which is especially convenient while one sails. This book alone allows to be very helpful to teammates even if Wickerbottom player is not near them, in other words, it gives Wickerbottom unique niche of bringing sea resources and be helpful to others even before bringing loot. Same is true for base-tender Wickerbottom who farms stuff (farm plants, grass/twig/reeds, fish, etc.). Practical rain rituals also enhance that playstyle when doing normally not top priority things becomes more attractive.

Practical rain rituals are not the same as wearing raincoat. Book affects whole world instead of 1 player (good for coop), can cause rain instead (good for electric buff and helps to create more goat herds, do it faster, to have less influence of RNG in the process; helps with Pearl's quests), but most importantly - it doesn't use equipment slot. So one can have tool/weapon, backpack/armor and light source and clear ruins much like in autumn, for example, or use other helpful equipment instead of eyebrella, rain coat or umbrella.

Pyrokinetics explained is one of the most underrated items in the game, it seems. Aside from being sidegrade of luxury fan (doesn't cool player, but materials are not season-locked, book has greater radius than even flingo and is rechargeable) it saves space on boat if one sails during summer (flingomatic is big structure, I'd rather have bookcase with pyro book instead of flingo for fire extinguishing and other benefits), and also it can be used for acceleration of honey production. Normally flingomatic would freeze bees if one tries to force them with fire from bee boxes, but with pyro book they start to work instantly (yes, they don't panic for some reason and pollinate flowers inside fire); fiery pen is extra nice thing to have for such farm (no need to bother with fire staff + pen is rechargeable, one can do everything from 1 place instead of running with torch). One could extinguish bee boxes with watering can, but it's slower than using pyro book (especially compared to combo with fire staff/fiery pen) and one runs high risk of fire becoming uncontrollable.

It's true that lux aeterna and it's upgrade function similar to star caller staff, however, they also cause earthquake, which can be useful (to force monkeys into their houses, for example, or in general for resources if one wants more earthquake loot (for cave base without going anywhere from it, for example)). I also find it useful when I need to lit the place (including making natural light for crops/flowers until convertion them into evil ones), but don't want to use star/moon caller staves because of their temperature effect, as well as ability of star caller staff to ignite things.

Everything encyclopedia is very useful in early game, and even in the mid-game can still benefit the player. Examples of use: to prototype moggles without spending resources on prototype station, to prototype things like piggyback, (glossammer) saddle and miner hat on the go. Early piggyback speeds up early game (less trips are needed to gather stuff with bigger backpack that is available earlier than normal), saddles allow to start riding beefalo earlier; prototyping miner hat/moggles helps with inventory management since one can craft item instead of holding materials in multiple inventory slots (miner hat=1 slot, mats for it=3 slots; moggles=1 slot, mats for it=4-5 slots). Book helps with early sailing as well: unless one builds science machine/bookcase on boat (during first sailing trip, for example), one can use book and prototype tree jam for fixing leaks. Not to mention cooperation potential.

I'm not sure about apicultural notes since I didn't play a lot of reworked Maxwell yet, as well as didn't use book a lot yet, but even now I can remember mobs aggroing on bees and reaggroing from duelists to Maxwell. Both effects can be viewed as upsides or downsides depending on situation, so pick effect that benefits you more, I guess.

And yes, Maxwell can read Wickerbottom's books, but he can't do it as often (so spamming them is more resource-intensive in terms of initial amount of books to circle) and obviously can't craft them (so if one wants to use books early it makes sense to pick Wickerbottom anyway). Plus there are small nice things such as being able to keep celestial crown powered on and still use books on the go without any extra sanity food/switching to lantern as Wickerbottom, but not as Maxwell (because of maximum sanity + sanity cost of books).

Neither before, nor after Maxwell rework I felt desire to craft books and then switch to Maxwell forever, even in late game, due to all mentioned things, as well as Wickerbottom being interesting enough to keep playing as her.

Edit: I forgot to mention another use of everything encyclopedia: bypassing need to craft prestihatitator (catch rabbits and such) and go straight to shadow manipulator. It aligns well with ruins rush when I don't want to go out of my way, but have living logs, nightmare fuel and purple gems anyway. Another use - to craft prestihatitator recipes without any prototype station: ice staves (for early jet feather and cooking+stunlocking ewecus even on laggy server), pan flutes, purple gem, life giving amulet (for your Wigfrid teammate and in general) are good examples.

[ShadowDuelist]

6 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

Everything encyclopedia is very useful in early game, and even in the mid-game can still benefit the player. Examples of use: to prototype moggles without spending resources on prototype station, to prototype things like piggyback, (glossammer) saddle and miner hat on the go. Early piggyback speeds up early game (less trips are needed to gather stuff with bigger backpack that is available earlier than normal), saddles allow to start riding beefalo earlier; prototyping miner hat/moggles helps with inventory management since one can craft item instead of holding materials in multiple inventory slots (miner hat=1 slot, mats for it=3 slots; moggles=1 slot, mats for it=4-5 slots). Book helps with early sailing as well: unless one builds science machine/bookcase on boat (during first sailing trip, for example), one can use book and prototype tree jam for fixing leaks. Not to mention cooperation potential.

 

6 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I forgot to mention another use of everything encyclopedia: bypassing need to craft prestihatitator (catch rabbits and such) and go straight to shadow manipulator. It aligns well with ruins rush when I don't want to go out of my way, but have living logs, nightmare fuel and purple gems anyway. Another use - to craft prestihatitator recipes without any prototype station: ice staves (for early jet feather and cooking+stunlocking ewecus even on laggy server), pan flutes, purple gem, life giving amulet (for your Wigfrid teammate and in general) are good examples.

Everything you said is spot on.
I just want to add to everything encyclopedia a tiny bit of info most people overlooks and I've found amazingly useful: The "knowledge" charges gained with this book stack. This means that one could read the book 2 times in a row to everyone, and they would have the power to do upper science or magic crafting 2 times, and even if they don't and the wickerbottom (or maxwell) keeps reading the book/books, you get even more charges of a handy portable "wickerbottom" perk.
Why is this useful? I tend to forget prototyping things until the moment I need them. By storing knowledge charges all you or your teammates need to carry around is a cheap science machine precrafted. And near a library, a team with a lecturing wickerbottom can bypass creating a shadow manipulator entirely and start enjoying dark swords, night armor, and batbats super early in the game (Wandas, Maxwells and Wormwoods super benefit from this perk) without the need of having someone read for you at the time you have to craft something.

Every time I have sanity to spare and I see people around, I keep reading these books to them (2-3 times). They'll thank later.