More clear-cut changes and respawning

[ZombieDupe]

Love the fact that some other things that used to be destroyed forever can now respawn in the game, like reeds and cactus, but there are still some things that could do respawning. A few are just for aesthetic mostly, but why allow players to ruin the aesthetic and contents of a biome forever? May have mentioned these before,

* gold boulders (because later in the game people can't craft research stations or compass to be usable without finding pig king, which isn't fair)

* bee hives (flare to the world, easy bee capture access and easy honey comb access without weird shenanigans)

* graves (otherwise they are a permanent structure that is  completely useless past that point unless someone plays as Wendy)

* pig houses (would suggest making starting pig houses indestructible, much like how world-spawned glaciers and pengull spawned glaciers differ in how they can be destroyed, decreasing pig skin cost per house would also be good)

* spiky trees and bushes (the former is mostly just aesthetic, but you have made leafy evergreens respawn before to make them a good source of wood too so why not this for a little extra resources? spiky bushes have a lot of potential since they don't need to be fertilized but since they don't respawn and can be burnt, that goes a little out of the window)

* grass and geckos (worlds lose grass a lot thanks to geckos + grass being burnt over time, it does not respawn enough, in addition I found this one mod where a killed gecko would drop a grass tuft so you can replant the gecko as grass, would give you options if you would rather have no geckos around and not have to make more walls and a proper pen for them, even if the mechanic is there as an option)

 

Wickerbottom's books look pretty cool, but I don't understand why there are so many variants of the same type of books. Lux eterna could just be one book type with a mid-range cost, why have a split right out of the gate? With Applied Horticulture and all these variants, just make it one book honestly, with 2 paper and 2 living log cost, being able to grow any crop type in radius would be fair, considering how much time it takes for a good yield to grow, for someone who has played the game long-term, growing 10 or 15 crops at once only is useless, wormwood planting wild seeds + Wickerbottom growing them instantly used to be better for that even if the old farming system was way too expensive if not bypassed like that. Then the old silviculture and horticulture abridged book visuals and so on can just be used as skins for the one and only Applied Horticulture. You made it work fairly well with the rain and moon book, so why not this? Simple and effective.

Also why have some books be 3 durability instead of 5? I think the latter would work for any book just fine really.

One additional book I would suggest stems from the idea of The Forge, where Wickerbottom and Maxwell too could petrify enemies. Maybe have that effect but for petrifying trees instantly? Rocks are much harder to come by than wood honestly and this would solve so many problems for later game. The cost could be 2 paper and 2 stone fruit rocks maybe?

 

Similarly would love to have the ability to have 3/4 abilities that WX used to have available at least at some point, active all at the same time. It used to be that, if charged, for a season or so WX could have light, cold immunity and +50% speed bonus, in addition to the massive stat pool that was active all the time, and you could have all of this at the same time. Now that's changed so that you can really only have 1 or 2 of these abilities active at the same time that would come close to it and that's disappointing to me. Why bother with recoil if the only real things I will choose is speed and maybe active light?

Reducing pin slots for certain modules or having ability to extend the pin slots to double that with maybe a limit of 3 or so modules of same type being possible to slot in at the same time regardless could make this possible. If I can have some light radius, 50% speed bonus as well as heat or cold immunity despite having low stats when playing WX I would be content and at that point I think WX would be on par with characters like Wanda and new Wortox and Wickerbottom, otherwise he just seems underwhelming to me.

 

Ok I won't dwell on this anymore, decide as you wish but all such changes are fair in my opinion.

[Capybara007]

hello

please dont make pig houses indestructible at the start

thats all

[Reiko24]

It's impossible to get rid of all beehives in the world and not even make a single beehive yourself, that would must be on purpose. You can drop honeycombs from Bee Queen and get bees from your own beehives, since they regenerate. I also don't see the point of making pig houses renewable. It's the same thing with beehives, you would need to destroy all of them on purpose and then don't do anything with them, not make a pig farm or anything at all which would be just your own fault like with beehives. The last two, spiky trees and bushes... I don't see the point of that at all.

[BezKa]

38 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

get bees from your own beehives,

Or deconstruct bee queen crown

[skile]

2 hours ago, BezKa said:

Or deconstruct bee queen crown

or borrow some bees from Pearl 

[Well-met]

if you want everything to respawn then you might aswell just start a new world

[Cheggf]

Indestructible pig houses is probably the single worst change that could happen. Imagine needing to keep running around the world farming the individual pigs until you can start crafting a pigman farm one house at a time. Football helmets would legit be harder to get than thulecite armor. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

if you want everything to respawn then you might aswell just start a new world

there are people who enjoy long term worlds, not everything should be balanced about the first few hours

[maxwell_winters]

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

there are people who enjoy long term worlds, not everything should be balanced about the first few hours

I enjoy long terms worlds and I don't want respawnable gold boulders. Getting more gold is a special task of the late game which requires certain planning. I don't want it simplified to going to the rock biome every 20 days or so. The same about graves. There are more reliable ways to get gems and gears, anyway. Graves and gold boulders are only there to give you a head start, imo. 

[Parusoid]

10 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

without finding pig king, which isn't fair

how is finding gold boulders fair but finding PK not?

10 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

pig houses

if you run out of pig skin you can try making moonstone event

 

10 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Why bother with recoil if the only real things I will choose is speed

you say you want to have all abilites active but then you say you only want speed, so what is it? do you want all or just speed?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

I enjoy long terms worlds and I don't want respawnable gold boulders. Getting more gold is a special task of the late game which requires certain planning. I don't want it simplified to going to the rock biome every 20 days or so. The same about graves. There are more reliable ways to get gems and gears, anyway. Graves and gold boulders are only there to give you a head start, imo. 

??? how getting gold requires planning? you just spam trinkets in PK's face and graves dont give anything interesting outside of early game

my comment was made for resources in general because certain users claim that the difficulty drops when you access to renewable resources when they are just used to decorate and not for surviving since beating the survival part of the game is super easy after you get some experience (experience that they might be lacking if they still claiming that after many years arround) so some people dont enjoy regenerating worlds after just 1 in game year over and over and over

[Kur0u]

17 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

I enjoy long terms worlds and I don't want respawnable gold boulders. Getting more gold is a special task of the late game which requires certain planning. I don't want it simplified to going to the rock biome every 20 days or so. The same about graves. There are more reliable ways to get gems and gears, anyway. Graves and gold boulders are only there to give you a head start, imo. 

It's not about going to the boulders to get more gold, long term late game you're better off ruins clearing for gold than boulders, having gold boulders fall from the sky or respawn in the world is for pure aesthetic, if you're a new player you're pretty much guaranteed to obliterate all gold boulders on your first world leaving the biome completely barren. It happened to me and I regret it deeply. Now my world is ages old with no boulders at all, and I hate that part of it. Gathering resources has little to do with it, at least for me.

[LitulLola]

I don't agree with making most things renewable. I think care should be taken to ensure resources last, it's a apart of survival. But I would like to see tenticals respawn. Not those in a reedtrap but naturally spawning ones.

[ZombieDupe]

On 7/29/2022 at 1:41 PM, Capybara007 said:

hello

please dont make pig houses indestructible at the start

thats all

Why? Present your arguments. And what's the counter argument to allowing anyone to making that resource so scarce in public servers, which happens all the time?

On 7/29/2022 at 3:20 PM, BezKa said:

Or deconstruct bee queen crown

On 7/29/2022 at 5:49 PM, skile said:

or borrow some bees from Pearl 

Killing hives and catching bees from hives almost anyone can do, that is the easiest source of bees and honey combs very early on. Getting to pearl to catch bees and killing Bee Queen every single time with a delay of 20 days is something you have to learn. First come, first serve, and then the other players suffer. If you play solely alone or only with friends or in strictly controlled servers, your argument has nothing to do with this.

We have such mechanics for other things, like carrots on surface, and now catcoon dens, reeds and cacti (thanks for listening, Klei) so this applying to more resources like this is not out of the question at all.

On 7/30/2022 at 4:08 PM, LitulLola said:

I don't agree with making most things renewable. I think care should be taken to ensure resources last, it's a apart of survival. But I would like to see tenticals respawn. Not those in a reedtrap but naturally spawning ones.

If you play alone maybe. But we're talking about public servers here too, especially public servers, where new players can and will destroy anything by accident or to try and learn. That destruction toll is too high and makes the game boring and irritating to play from a survival aspect. When we're talking repsawn, it's timed, not instantly at the spot you destroyed a resource from of course, so you couldn't for example pick a mandrake, eat it, then grab another that just respawned where you picked one and eat it again without lasting effects. The fact such effects are permanent however is a huge problem, especially if we consider someone can just come in, destroy non-renewables, take the spoils on their inventory, leave, and then everyone else is a lot more screwed than before. That is unfair and awful to allow happening in a multiplayer setting.  By that metric, remove bee hives, pig houses and mandrakes entirely, play like the whole world's on fire all the time!

On 7/29/2022 at 8:14 PM, maxwell_winters said:

I enjoy long terms worlds and I don't want respawnable gold boulders. Getting more gold is a special task of the late game which requires certain planning. I don't want it simplified to going to the rock biome every 20 days or so. The same about graves. There are more reliable ways to get gems and gears, anyway. Graves and gold boulders are only there to give you a head start, imo. 

This just makes new players hate old worlds more I think (if you have little to no experience with the game altogether as well). If you are new, and there are no research stations, like science machine and alchemy engine around, you will struggle a lot more than if there were gold boulders around. You will need to scrape by non-research stuff until you find pig king and can give him stuff to trade. New players don't go in caves either. You aren't going to mine gold boulders late game at meteor fields or anywhere else, and neither will I. I will go to ruins and grab wires or whatever other trinkets from tumbleweeds and desert pond fishing has given to me to trade for tons of gold. The small amount of gold from boulders is for new players, joining in, so they are less dependent on finding where pig king or base is and can manage more themselves.

I would assume a lot of people arguing against all such things are either playing alone or have little experience with public servers or maybe just think such servers should not be accounted for. That's not fair.

On 7/30/2022 at 12:00 AM, Parusoid said:

how is finding gold boulders fair but finding PK not?

if you run out of pig skin you can try making moonstone event

 

you say you want to have all abilites active but then you say you only want speed, so what is it? do you want all or just speed?

All of this suggests to me you have far less experience with the game than me.

1) You find gold boulders to start, then pig king. If you join a late world, say goodbye to any early gold. And if people are selfish there, which they likely will be, there will be no research stations around, especially considering guides out there suggest you hammer stations after being done with using them. Maybe there will be a burnt one cause griefers.

2) Ah yes, moonstone event, a thing that requires you to have a star caller staff taken from ruins to do and setup infrastructure around. Tell THAT to some guy who has 5 hours in the game and just joined your 2000 day world

3) Speed is what makes WX stand out. If you take that character, that outweighs all abilities. However with that alone, WX is subpar compared to other, clearly more powerful characters. He used to have huge stat potential + with overcharge he used to have that + cold immunity + light radius. Now it's either or, and if you keep swapping abilities, there is very little in perks you will get depending on how often you swap out as getting charge back takes time or something nearby you to recharge instantly and that is not easily done, to the point it's better to get speed and maybe night vision and then switch to a better character. Why not have WX be among the better characters?

Why not all characters be great in their own way instead of being "just a little quirky"? Why does Wanda have to outshine everyone almost every time (and she does, can and will, if you are experienced enough with the game you will know, if you disagree, you haven't played enough for sure)?

Maybe put double or tripple the time you have in the game now and play more on public servers and you'll understand what I'm saying.

Think I'm done trying to convince the bunch of people here that only are partially capable in the game and only understand their own struggles and have no comprehension to understand newbie mindset and struggle and just how bad a hand they can be dealt by other players (I am not a newbie for the record, just saying what I've observed and solutions to that). I'll just say what I think should be said and less replying because clearly none of this makes any sense to quite a few vocal players here.

[Capybara007]

51 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Why? Present your arguments.

1. Breaking pig houses for resources like boards and stone is a good startegy for people that dont care about long term worlds, making them indestructible would ruin these strategies

2. Some people find world generated pig houses annoying and will rather break the house to not have pigs there, making them indestructible would force you to live away/do a contraption to bear the pigs/werepigs

3. The game has a good balance of pig skin where if you arent careful with it you might be desesperate for it, this system allows players to be very smart and build pig farms and optimize them in many ways, making pig houses indestructible at the start would make it so pig farms are more of a luxury and not the earned reward they are now

58 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

And what's the counter argument to allowing anyone to making that resource so scarce in public servers, which happens all the time?

The counter argument is that a world by default should give you enough pig skin to cover all of your teammates and your own needs, since if we assume the players are gonna use the pig skin in something as basic as a football helmet, in a multiplayer world the resources needed are more than halved.

[ZombieDupe]

59 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

1. Breaking pig houses for resources like boards and stone is a good startegy for people that dont care about long term worlds, making them indestructible would ruin these strategies

2. Some people find world generated pig houses annoying and will rather break the house to not have pigs there, making them indestructible would force you to live away/do a contraption to bear the pigs/werepigs

3. The game has a good balance of pig skin where if you arent careful with it you might be desesperate for it, this system allows players to be very smart and build pig farms and optimize them in many ways, making pig houses indestructible at the start would make it so pig farms are more of a luxury and not the earned reward they are now

The counter argument is that a world by default should give you enough pig skin to cover all of your teammates and your own needs, since if we assume the players are gonna use the pig skin in something as basic as a football helmet, in a multiplayer world the resources needed are more than halved.

1) That's a minor issue. Just mine a few rocks, chop a few trees like you're supposed to anyway. Sacrifice I'm willing to take and arguably everyone else should. If they were indestructible from the beginning we wouldn't have had any of this conversation right now.

2) Possible, but have yet to experience an example of that. Pig village with pig king should always have pig houses. It's expected, and if you're a character pigs hate, just makes the downside all the more interesting. If nothing else, the houses in these villages should be indestructible unless you have a better solution in mind that fixes the skin problem (one potential fix could be other mobs dropping it, or a piece of leather that acts as pig skin too).

3) For you maybe, but being "smart" with it, with the potential to losing it all forever isn't fair, given the mechanics as they stand with other players. Pig farms should be the luxury given how essential pig skin is for helmets, and especially umbrellas for other players.

There is no limit to cover all your needs if the potential can be almost completely destroyed by one malicious or unaware player that may just had enough of pigs running around, especially when the latter arguably happens more often than the former.

[Parusoid]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

All of this suggests to me you have far less experience with the game than me.

 

Well clearly quite the oposite - you're the one who still relies on boulders for gold and pig houses for pig skin in old worlds so I couldn't beg to differ more

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

He used to have huge stat potential

which wasn't reliable at all , unless you had End Is Nigh! and a Wicker / Maxwell player at your whim

[goblinball]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Tell THAT to some guy who has 5 hours in the game and just joined your 2000 day world

Ngl if someone joins a 2000 day old world and expects to be able to treat the earlygame like they would in brand new world then that’s on them

[finn from human]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:39 AM, ZombieDupe said:

considering how much time it takes for a good yield to grow, for someone who has played the game long-term, growing 10 or 15 crops at once only is useless.

As someone who's played new Wickerbottom long-term, I HEAVILY disagree. Horticulture Expanded lets you quickly turn regular seeds into crop seeds in the early game for a head start on farming, helps out a LOT at grinding out any crops you might be missing (it would have taken me multiple seasons to get garlic seeds if not for being able to force grow 15 generic seeds at a time), and lets you quickly cycle spoiling seeds into fresh ones with fresh crops during any point in the game. It's absolutely not useless to be able to essentially do non-giant farming in a couple minutes rather than multiple days.

Also, books have multiple uses and can be repaired infinitely. Considering how easy the book is to craft if you've got enough papyrus, you can grow about as many crops at once as your sanity can handle.

[Capybara007]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

1) That's a minor issue. Just mine a few rocks, chop a few trees like you're supposed to anyway. Sacrifice I'm willing to take and arguably everyone else should. If they were indestructible from the beginning we wouldn't have had any of this conversation right now.

Like i said people that want to do things as fast as possible DO want to hammer houses because its faster than mining rocks and chopping trees, you might not like it, but others do, dont be so close minded when it comes to playthrough choices

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

2) Possible, but have yet to experience an example of that. Pig village with pig king should always have pig houses. It's expected, and if you're a character pigs hate, just makes the downside all the more interesting. If nothing else, the houses in these villages should be indestructible unless you have a better solution in mind that fixes the skin problem (one potential fix could be other mobs dropping it, or a piece of leather that acts as pig skin too).

Do i really need to give an explanation on why pig houses being indestructible would be a bother to long term players/megabasers? Again, close minded

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

3) For you maybe, but being "smart" with it, with the potential to losing it all forever isn't fair, given the mechanics as they stand with other players. Pig farms should be the luxury given how essential pig skin is for helmets, and especially umbrellas for other players.

"Losing all forever" is an exaggeration, because you can do moonstone

i know you mentioned that moonstone isnt that accesible but the player DESERVES to crave for skin for not taking good care of it

in their first playthrough some will most likely die to deerclops, so in their next playthrough they may or may not be able to defeat it but they do at least have a problem to solve

If in their first playthrough a player runs out of skins because the only method they found out was hammering, then the next time they play they will want to be a little bit more smart or they will stumble on the same stone

I think all of the ideas you suggested in your post are good, like desert tree just reapearing even if its just for aesthetic, but this one suggestion and the arguments you are providing just make me want to stay with the current system even more

[ZombieDupe]

@Capybara007 heavily disagree with all your sentiments and what you're used to playing in order to allow the issues of it to continue. Join maybe the second spring as a start in a public server, see how limited you are with full rain protection clothing options as all houses and tentacles are likely to be barren. But I won't dwell on it further, I recognize just how huge a problem it is that must be addressed and I don't think it's closed minded to make changes to make sure the drawbacks of such lack of care for systems don't occur.

[Faintly Macabre]

Making world-genned pig houses indestructible is an irredeemably bad idea. Kneecapping a significant number of players' playstyles and adding more unnecessary obstacles to terraforming just to fix what you think is the problem is just bad. The actual problem is this expectation some people seem to have that you would ever be able to join completely unmoderated servers and never have to deal with the consequences of sharing a world in this sandbox survival game with complete randos. Even if you made them indestructible, you'd just end up discovering your fellow players are inexperienced, selfish, or malicious some other way that would make it harder to recognize in a timely fashion so you can pick up and play somewhere else.

[ZombieDupe]

10 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Making world-genned pig houses indestructible is an irredeemably bad idea. Kneecapping a significant number of players' playstyles and adding more unnecessary obstacles to terraforming just to fix what you think is the problem is just bad. The actual problem is this expectation some people seem to have that you would ever be able to join completely unmoderated servers and never have to deal with the consequences of sharing a world in this sandbox survival game with complete randos. Even if you made them indestructible, you'd just end up discovering your fellow players are inexperienced, selfish, or malicious some other way that would make it harder to recognize in a timely fashion so you can pick up and play somewhere else.

That depends entirely on what that selfishness allows you to do to make it worse for other players. The more reasonably it's mitigated, the better. On public servers especially, you're supposed to and are expected to play cooperatively usually. We could even go for having half the houses destructible, half of them not, like the ones in pig villages, not be destructible at all for example, but the rest in forests being possible to do so.

[Bumber64]

What if you could do something to cause pig king to summon elite pigs?

[Mike23Ua]

On 8/2/2022 at 12:05 PM, ZombieDupe said:

We have such mechanics for other things, like carrots on surface, and now catcoon dens, reeds and cacti (thanks for listening, Klei) so this applying to more resources like this is not out of the question at all.

This is a double-edged sword by making things renewable, the player is also less likely to take caution in making sure it doesn’t end up going extinct-

for example.. in the old days a player would’ve built ice flingo machines around reeds or takin caution in NOT letting Bearger or Deerclops destroy all the Catcoon Dens.

But NOW those things renew.. so you can literally just let whatever happens to them happen to them and wait for them to renew. 
Deerclops crashed it? Meteor Field smashed it? Wildfire Blazed it? Beefalo Grazed it? Moon Gravity uprooted it? Bearger done looted it? Is it starting to look diseased and colors losing green? Has a Tornado or Hurricane came through and blown it entirely off screen?

It doesn’t matter because wait a few days and they’ll reappear.

If Klei is going to renew the PASSIVE stuff like Reeds & Catcoon dens- then they should also renew Swamp Tentacles and Angry Bee Hive Biomes.

In fact: I PRAY the next QoL update will make it so that when a swamp is cleared of tentacles, new ones can randomly spawn anywhere within the biome over time.

This again is a double edged sword because- Endless Tentacle Spikes/Spots.

But at least the world wouldn’t become VOID OF DANGER like it tends to do in longer term worlds..

(and people wonder why I delete my worlds and start new ones on around day 300..)