[Poll] On Powercreep in DST

[hhh2]

14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

(still don't know wtf Klei was thinking with Woflgang like srs)

they were drunk on prechrismas eggnog

7 hours ago, abrocator said:

him a more interesting downside

Really yeah, i liked the idea of his damage multiplyers not effecting nightmare creatures, not that what i just suggested was too intresting but it would atleast make his downside noticeable.

[LinknAllie]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:18 AM, Ohan said:

DST deserves to be way more popular, if that requires making certain parts of the game easier/having certain powerful survivors so be it.

No.  Making the game easier goes against the whole premise of the game itself.  While this might be "controversial" to some I would rather keep the game vague as large communities tend to ruin anything and everything about a game, show, book, ect.

[reallychina]

Powercreep is bad in DST but it does not only come with character refreshes, but with items, foods and resource availability.

 

However, this would be a non issue if the game would stop being stupid and adjust health AND DAMAGE of mobs and raids to the players active in the server. Or at least a way to up difficulty for greater rewards.

 

This developer stubbornness breaks the game the most.

14 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

So no. The Alarming clock is not powercreep, and it would only be mild powercreep if everyone else could use it too.

 The AC is the embodiment of powercreep. It is so unbelievably powerful it makes all other weapons obsolete.

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, reallychina said:

 The AC is the embodiment of powercreep. It is so unbelievably powerful it makes all other weapons obsolete.

It only makes other weapons obsolete for her, everyone else still has the entire weapons spread to choose from.  And why shouldn't the signature weapon of a combat focused character be the best weapon choice for her?  Its damage doesn't break the dps cap of Wolfgang anyway, and she can be out damaged by a skilled Warly against wet targets.

Too bad Wolfgang got his refresh - if they just left him alone his speed would keep him as a counter point to Wanda for strongest character choices.

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

It only makes other weapons obsolete for her, everyone else still has the entire weapons spread to choose from.  And why shouldn't the signature weapon of a combat focused character be the best weapon choice for her?  Its damage doesn't break the dps cap of Wolfgang anyway, and she can be out damaged by a skilled Warly against wet targets.

Too bad Wolfgang got his refresh - if they just left him alone his speed would keep him as a counter point to Wanda for strongest character choices.

warly high dps is very expensive and extremely situational.

The AC is not only about dps. it's also stupidly easy to recharge, skipping living logs and also makes fights too easy because of extra range.

There's also the hp breakpoints that are often overlooked. it's not only high dmg, it's about hitting over breakpoints, which saves hits while keeping you very safe. Most notably one shotting mobs with 100 and 125 hp and two shotting 200 and 250 mobs (bunnymen, pigs etc). Which means that, combined with range, for the vast majority of mobs you only hold F, no dodging necessary. Add that to the fact that you can hold F on Horrors and you only need to step back once, at most, on terrorbeaks.

Last but not least you can always get one hit in before dodging, which is huge, especially when fighting multiple mobs.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, reallychina said:

warly high dps is very expensive and extremely situational.

The AC is not only about dps. it's also stupidly easy to recharge, skipping living logs and also makes fights too easy because of extra range.

There's also the hp breakpoints that are often overlooked. it's not only high dmg, it's about hitting over breakpoints, which saves hits while keeping you very safe. Most notably one shotting mobs with 100 and 125 hp and two shotting 200 and 250 mobs (bunnymen, pigs etc). Which means that, combined with range, for the vast majority of mobs you only hold F, no dodging necessary. Add that to the fact that you can hold F on Horrors and you only need to step back once, at most, on terrorbeaks.

Last but not least you can always get one hit in before dodging, which is huge, especially when fighting multiple mobs.

For a combat focused character, why is this surprising?  The only surprising thing is after adding this they nerfed Wolfgang.

[reallychina]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

For a combat focused character, why is this surprising?  The only surprising thing is after adding this they nerfed Wolfgang.

its surprising because it's stronger and more streamlined than the strongest character while also having insane utility perks - backtreck AND rift watches.

and I frames infinite use backstep watches.

and free healing.

and no penalty on shadow equipment, on ruins staves etc

[ArubaroBeefalo]

22 minutes ago, reallychina said:

and free healing

can you elaborate more about this? :3

[SonicDen220]

Can't believe it has come to this again.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Can't believe it has come to this again.

On powercreep in DST, what characters should be buffed/nerfed, should Wanda be nerfed, a variety of Wolfgang related threads... The forums have really liked bringing up character balance recently.

6 hours ago, reallychina said:

However, this would be a non issue if the game would stop being stupid and adjust health AND DAMAGE of mobs and raids to the players active in the server.

What's stupid isn't not adjusting the health based on playercount. What's stupid is adjusting the health based on playercount. There's been countless threads where that's been suggested and every time many people have given many good reasons why it's a bad idea. To name just a few it would discourage teamplay, cause people to get mad at others that they feel are "poor performers", cause said "poor performers" to be votekicked since the bad players suck at the fight and think if the worse players were gone they could win, have fights be inconsistent and unreliable, make no sense logically, and make no sense thematically.

What's even stupider than adjusting health, though, is adjusting damage. You think the solution to the single target enemies being too easy in groups is to cause the single target enemies to just start chunking people while still being single target? The only good part about that idea is how hilarious it is. Would be really funny to see people just drop from ridiculous attack damage they weren't expecting.

If you think fights are too easy in a group just don't do them in a group, or intentionally nerf yourself.

[abrocator]

7 hours ago, reallychina said:

However, this would be a non issue if the game would stop being stupid and adjust health AND DAMAGE of mobs and raids to the players active in the server.

I think it’s fine the way it is.  If you fight Bee Queen with ten people you will just have to hold f… on the other hand you only get a 10% chance of receiving the blueprint, 10% of receiving the crown, etc.  If you fight her solo you will have to do more prep but all the loot will be yours.

One time I used a mod which adjusted the health of mobs and bosses according to the player count while playing solo.  Boss fights became too easy.

[Ohan]

13 hours ago, LinknAllie said:

No.  Making the game easier goes against the whole premise of the game itself. 

It doesn’t matter if it is something you want or not or agree with or not it has already happened. 

13 hours ago, LinknAllie said:

While this might be "controversial" to some I would rather keep the game vague as large communities tend to ruin anything and everything about a game, show, book, ect.

This kind of stance is always so funny to me. You love the game so much you want the developers to not be rewarded for the hard work they continue to put into it? 

I imagine the people this would be the most “controversial” to is in fact the developers who rely on the commercial success of the products they put out for their livelihoods lol in case that was not clear. 

dst is one the best game I’ve ever played I want it to keep being successful and grow in popularity so the devs will have an incentive to keep the updates coming for a long time to come. I don’t get how u can feel any other way if u really like a game. 

[1bubbainpa]

4 hours ago, SonicDen220 said:

Can't believe it has come to this again.

Genuine question, what’d you expect? Wanda being compared to the Wolfgang rework is the hot-topic for the past month.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

29 minutes ago, Ohan said:

This kind of stance is always so funny to me. You love the game so much you want the developers to not be rewarded for the hard work they continue to put into it? 

I imagine the people this would be the most “controversial” to is in fact the developers who rely on the commercial success of the products they put out for their livelihoods lol in case that was not clear. 

there are niche games, trendy games, casual games, etc. Forcing a niche game to jump into another category is scary because can lead to loosing the essence of the game

klei is making the game kinda easier but not in a scary way for the moment which is a logical thing because they cant grow  or maintain their homes forever with the money that few nerds waste into their products

i think that if a company really wanna make money they should do a game of a more profitable gender instead of making the risk move of releasing a niche game and later ruin it because money

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

On powercreep in DST, what characters should be buffed/nerfed, should Wanda be nerfed, a variety of Wolfgang related threads... The forums have really liked bringing up character balance recently.

 

idk on a level I can relate to it - Wolfgang's refresh was the only one to just completely dump on a character.  Disappointed and frustrated with Klei's absolute silence and inaction, the next move is to try to get spite nerfs.

I really don't understand why Klei decided to take Wolfgang to the chopping block.  He already existed as he did with all of the in game content as they released it - and I genuinely believe they designed a good amount of content based on the fact that you'll either have 1) Wolfgang, or 2) a team of players.  Releasing Wanda imo was a validation of who Wolfgang was in that form, someone who both matched his damage potential and offered a different avenue of power and perks.  There was no reason to nerf Wolfgang.  I've already moved on from playing Wanda, but I still don't think nerfing her is the right move :\  I'd rather Klei grew a pair and redid his refresh the same way they came back to Wendy.  but w/e haters gonna hate 

[abrocator]

18 hours ago, Atkvin said:

If making his power less accessible is the goal, there are many other ways to do so that could encourage different gameplay. 

My suggestion is to introduce a stamina stat that Migty Wolfgang has to manage in order to do maximum damage:

 

[reallychina]

21 hours ago, Cheggf said:

On powercreep in DST, what characters should be buffed/nerfed, should Wanda be nerfed, a variety of Wolfgang related threads... The forums have really liked bringing up character balance recently.

What's stupid isn't not adjusting the health based on playercount. What's stupid is adjusting the health based on playercount. There's been countless threads where that's been suggested and every time many people have given many good reasons why it's a bad idea. To name just a few it would discourage teamplay, cause people to get mad at others that they feel are "poor performers", cause said "poor performers" to be votekicked since the bad players suck at the fight and think if the worse players were gone they could win, have fights be inconsistent and unreliable, make no sense logically, and make no sense thematically.

What's even stupider than adjusting health, though, is adjusting damage. You think the solution to the single target enemies being too easy in groups is to cause the single target enemies to just start chunking people while still being single target? The only good part about that idea is how hilarious it is. Would be really funny to see people just drop from ridiculous attack damage they weren't expecting.

If you think fights are too easy in a group just don't do them in a group, or intentionally nerf yourself.

I can see you're not getting it, but at least try to sound less ignorant. Bosses doing more damage would at least partly solve the hold F strategies, which make the fights as stupid as you like them to be, apparently. 

But then again, you sound like the kind of person that thinks under 30 sec bee queen (which could be under 10 sec with the right setup) is peak gameplay bee queen dies in seconds - Twitch

The current system with no scaling makes the game very bad and power creeping only makes it worse.

 

[Capybara007]

Is not like health scaling is the only way to make bosses better in multiplayer, dfly would be just like 2 minutes more of holding F.

Aoe attacks and more damage would be actual solutions in my head.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Is not like health scaling is the only way to make bosses better in multiplayer, dfly would be just like 2 minutes more of holding F.

Aoe attacks and more damage would be actual solutions in my head.

exactly

they can make bosses with mechanics like klaus, casting more spells or having the deers hitting players arround him. Is sad to have bosses like CK that punish hard solo players just in a weak attempt of making the game harder for groups instead of adapting their atacks and cooldowns based on players fighting them in real time (so you cant cheese the adaptation like i explain later)

scaling hp based on players is one of the most dumb suggestion because that people dont take into account how to implement it and how bad it is for the game. Should BQ get more Hp because there is a server with 8 players but all of them except 2 will ignore her? it is fair for those 2 players? or should it only count the players arround the arena? then how do you prevent that 5 players wanna cheese her by making just 1 player summon her and later, when the hp is adapted to that player they engage the fight? wouldnt be better if BQ summon more bees per player near?

or just, as others said, dont fight with top gear+ iceflingo cheese+ volt goat jelly+ catapults+ hondius+etc if you are a gang of 8 players

[reallychina]

25 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Is not like health scaling is the only way to make bosses better in multiplayer, dfly would be just like 2 minutes more of holding F.

Aoe attacks and more damage would be actual solutions in my head.

exactly, increasing damage one way or the other is the most elegant solution.

 

the boss damage (single target) is effectively NERFED in the first place the more chars fight it.

 

the only thing it would not solve is the stupid hp pool when soloing bosses with a no damage multiplier char

[Capybara007]

The hp pool for solo players is totally fine.

What makes a boss unfair for solo its not the health, its the mechanics, like crab king.

Toad has a ton of hp but its fine because his attacks are very slow and gives a lot of room to do almost 10 hits in a row.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

On 1/24/2022 at 2:09 PM, Capybara007 said:

What makes a boss unfair for solo its not the health, its the mechanics, like crab king.

right, i said it has a big hp pool but the truth is that is the effect his healing, healing 750hp by default (almost the same hp of lord of flies...) per healing with a mechanic that is hard to counter because even with weather pains it can be triggered, is so dumb. It should heal way less but make the healing animation quicker and increase the number of attempts per player or something like that

On 1/24/2022 at 2:05 PM, reallychina said:

the only thing it would not solve is the stupid hp pool when soloing bosses with a no damage multiplier char

only misery toad has a really big ammount of hp and is worth because you get the napsack recipe which is a inversion, all the resources wasted in the fight are for saving resources in the future by using green staff on it. Also people focus too much on "omg toad has a lot of hp" but dont take into account the number of hit you can perform before needing to kite, AG has less HP than dragonfly but the fight might last more because is hard to hit him more than 2 times (thanks klei)

klaus, FW, dragonfly, bq, etc has a pretty good hp pool for such good resources. Seasonal bosses and others in that tier like malbatross are perfect

also time is a key factor in this game, having long fights adds a lot of excitement because you have to take into account weather changes, hound waves, sanity drains (i like how wolf reworks makes the dusk sanity drain a factor to tale into account), etc. As seen in DS and their dlcs, low hp is boring, you dont need preparation and you dont have to take into account much about the previous dangers because the fight last a couple of minutes. In addition, having big hp pools makes the player use his imagination since you make strategies to cut that time like using mob armies, better weapons (like waiting spring to use morning star/volt goat jelly), etc who would use bunnymen if all bosses had just 10k or less hp?

in late game, if you dont enjoy long fights, you can set up stuff like hondious

and to conclude the wall of text, we already have a way to scale the hp that really fits DST but is hated by many for some reason and it is the celestial portal. Do you hate certain boss? farm and use the perks from characters that makes that fight easier and short like using volt goat jelly, set up merms and a groucho glasses in a bundle, build catapults, etc

[Cheggf]

3 hours ago, reallychina said:

I can see you're not getting it, but at least try to sound less ignorant. Bosses doing more damage would at least partly solve the hold F strategies, which make the fights as stupid as you like them to be, apparently. 

But then again, you sound like the kind of person that thinks under 30 sec bee queen (which could be under 10 sec with the right setup) is peak gameplay bee queen dies in seconds - Twitch

The current system with no scaling makes the game very bad and power creeping only makes it worse.

 

You totally sound smart and good at the game when your only reasoning for why the game should be changed is insulting people. Making bosses do more damage would do nothing to the hold f strategy except require you to bring more armor and healing. The majority of the players there would still be taking no damage and they would still be dealing damage so unless for some reason you think bosses oneshotting people through armor is how it should be it wouldn't even change much.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, reallychina said:

But then again, you sound like the kind of person that thinks under 30 sec bee queen (which could be under 10 sec with the right setup) is peak gameplay bee queen dies in seconds - Twitch

wow what a dumb example

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, reallychina said:

the only thing it would not solve is the stupid hp pool when soloing bosses with a no damage multiplier char

Now why am I not surprised the person who thinks bosses are too easy and need to deal more damage would say this?