[Poll] On Powercreep in DST

[reallychina]

33 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

imo this is where things like Wanda's AC efficiency and the mask of terror become important.  I don't like joining a world with 6-10 other people because it often means there are shortages of basic ingredients, and I might as well just play on my own private world.  Solo what happens is you just don't farm pig skins...  When I played Wanda I'd run around with stacks of nm fuel and paper, all the starter pig skins would sit in a chest, and I'd get to not build and maintain a pig farm.  Less chores == good ^_^

In my multiplayer games its great because its 1 less player we need those resources to equip, so we can cover the team easier and get to more content.

Well yes, all the things add up and complement each other while boss (and mob) hp and damage stays the same. This would be the overarching argument that there is significant powercreep in DST

 

But again, better synergy, more skills, items and options is not bad as long as it is balanced with higher difficulty.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

Well yes, all the things add up and complement each other while boss (and mob) hp and damage stays the same. This would be the overarching argument that there is significant powercreep in DST

wolfgang existed in DS where all mobs and boss had half hp and there werent any raid boss so i dont see the powercreep because they released another x2 damage character

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

Well yes, all the things add up and complement each other while boss (and mob) hp and damage stays the same. This would be the overarching argument that there is significant powercreep in DST

 

But again, better synergy, more skills and options is not bad as long as it is balanced with higher difficulty.

Except the things that add up don't really add more damage, so boss hp isn't really being effected.  What changes is how much time you spend building and maintaining supplies of different resources.  The mask of terror doesn't provide greater protection than a football helmet, it just provides a convenient way to maintaining that protection.  Wanda doesn't deal more damage than a single character has before, she just doesn't burn as many living logs.

[reallychina]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wolfgang existed in DS where all mobs and boss had half hp and there werent any raid boss so i dont see the powercreep because they released another x2 damage character

2x damage is a very small % of what constitutes power creep

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

2x damage is a very small % of what constitutes power creep

then why you talk about hp? i dont get it

[ImDaMisterL]

Hey everyone, just a friendly reminder to follow the Community Guidelines, take the high road and respect other users when posting.

Thanks for understanding, and have a great day

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, ImDaMisterL said:

Hey everyone, just a friendly reminder to follow the Community Guidelines, take the high road and respect other users when posting.

Thanks for understanding, and have a great day

ah yes, the standard "we're going to ignore everything discussed in every topic and just copy paste the civil reminder"

[ArubaroBeefalo]

20 minutes ago, reallychina said:

ah yes, the standard "we're going to ignore everything discussed in every topic and just copy paste the civil reminder"

instead of banning us they point us "you are going to far". If you really wanna taste it you can keep the fight and the ban will come

isnt that hard to understand

[GetNerfedOn]

Klei taking sides in a very nuanced discussion regarding game balance would only serve to introduce polarizing, "correct and officially endorsed" opinions and further conflict in the already argumentative community. Same inference I can make as to why they don't take sides in certain, more controversial topics i shall not mention. 

While i certainly empathize with frustration given their apparent lack of interaction, what they do is certainly for the best, if not better than the alternative; furthermore, they do their best and finest to show they're listening through updates. 

[firoborn]

54 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

Klei taking sides in a very nuanced discussion regarding game balance would only serve to introduce polarizing, "correct and officially endorsed" opinions and further conflict in the already argumentative community. Same inference I can make as to why they don't take sides in certain, more controversial topics i shall not mention. 

While i certainly empathize with frustration given their apparent lack of interaction, what they do is certainly for the best, if not better than the alternative; furthermore, they do their best and finest to show they're listening through updates. 

proof of your first point is klei taking the side of nerfing wolfgang 

[reallychina]

12 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

instead of banning us they point us "you are going to far". If you really wanna taste it you can keep the fight and the ban will come

isnt that hard to understand

i couldn't care less considering they blatantly ignored dozens if not hundreds of overall pages regarding wolfgang rework.

because of that i lost interest in posting here and in the game so yeah

[Pig Princess]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:55 AM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

just give us an aoe weapon

Tail'o'three cats could be buffed to be AoE weapon, and deaggro feature could be tied to every X hit in rapid consequence rather than being based on chance. I would use this item so much more often then despite low damage and long hitting animation, in particular, for FW fight and for day 100+ hound waves, for shadow splumonkeys, etc. It wouldn't rival other weapons because of low damage and longer attack animation, as well as relatively expensive recipe (catcoons can't be relocated and after certain amount of kills den needs time to regenerate), and will soften difference between having Abigail on one's side or not.

On 1/22/2022 at 4:55 AM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

a x2 speed weapon

It would be cool to receive buff to these things:

and it could be 2x attack speed. After all it's AoE I find too small to be used on practice, they are hard to obtain, have such low damage that even with 2x speed wouldn't rival even tentacle spike. It would make sence for them to be more useful in fight with Crab King since both are ocean content (and weather pain grind doesn't fit very well with exploring ocean, it's completely separate activities).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Tail'o'three cats could be buffed to be AoE weapon, and deaggro feature could be tied to every X hit in rapid consequence rather than being based on chance. I would use this item so much more often then despite low damage and long hitting animation, in particular, for FW fight and for day 100+ hound waves, for shadow splumonkeys, etc. It wouldn't rival other weapons because of low damage and longer attack animation, as well as relatively expensive recipe (catcoons can't be relocated and after certain amount of kills den needs time to regenerate), and will soften difference between having Abigail on one's side or not.

It would be cool to receive buff to these things:

and it could be 2x attack speed. After all it's AoE I find too small to be used on practice, they are hard to obtain, have such low damage that even with 2x speed wouldn't rival even tentacle spike. It would make sence for them to be more useful in fight with Crab King since both are ocean content (and weather pain grind doesn't fit very well with exploring ocean, it's completely separate activities).

i never understood why klei did seedshells in that way. i can't find an scenario where they would be useful

[SecretPizzaMan]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i never understood why klei did seedshells in that way. i can't find an scenario where they would be useful

I didn't know they were a thing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

I didn't know they were a thing.

and now that you know them, nothing changed, right? 

[SecretPizzaMan]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and now that you know them, nothing changed, right? 

I. I guess you're right, I'll continue not using them even despite knowing of it's existence, in fact if I ever do encounter it I might forget that I even know about it.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, SecretPizzaMan said:

I. I guess you're right, I'll continue not using them even despite knowing of it's existence, in fact if I ever do encounter it I might forget that I even know about it.

they look cool in the ground, can be used as decorative frame for turf but man, sea weeds are scarier than fuelweaver

[abrocator]

Dangerous mobs, useless to mediocre loot—welcome to the Ocean.

[GetNerfedOn]

4 minutes ago, abrocator said:

Dangerous mobs, useless to mediocre loot—welcome to the Ocean.

It particularly bothers me that the Rockjaw doesnt drop a weapon or weapon ingredient despite being farmore threatening than the Swordfish in Shipwrecked. It wouldn't even be powercreep to add that kind of drops to it, i'd wager heartily

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

It particularly bothers me that the Rockjaw doesnt drop a weapon or weapon ingredient despite being farmore threatening than the Swordfish in Shipwrecked. It wouldn't even be powercreep to add that kind of drops to it, i'd wager heartily

or atleast double the ammount of fish dropped by them to make them worth but i guess they are intended to be just a danger but i like to have a reason to waste my time fighting an enemy that can one shot me and that is kinda tireshome to fight for how easy they change aggro (they have some kind of concentration problem)

[MondayNight]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

...but i guess they are intended to be just a danger but i like to have a reason to waste my time fighting an enemy that can one shot me and that is kinda tireshome to fight for how easy they change aggro (they have some kind of concentration problem)

On the flip side: if 2 or more players are present, or player and some followers (Pigmen, Bonnylads), Wendy with Abi, Walter and Slingshot attack from distance - Rockjaws will be stunlocked for most time, equating to an easy kill. I guess solely solo players wanting to kite/tank are punished for whatever reason, making Ocean sailing even less appealing. Epic design.

 

Regarding genuine "Power Creep" (aka "new content slowly outstripping the power level of previous alternatives" as per definition): I don't believe it occurs in DST, or at least not on the level where it becomes generally bothersome. Like previous comments pointed, only CC's amount of Moon Shards (and possibly Moon Rocks too), alongside Wanda's Alarm Clock (though is a mid-to-late game character-specific weapon most Wanda Players - bulk player-base - won't even access) may truly be considered "power creeping", and even that's debatable (except Moon Glass Axes & Glass Cutters, there aren't any efficient, wide-spread uses for Shards, plus Wanda's picking rate falls in middle-of-road related to general pick rates - and yes, pretty significant given she's a purchasable/spools weavable character). Nothing is generally better than Dark Swords, Ham Bats, Thulecite, Marble and Night Armors in universal efficient use. Other blamed "culprits" like Stone Fruit Bushes are now pretty much outclassed by RWYS new farming system; and Terraria crossover bosses' loot, if anything, in hands of bulk player-base are sub-par items since most players "eat" Pig Skin/Helmets like food - for advanced players represent solely mid-level "every-day use" alternatives to Football Helmets & Tentacle Spikes; can be reliable for raid boss fights too if careful, yet in this case you'll also need healing food for respective items, aka more food or more slots for food (if employing raw ingredients like Red Shrooms/Monster Meat). At most (sans "knee-jerk reaction"/exaggerations) one can say there is evolution in DST to a certain degree - once more: as others previously underlined.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

On the flip side: if 2 or more players are present, or player and some followers (Pigmen, Bonnylads), Wendy with Abi, Walter and Slingshot attack from distance - Rockjaws will be stunlocked for most time, equating to an easy kill. I guess solely solo players wanting to kite/tank are punished for whatever reason, making Ocean sailing even less appealing. Epic design.

or wanda destroying them before they can fight back. But my biggest problem isnt them being dangerous but being tireshome, i dont want to waste my weapons in an isolate place to fight something that will leave without finishing the fight

if atleast making blowdarts was worth... 

[Pig Princess]

43 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

if 2 or more players are present, or player and some followers (Pigmen, Bonnylads), Wendy with Abi, Walter and Slingshot attack from distance

You forgot about Webber with spiders. Recently I played solo Webber and sailed with 5 spitters and 2 nurses (surprisingly, boat didn't feel crowded), and it was so satisfying to kil the thing within mere seconds. I thought Wendy was one of the best sailors (because of rockjaw and gnarwhale, + less sanity loss in absence of typical sanity restoration means), but now I changed my mind: Webber kills rockjaw much faster and can save all dropped fish, spiders are great for Malbatross (much more feathers on average + free ranged attacks before player is able to hit it with melee weapon), spiders help with multiple cookie cutters (since cc attack is AoE they aggo quite a few spiders on attack and receive very quick death they deserve, also player doesn't even need to bring 50+ damage weapon to prevent leaks/damage), spiders don't aggro on him in Waterlogged (which may otherwise be a problem with limited space on boat and lesser ease of movement (compared to simple running)), he can fight Crab King without weather pains, and he also has extra options to remain sane.

But rockjaws could use improvement for their brains nevertheless for the sake of other characters.

[MondayNight]

On 1/21/2022 at 5:18 PM, Ohan said:

winter got ‘powercrept’ on hard in terms of food production. Figs, kelp, stone fruits, rwys crops all grow in winter. (And crops no longer wither in summer either)

You make it sound like all bulk player-base people are rushing Moon and Waterlogged biome 1st Autumn, and/or efficient farming. It requires knowledge and experience to be successful at mentioned actions, else will just hit rock-bottom on sea as some flamboyant "floater" in record time plus reap at most some solo fruits/veggies (if not straight-up rot from forgetting to check crops) without any additional seeds (likewise, if doing so, congrats on not exploring map for better/alternative resources while you sat and tended your farm-plots). And that IF people even understand how to initiate farming via Digamajig (name changed from Rigamajig precisely because was unintuitive in relation to farming), till plots, water, dig weeds, nutrients intake (already pretty SF for vast majority of players out there). As for obtaining Knobbly Tree Nuts, planting and growing them via Tree Jam ... yea, sure. Go pubs, even Endless, and see how bulk players fair at what you enumerated in relation to supposed food "power creep". Ah, advanced players you meant? Yes, they can efficiently survive off the land without any farming hassle of any kind whatsoever. Hunts and shrooms, even in pubs, will suffice for nomad play-style.

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Snip.

Play style.

Spoiler

Lol I dunno what this thread is about. But it's nice that each avenue has some merit to it, even when they aren't the "best" "optimal" choice.

Farmers

Nomads

Water Enthusiasts

We're all probably a mix of all of these "play styles"

I think the game is all about adapting and using the "right" tool for the job.

Some tools are upgrades or situational. But most situational ones have special quirks that make them worth it.

They can have "drawbacks" like spoilage, sanity drain, finite durability, special crafting materials, or high crafting cost.

However there is "ol' reliable" type of items that do just fine.

Spoiler

Miner's hat, lantern, football helmets, log suits, healing salves, hambats.

Ol' reliables.

The game can be completed without any of these "power creep" items or whatever is being discussed, but then again if you aren't using them or attempting any "progress" you're kinda missing out on the "game".

Practically everything can be ignored lol, but if you aren't feeling the need to engage with the game to do "better" or accomplish a "goal" what's the point?

The game is a "multiplayer sandbox survival" I guess there isn't much of a point but the one you decide for yourself.

Spoiler

I can't believe I can use Minecraft as an example.

There is a definitive "end game" in Minecraft but that ultimately means nothing to those who don't care about survival mode, making progress in a sandbox, or are generally bad at the game so that they won't be alive long enough to even experience it.

New content has always affected those with the knowledge to take advantage or even notice the changes far more than "noobs".

 

 

We could put any random Joe into a racecar and maybe they'll make it to the end without crashing.

But they aren't gonna be pushing "limits" or making indepth analysis about their experience.

But put an actual race car driver into it and they'll show it's true "potential" and probably be able to explain any "technique" right after.

 

 

One more example on why I think it's more important to look at what pro's do is because they show what is possible because they actually understand what's going on.

In Team Fortress 2 The Base Jumper is an unlock that allows a slower descent from blast jumps.

This would make the player an easy target for airshots, headshots, direct hits, and practically just about anything.

It used to be spammable mid-air unbeknownst to the noobs player-base who saw the base jumper as absolute garbage.

This allowed insane mobility in the air when combined with air-strafing and spamming the parachute. It made one of the hardest targets to hit in the game, with just one item and abit of game knowledge.

So the base jumper got absolutely destroyed for everyone.  And is now regulated to extreme situational garbage.

Not a great time. It was a severely underused weapon anyways and is not even more unused, but I think it shows how noobs are terrible at judging anything for balancing or tweaks.