Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[JustExo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

I think that as it sits now Wolfgang has a lower skill cap, but also a lower power level.  I go into this myself in my post linked above - I'm glad Klei is open to feedback and pushed the beta branch because they will hopefully arrive at a better Wolfgang when we're done.  A better Wolfgang doesn't need to have a speed boost though.  I think without giving the speed boost back we can reach a more fun Wolfgang that still allows for skillful plays.

This is clearly false - People who enjoy rushing the game currently enjoy Wolfgang nearly unanimously because he is clearly the best at doing this.  Yet he is not the only combat focused character.  Why should the other combat focused character sit at a clearly lower tier?  Klei isn't taking away his speed buff because they want to slow down speed runs, they are taking it away because it clearly overshadows other combat focused characters.

It overshadows combat characters in one regard, while still ignoring the other things that other combat oriented characters bring to the table. Wolfgang caters to a certain type of playstyle which is, go in fast, go in hard, and go in alone. Wigfrid with her various support options is oriented towards: gear up and roll out with a group. Wanda is a character who, while not necessarily combat oriented, still has really good combat capabilities with a bunch of other things tacked onto her kit to make her more beneficial in other fields. 

I do agree with the statement that Wolfgang's skill cap and power level got lowered, and while not all of it is warranted, I think adding more difficulty to getting his strongest attributes is something that could be done interestingly, while the primary complaint I see regarding its current beta branch status is that it just isn't interesting. 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

There are conversations about how is best at resource gathering too.  That isn't what this thread is about, so when we're here and someone says "I don't like Wolfgang meta" I think you know what they mean, and that they are on topic.  Trying to question "what is meta" is subversive logic, hoping to derail the conversation.  Wolfgang meta is a big part of this conversation because character selection is the biggest factor that goes into who can rush through the bosses to get all of the end game loot.  Anyone can set up farms for any other resource in the game, and character selection is nearly meaningless to those.

Regarding Wolfgang meta, its important to define what meta you're talking about in this context since that is what the entire conversation of balancing is about. Are you talking about a meta regarding his utility in a team oriented setting, or in a world where your only goal is to kill as many bosses as quickly as you can? 

Saying that the entire conversation is about one or the other is ignoring the people who want to talk about aspects of the character that wouldn't apply to a solo boss rush world, like gyms being usable by other characters because that perk would have no relevancy for them

[Cunning fox]

It would be great if you gave something instead of his speed thing at least. I really thing that he should get bonus in chopping/mining/etc when mighty AND should get strenght while doing so. I believe it'd also addres the team benefit issue.
Overall update is fine I guess.

[sudoku]

14 minutes ago, bagherthegamer said:

 

Well my freind, when i said that i meant alot better than how every one makes it out to be. I mean so many people were just this is not how i wanted it therefore its bad and everyone who doesnt agree is a noob who doesnt listen to "feedback". 

I think people are allowed to think its bad, but just because they think that doesnt mean everyone has to think its bad, so i agree with you. 

I am just confused on why everyone is focusing on the speed boost, and why everyone who thought he was boring to play before now magically think that by removong the speed boost he is no longer boring. Hello! He is still boring either way, having to watch him do some animations or play minigames before behaving exactly how he did when people thought he was boring minus the speedIness is not a solution.

[JustExo]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

I think people are allowed to think its bad, but just because they think that doesnt mean everyone has to think its bad, so i agree with you. 

I am just confused on why everyone is focusing on the speed boost, and why everyone who thought he was boring to play before now magically think that by removong the speed boost he is no longer boring. Hello! He is still boring either way, having to watch him do some animations or play minigames before behaving exactly how he did when people thought he was boring is not a solution.

Imo, the speed boost was just nice to have more than anything else. I definitely see more people take issue with the time it takes to set up his might more than anything else though. 

Overall he's still gonna play mostly the same with the current beta branch, except now instead of "eat, fight" people are going to do "eat, lift, wait, fight"

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, nice rocks said:

I am not a fan of this rework as it is now because it makes playing Wolfgang slower and more tedious when it doesn't have to.

just the very early game.

people who complain about the refresh should play it for a little because i cant understand how someone could prefer the old tedious and grindy wolfgang vs the confortable and cheap refresh

you lose speed and the very early game is slower but you dont have to gather stupid amounts of food and getting mighty is literally free with the gym

if wolfang would be a new character people wont even think about giving to him a speed buff. Maybe even would claim him being op for getting x2 without effort

klei removed his downside so how is he worst now? is different but not worts

[JustExo]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

just the very early game.

people who complain about the refresh should play it for a little because i cant understand how someone could prefer the old tedious and grindy wolfgang vs the confortable and cheap refresh

you lose speed and the very early game is slower but you dont have to gather stupid amounts of food and getting mighty is literally free with the gym

if wolfang would be a new character people wont even think about giving to him a speed buff. Maybe even would claim him being op for getting x2 without effort

klei removed his downside so how is he worst now? is different but not worts

What a lot of wolfgang players take issue with is the very early game is worse now. Some people really liked being able to rush things as soon as they possibly could, which is where the issues that people have come from 

[reallychina]

It's not just early game. The speed nerf affects early, mid and lategame. Yes, slowing down earlygame is reasonable and necessary, but wolfgang was great to play because you could go fast and try to beat the clock, it was like racing games.

 

His downside now is just that it's more boring and slow to play, no real penalty other than that. He should be getting more penalties, like wanda does. This rewards good playstyle. There is no point in him being a damage dealer and a tank, his health should be massively dropped, i think under 100hp should be fine.

He could be getting the old speed boost only if he is above 90% health, which would in turn reward good playstyle and set a soft downside/penalty.

I think the lifting approach is in fact correct but with no speed buff it slows the gameplay too much to be engaging.

[Captain_Rage]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m confused about the whole tie his movement speed to how sane he is suggestion, don’t bosses MASSIVELY drain Sanity when near them anyway?? So really it would be the same problem of hitting like a truck with super speed all over again correct?

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

Why do people think Wolfgang's speed boost should be taken away?

For the reason above. If you have an extremely hard-hitting character that is also sturdy and able to outrun every attack and detrimental effect that bosses have, the boss design crumbles and balance goes through the window. How do you intend to make any interesting new bosses if there is one character that excels in every area revolving around defeating them? Either some artificial mechanic has to be introduced that mitigates / normalizes said bonuses anyway, or the boss will be silly easy for that character or every other character will suffer for no reason when fighting it. Generally speaking, that is. I will omit pointing specific bosses and their mechanics but hopefully what I wrote is comprehensible.

People are vehemently lamenting about the Crab King fight being poorly designed. Let's see how Wolfgang fares at fighting it now with his boosted rowing speed. To me it already sounds as the new changes will make Wolfgang very good at fighting bosses without breaking their design, because now he can use Marble Suits without any move speed penalty.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

11 minutes ago, JustExo said:

What a lot of wolfgang players take issue with is the very early game is worse now. Some people really liked being able to rush things as soon as they possibly could, which is where the issues that people have come from 

and i get it but this was an improvement and they still can rush things. Isnt like he doesnt have x2 damage lel

he didnt lose the throne of being the best in early game just slowes

i get that some people get upset but the refresh has improve a lot what wolfgang. Sacrificing how stupid he was before shouldnt be as dramatic as this forum is trying to show, is a character with x2 damage, srly people need more to kill s boss quickly?

[sudoku]

My opinion on the rework boils down to I think Wolfgang working for his mightyness is a good idea. I think that work being a minigame is not a good idea.

In the early game it is tedious and boring and, as you work towards leveling up your gym, by the end you get mightyness in no time which then the gym stops providing any sort of gameplay and we end up back at square one pre rework in that other than being quicker at killing bosses Wolfgang has no unique gameplay and ultimitley why i think this rework fails.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, reallychina said:

It's not just early game. The speed nerf affects early, mid and lategame. Yes, slowing down earlygame is reasonable and necessary, but wolfgang was great to play because you could go fast and try to beat the clock, it was like racing games.

 

His downside now is just that it's more boring and slow to play, no real penalty other than that. He should be getting more penalties, like wanda does. This rewards good playstyle. There is no point in him being a damage dealer and a tank, his health should be massively dropped.

He could be getting the old speed boost only if he is above 90% health, which would in turn reward good playstyle and set a soft downside/penalty.

I think the lifting approach is in fact correct but with no speed buff it slows the gameplay too much to be engaging.

is the same speed as any other character

some of you just wanna faceroll

 

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

I think that work being a minigame is not a good idea

4 seconds minigame

[sudoku]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is the same speed as any other character

some of you just wanna faceroll

 

4 seconds minigame

Read the rest of my post.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

In the early game it is tedious and boring and, as you work towards leveling up your gym

leveling up... you only need to chop few trees and mine a couple of rocks

Just now, sudoku said:

Read the rest of my post.

i did and i dont get it, soz

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Some people really liked being able to rush things as soon as they possibly could

6 minutes ago, reallychina said:

wolfgang was great to play because you could go fast and try to beat the clock, it was like racing games.

They still can, and still will be, except they might find Wolfgang isn't the only horse in the race...

[Szczuku]

666 replies on a character rework post.

The Holy Trinity of DST is gonna be Hell for Klei, isn't it?

[reallychina]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is the same speed as any other character

some of you just wanna faceroll

then let's make all characters the same and go home.

 

and no, some characters have bonus movement speed. Wanda technically has the highest movement speed of all cause she can cover distance instantly.

 

All chars move too slow to begin with.

 

Wolfgang speed allowed for racing through content and it was fun. If people don't like the speed, they can pick another character.

[sudoku]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

leveling up... you only need to chop few trees and mine a couple of rocks

So then i am giving the gym more credit than its worth in the gameplay department? My point is in leui of having Wolfgang do something interesting for his mightyness he instead plays this minigame that robs us of potential gameplay scenarios.

[JustExo]

Just now, Shosuko said:

They still can, and still will be, except they might find Wolfgang isn't the only horse in the race...

The way they went about doing it is the biggest issue that I see people have. Giving him an alternative to working out for might could be interesting

[ArubaroBeefalo]

this is the same wendy's scenario

people just ignore what the refresh bring and focus on what is lost even when klei added things to compensate like not speed penalties

instead of wanting to mske wolf interesting they will cry about how speed is super atached to wolfgang ( a speed boost that wasn't even intended) ignoring that speed boost+marble suit is ridiculous

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

All chars move too slow to begin with.

that is your problem

[reallychina]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

They still can, and still will be, except they might find Wolfgang isn't the only horse in the race...

so then buff the speed of the other chars instead of nerfing the char that fits a niche?

 

 

[JustExo]

Just now, JustExo said:

The way they went about doing it is the biggest issue that I see people have. Giving him an alternative to working out for might could be interesting

Something that I proposed awhile ago is to have might gradually increase when his hunger is at, or above 75%, or have excess hunger points that go over the max hunger cap can contribute to might at a lesser rate

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

So then i am giving the gym more credit than its worth in the gameplay department? My point is in leui of having Wolfgang do something interesting for his mightyness he instead plays this minigame that robs us of potential gameplay scenarios.

and what do you want? eat during the travel?

i dont get the complain about the gym, is literally the most forgiving and confortable tbing added since abi refresh and rwys, is dumb prof

[Owlrust]

2 hours ago, minespatch said:

What would Willow tossing Bernie would be like?

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

then let's make all characters the same and go home.

Ah, the false dichotomy fallacy, one of my favorites.

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

and no, some characters have bonus movement speed. Wanda technically has the highest movement speed of all cause she can cover distance instantly.

If you wait until you farm a few walrus tusks yes, but even without speed buff I think Wolfgang will beat her in race to AFW and CC.

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

All chars move too slow to begin with.

There are several speed buffs you can get in the game, and not all characters move slow.  As I said - rebalancing this might mean Wolfgang isn't the only choice for speed runs - which is a good thing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

so then buff the speed of the other chars instead of nerfing the char that fits a niche?

 

 

sure, make all ccharacter go faster so wormwood and wx can reach ultrasonic speed