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Anyone who studies and practices with the Codex Umbra can do everything maxwell does right?


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So like if Wigfrid studies and practices with the Codex Umbra, she'll be able to make shadow puppets, become "triumphant", lose all of her viking powers, and become as fragile as Maxwell right?

Because we saw Maxwell become "triumphant" and capable of manipulating shadow before he got transferred to the Constant. So logic dictates anyone who studies and practices with the Codex Umbra would end up identical to him. Including the physical frailty.

Wilson sat on the Nightmare Throne but he got no shadow powers so its safe to say Maxwell's advantages are due to his Codex Umbra and not because of his time spent on the nightmare Throne.

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TL;DR - Not sure if anyone else could do that too though, I guess they just don't have the experience he does.

My full take below:

Spoiler

I think it's based on both how much time he spent with the book and the residual power he got from the throne in that time. Wilson was only on the throne for a little while based on what the comics allude to, whereas Maxwell was on the throne for a LONG time. He made his entire career around magic tricks with a book that made everything come to life; he is, in a sense, a puppet master. He probably just has whatever little power left he salvaged while on the throne, and is only able to do the magic tricks he did on stage with some added stuff to make them useful. Even then, he still needs the book to do that stuff as well.

 

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20 minutes ago, wefoij said:

Wilson sat on the Nightmare Throne but he got no shadow powers so its safe to say Maxwell's advantages are due to his Codex Umbra and not because of his time spent on the nightmare Throne.

I think his powers absolutely come from his time on the throne, just when he was booted off, he was left with minimal powers through the Codex. The comic that came out when DST was fully released showed that he attempted shadow magic on his own (without the codex) but failed. In my opinion, his time on the throne "taught" him the full powers of shadow magic, and made him frail, however his powers were severely limited to whatever he was able to channel through the codex.

I'd also say Wilson had powers when he was on the throne, but was not on it long enough to learn them. Charlie then removed him, took his powers, and sent him back to the main area of the Constant.

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I think his powers absolutely come from his time on the throne, just when he was booted off, he was left with minimal powers through the Codex. The comic that came out when DST was fully released showed that he attempted shadow magic on his own (without the codex) but failed. In my opinion, his time on the throne "taught" him the full powers of shadow magic, and made him frail, however his powers were severely limited to whatever he was able to channel through the codex.

I'd also say Wilson had powers when he was on the throne, but was not on it long enough to learn them. Charlie then removed him, took his powers, and sent him back to the main area of the Constant.

Then how do you explain his triumphant form and his ability to manipulate shadow creatures before entering the constant?

He attempted shadow magic and failed because that magic is nightmare throne power not codex umbra power. codex umbra power is shadow magic before he got on the throne and after he got off. they're both consistent. I don't see him doing anything off the throne that he didn't also do it before the throne.

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8 minutes ago, wefoij said:

Then how do you explain his triumphant form and his ability to manipulate shadow creatures before entering the constant?

He attempted shadow magic and failed because that magic is nightmare throne power not codex umbra power. codex umbra power is shadow magic before he got on the throne and after he got off. they're both consistent. I don't see him doing anything off the throne that he didn't also do it before the throne.

I guess in theory someone could learn some shadow magic from the codex. I didn't think that the shadows during his performances would actually be tangible though, at least not until they pulled him in, which we know that he wasn't the one doing that. I figured he was only able to make visuals beforehand, where as now he can make workers.

I hope they crank out these reworks because he is definitely either last or second to last and so much needs to be answered about this man lol

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1 minute ago, wefoij said:

Then how do you explain his triumphant form

All other triumphant forms show how they would look when they have been full tainted by the power of the nightmare throne. Maxwell's, as he was already tainted by the throne, shows how he was before the taintiening and thus why he looks so wildly different in that one compared to the other skills. It also makes sense from a design perspective as it allows him to stand out from a lore perspective.

4 minutes ago, wefoij said:

his ability to manipulate shadow creatures before entering the constant?

except he didn't? From the 5th puzzle's jornel entry, it makes it pretty clear that he couldn't control them at all. Their is also the fact that while trapped on the throne, he learned to stay dapper as the same shadows did something bad to him, again while he was on the throne.  What he was most likely doing was manipulating the willless nightmare fuel using the codex as a form of catalyst as all interactions that we have seen him do with live shadows seem to end in disaster.

I think it fairly safe to assume that Maxwell was always physically frail, even before the Codex was introduced to him. From what we have seen of him during that time, he has always been fairly lanky which is common to represent that a person is fairly weak from a design perspective. Thus said frailness most likely wouldn't just suddenly gain muscular dystrophy. A more safe assumption is that the fraility came from his time on the throne, thus meaning that it either made or exacerbated Maxwell's weak body.

From the other character's quotes about the Codex Umbra, it safe to say that the thing gives off the wacky vibes that may be evil. However, it seems that nobody else seems to be able to use it even if they want. Walter specifically says how he wants to read the book to learn "magic tricks", but thus makes the question of why he couldn't just read it himself? Furthermore, Wanda, the shadow magic aficionado, doesn't seem to be able to use it even with her vast expertise of the magic. From this, I extrapolate that the book can seemingly only be used by Maxwell for one reason or another. Further more, it seems that Maxwell requires the Codex to act as a form of catalyst for his magic. His seemingly can't make the clones without it, and seems that he needs to offer up a fraction of his mind to give the nightmare fuel sentience (with the tool requirement being the thing they use).

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1 minute ago, Soumyadip543 said:

image.png.4b0673cfce1579a95c2e84d9431b38a7.png

According to Wortox Maxwell doesnt know how to use it. I think there is more codex umbra can do but I guess not everything can be learned by humans. 

Might be a interesting short with Wortox and Maxwell if Klei wants to show off the power of the Codex Umbra.

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2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

All other triumphant forms show how they would look when they have been full tainted by the power of the nightmare throne. Maxwell's, as he was already tainted by the throne, shows how he was before the taintiening and thus why he looks so wildly different in that one compared to the other skills. It also makes sense from a design perspective as it allows him to stand out from a lore perspective.

except he didn't? From the 5th puzzle's jornel entry, it makes it pretty clear that he couldn't control them at all. Their is also the fact that while trapped on the throne, he learned to stay dapper as the same shadows did something bad to him, again while he was on the throne.  What he was most likely doing was manipulating the willless nightmare fuel using the codex as a form of catalyst as all interactions that we have seen him do with live shadows seem to end in disaster.

I think it fairly safe to assume that Maxwell was always physically frail, even before the Codex was introduced to him. From what we have seen of him during that time, he has always been fairly lanky which is common to represent that a person is fairly weak from a design perspective. Thus said frailness most likely wouldn't just suddenly gain muscular dystrophy. A more safe assumption is that the fraility came from his time on the throne, thus meaning that it either made or exacerbated Maxwell's weak body.

From the other character's quotes about the Codex Umbra, it safe to say that the thing gives off the wacky vibes that may be evil. However, it seems that nobody else seems to be able to use it even if they want. Walter specifically says how he wants to read the book to learn "magic tricks", but thus makes the question of why he couldn't just read it himself? Furthermore, Wanda, the shadow magic aficionado, doesn't seem to be able to use it even with her vast expertise of the magic. From this, I extrapolate that the book can seemingly only be used by Maxwell for one reason or another. Further more, it seems that Maxwell requires the Codex to act as a form of catalyst for his magic. His seemingly can't make the clones without it, and seems that he needs to offer up a fraction of his mind to give the nightmare fuel sentience (with the tool requirement being the thing they use).

1. Check out all of the william carter puzzles. He has his triumphant form long before he got into the constant.

2. He got better at controlling shadows. The only reason he couldn't was lack of understanding/practice and that's why it backfired on him. Even wortox says he doesn't know what he's doing. He still can't control shadows, only create shadow puppets so its clear his ability to fragment his mind comes from the codex umbra and not the nightmare throne.

3. Why can't everyone craft spider eggs with spider glands, silk, and paper? Why can only webber do that? It's confirmed webber and his spider half are male. It's the exact same reason why the other survivors can't spend the next 10 years studying the codex umbra to use it. Or study Wanda's time piece and build it for themselves. It's a game mechanic limitation, not a lore limitation.

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3 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

However, it seems that nobody else seems to be able to use it even if they want.

 

3 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

From this, I extrapolate that the book can seemingly only be used by Maxwell for one reason or another.

 

I don't think max is the only one who can use the book. Wickerbottom also shows that she knows a lot about magic, even to the point where both her and max are equal in magic prowess in the forge and in base game. Iirc, Max is the only other character that can use Wickers books. While Wickerbottom can't use max's book in game... she never says that she has problems using it nor even wanting to use it

And while this is for another book, Webber does say with the petrifying tome that he can read it, but he can't make it work.

Spoiler

web.png.08db1e7d942724c4a7d4b9b0cc03e735.png

 

It could be possible that what activates those books can be cause by knowing how they work...

But it could also be have a certain amount of magical abilities. 

But what really sells me one the former than the latter is how Wortox says Max doesn't know how to use the codex, despite the fact that Wortox himself can't use it.

tl;dr Wickerbottom might be able to use the codex.

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3 hours ago, Soumyadip543 said:

image.png.4b0673cfce1579a95c2e84d9431b38a7.png

According to Wortox Maxwell doesnt know how to use it. I think there is more codex umbra can do but I guess not everything can be learned by humans. 

My impression is that it's the shadows controlling Maxwell and not the other way around. At times they play along with him, to lure and toy with him and lead him into more sinister misery. It became evident in Don't Starve that Maxwell ultimately didn't have control over the shadow magic. At the beginning when he started dabbling with the shadow magic he was driven by ambition and imprudent curiosity, disregarding the bad things the shadows seemed to bring. Charlie was rather a victim of circumstance and for some reason the nightmare realm interacts very differently with her.

 

Edit:

By now he might have some direct control over it, however, considering all the unlikely things that happened in A New Reign. Because of this... let's call it an exception, since the presumed eternal cycle of the Shadow Throne was broken, Maxwell might have been locked in a state between being free and mundane and chained and magical, which is where he is now. For the same reason it doesn't feel likely that any of the other survivors trapped within the Constant could pick up the Codex Umbra and get the same results.

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I  think the shadows personally chose Maxwell to get the book, and somehow staged events that would let him find it. They then gave him the ability to use it to exploit his greed and ultimately let them invade the world.

 

What Maxwell knows now is just what he taught himself on the throne.

Also consider

''I don't know what they want, they just watch...unless you get too close..then...well, there's a reason I'm so dapper.''

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8 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

shows how he was before the taintiening and thus why he looks so wildly different in that one compared to the other skills. It also makes sense from a design perspective as it allows him to stand out from a lore perspective.

Yeah, I always liked how a little time on the Nightmare Throne magically fixed his eyesight, and removed his need for glasses. Maybe that's why Wagstaff wants the Throne so bad

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4 hours ago, DaZoul said:

Yeah, I always liked how a little time on the Nightmare Throne magically fixed his eyesight, and removed his need for glasses. Maybe that's why Wagstaff wants the Throne so bad

He stopped wearing the glasses long before he sat on the throne.

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...oh. I'm reminded of something that occured to me thinking about a Maxwell update concept. May as well mention it here...

 

The Codex Umbra, via the William Carter puzzles, contains what turned out to be Ancient text, ala our Metheus discoveries. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what the M stands for...it seems likely that it's just Metheus's book.
Metheus was hypothesized to be one of the Ancient figures featured throughout the murals, due to how Fuelweaver sometimes calls out to them on death.
(I still learn toward Metheus being the one that was super corrupted by shadows and """died"""...mostly because it'd be a brilliant identity for whatever's possessing Charlie.)

Point being, the Codex either originally belonged to an Ancient, or someone who discovered and extensively studied Ancient ruins.
As such, it's inseparably bound to the shadows of the Constant, like the old Throne.

 

The Throne itself is described as a Gateway by Wagstaff, drawing in the power of the shadows from...wherever beyond the Gateways that the Ancients were originally tapping into; either engineered as a lesser access point, or turned into one upon the Gateway's destabilization.
I imagine that the Codex is a similar case; a miniature Gateway.
At least...we've seen it function that way.
The Great Maxwell's last performance.

 

All that really matters though:
The Codex isn't just a book, it's a Gateway; one that can transport things between worlds, be it Shadows, people, or the book itself.
The feats that Maxwell can perform are impressive, but it's unlikely that he'd be retain much without the Codex in hand.

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Ok so lets say a character reaches the end of adventure mode and meets maxwell.

How many of you are saying that if that character studies the codex umbra under maxwell's tutelage (who he gives for free because he's that desperate for company and wants that damn gramophone to stay off) for months? years? he/she can't create shadow puppets, can't craft a 2nd codex umbra by spending nightmare fuel and health, and can't achieve his/her triumphant form.

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Food for thought- Charlie can do everything Maxwell could AND Better and Maxwell is still the one carrying around the Codex Umbra.

Its therefore quite plausible that the Codex Umbra is only being used as dimensional gate, something the shadows can come in & out of, ironically enough- the same way Wagstaff created a passageway to pull the constant spider seen in Webber’s Animated Short in & out of.

If any of you have ever watched any of the evil dead movies, the Necronamricon summons demons, but those demons can then posses OTHER Objects..

I believe that the Codex Umbra is just another one of those many type of devices, and that in actuality- the powers aren’t coming from the book itself at all.. but rather what whatever WANTS you to think is coming from the book.

Proof of this is that Maxwell still has the Codex Umbra in his possession currently, but CHARLIE can perform more Shadow Magic then poor Maxwell ever dreamed of.

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3 hours ago, wefoij said:

he/she can't create shadow puppets, can't craft a 2nd codex umbra by spending nightmare fuel and health, and can't achieve his/her triumphant form.

Yes, because they haven't sat on the throne and had prolonged (by that I mean like centuries or at least equivalent) to gain its knowledge and some of its power. The book may explain some of the more basic things, but the throne is where your going to learn all the properties and history of nightmare fuel. Even if it did hold literally all the information, it still wouldn't result in anything because they haven't actually gained the power to do so. To give a comparison, I could know everything about a 1000lbs dumbell, its atomic structure, its density, its kill count, everything. However, I still couldn't lift the dumbell because I haven't gotten the power to do so just by researching it.

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21 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Yes, because they haven't sat on the throne and had prolonged (by that I mean like centuries or at least equivalent) to gain its knowledge and some of its power. The book may explain some of the more basic things, but the throne is where your going to learn all the properties and history of nightmare fuel. Even if it did hold literally all the information, it still wouldn't result in anything because they haven't actually gained the power to do so. To give a comparison, I could know everything about a 1000lbs dumbell, its atomic structure, its density, its kill count, everything. However, I still couldn't lift the dumbell because I haven't gotten the power to do so just by researching it.

Then how come maxwell cured his eyesight without sitting on the throne? and acquire his triumphant form? and conjure shadow creatures for his magic act? And why does he need the codex now to do any shadow puppetry if the nightmare throne was the one that granted him his power?

You said to look at his 5th puzzle? Look at it. He has a poster of him in his triumphant form conjuring terrorbeaks. And the 6th puzzle has him conjuring the terrorbeak from his hand.

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50 minutes ago, wefoij said:

Then how come maxwell cured his eyesight without sitting on the throne?

In the posters, Maxwell is seen without his glasses, yes, but that doesn't mean that his eyesight has been cured. He could be either short or long sighted, but that doesn't mean that he can't do an act he, almost certainly, practiced several times without them. Plus, wikipedia states that contact lenses were made in 1887, while the wc puzzles take place around 1901-1906. While it's not the versions commonly seen and used today, they did still existed and thus could be a logical explanation as to why he isn't wearing glasses.

58 minutes ago, wefoij said:

and acquire his triumphant form?

That's an outfit. Unlike the other triumphant form that use more wild examples of fuel use (like Wormwood's Giant Eye, Wigfrid's Shadow Armor, and Wurt's sharkness), Maxwell is wearing a totally normal suit. While it could be magical in origin, there is literally no reason to believe is anything more than a suit. If you want to get reaaaaallllly specific, the ingame model seems to be a more purplish shade, while the ones in the posters have a grayish shade. Their is nothing pointing to this being his triumphant form beyond the part where he likes suits.

1 hour ago, wefoij said:

and conjure shadow creatures for his magic act?

 As seen with the Hollowed Nights title screen, Maxwell can nightmare fuel look like whatever the hell he wants, as seen by him making a hand with the codex. This is also seen in the final act (the supposed highest amount of power he would have before being sucked in) as the first part of his act was to do 2 lines with a shadow trail. I would also like to mention how spectacularly it failed when he did try to pull in an actual shadow out of the codex. Though if you want to argue semantics, the shadow he pulled out in poster from puzzle 6 is a Mr. Skits which is important. As seen by the Willow Short, the terrorbeaks are actively hostile towards people without any previous provocation, however Mr. Skits has been seen to be entirely passive, running away as the player approaches. If this is what Maxwell would be the main part of his act, it would explain why it didn't goes so wrong when he did it before.

1 hour ago, wefoij said:

And why does he need the codex now to do any shadow puppetry if the nightmare throne was the one that granted him his power?

Again, he may not be able to use the magic because he literally doesn't have the power to do so otherwise. From how we see him use the Codex , it's clear he uses it as a form of catalyst, even in the real world. He has to directly pull the shadows from the book to summon them, so it's clear that even reading alone won't result in much. Plus, it's clear that the pupperty wasn't all he could do. He somehow put himself in the portrait in the 8th puzzle and somehow also got out of it. I would like to show how this is a moment where he used magic without having the codex on him, showing how he was indeed learning how to do magic without it, but doing so nearly killed or severely exhausted him, as seen when he warded off the shadows hands from Charlie. It could be that the throne gave him the metaphorical spark that allowed him to dabble in magic, but not to do much if he didn't grow it himself, which he did, which requires the use of the codex as a catalyst for magic.

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