Maxwell Isn’t (out of your specific fact) poggers, smart, and smells good

[StretchVanb]

3 hours ago, Beeremy the III said:

The only real way I can think to balance it is how Terraria does it. The more players on a server, the more max health a boss has. Maybe even just the amount of players in the vicinity of a boss, so that Wormwood on a farming spree doesn't have to leave.

PLEEEASE THIS

 

Im not sure about how I would feel about it being off by default though. This is sort of a nitpick but making the game easier through world settings typically feels like “cheating” and enabling health scaling is one of those things that probably shouldn’t feel like “cheating” but idk.

Quote

 

Honestly I think Wolfgang being "OP" is a fairly dated take. He's just boring to play IMO.

I agree with boss HP being wayyy bloated though. There really needs to be some system in place to make them more enjoyable skill-based encounters and not just massive HP walls that require a hotbar full of items.

 

This too. But honestly, most of the bosses are fine in difficulty. They just… take a really long time, kinda. I can’t really think of anything worse about them.

[Zeklo]

13 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

This too. But honestly, most of the bosses are fine in difficulty. They just… take a really long time, kinda. I can’t really anything worse about them.

Oh yeah I think they're pretty good difficulty wise, but the massive HP pool just drags out how much resources you need to bring and extends the "window of failure" (for kiting). So like, instead: challenging kiting for 6 minutes. It's moderate kiting for 20 minutes.

Now obviously the fight time changes depending on player count, but I really feel like there's a better way it could be handled.

[Frosty_Mentos]

ooga booga wolfgang eat fud and have his arms big 

yea he's a bit too bland to play as, while Wigfrid is just being a woman who would smack her head into something to prove a point - Wolfgang hopefully on refresh would have more interesting hunger mechanics or something to do with his mighty form to perform well. Hope he doesn't get any nerfs either cause that'd be anticlimactic for a strongman lol.

[Cowboy Maxwell]

After doing a stream with some of my friends I've come to enjoy playing Wortox. Though my role in the group was mainly designated healer. It was fine though. I also managed to bring back lots of monster meat and glands in my quest for souls. I felt appreciated.

[Gi-Go]

To say Wolfgang is boring is to say don't starve is boring. Who needs gimmicks when you can enjoy default experience of the game while being stronger and faster? He is like Wilson except he is so good you don't have time to get bored of anything you do. 

[minespatch]

6 hours ago, LinknAllie said:

Damn why do people hate on Wolfgang so much.  

Elitists... I guess? 

[StretchVanb]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

To say Wolfgang is boring is to say don't starve is boring. Who needs gimmicks when you can enjoy default experience of the game while being stronger and faster? He is like Wilson except he is so good you don't have time to get bored of anything you do. 

He’s boring *compared* to other characters. No one’s saying he literally makes the game less fun, just less interesting compared to other characters.

[.]

10 hours ago, Beeremy the III said:

too op to be fun

10 hours ago, Beeremy the III said:

I like playing Wigfrid

Pick one.

 

[SecretPizzaMan]

16 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

NOOOOOO SOMEONE VOTED FOR WORMWOOD.

But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my Wormwood go now, that'll be the end of it.

You'll never catch me alive!

15 hours ago, LinknAllie said:

Damn why do people hate on Wolfgang so much.  

Hes big and dumb, and not in the fun hahaha I break bee with potato!

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Honestly I think Wolfgang being "OP" is a fairly dated take. He's just boring to play IMO.

I agree with boss HP being wayyy bloated though. There really needs to be some system in place to make them more enjoyable skill-based encounters and not just massive HP walls that require a hotbar full of items.

i think klaus, CC and fw are the way to go for raid bosses meanwhile little bosses like antlion and moose goose are examples of fun fights with interesting mechanics

we need more epic tier mobs like vargs, ewecus or beequeen. We get many raid bosses and only lord of the fruit flies as low tier giant

[StretchVanb]

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i think klaus, CC and fw are the way to go for raid bosses meanwhile little bosses like antlion and moose goose are examples of fun fights with interesting mechanics

we need more epic tier mobs like vargs, ewecus or beequeen. We get many raid bosses and only lord of the fruit flies as low tier giant

I’ve never fought Klaus, so take this with a (tablespoon) grain of salt, but based on what I’ve seen they’re probably a great example of this problem. Klaus takes *ages* to kill without Wolfgang or some other high-DPS character like Wanda (or Webber, sometimes). It’s not harder, just more boring and less likely that a player is going to give enough of a care to try.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

I’ve never fought Klaus, so take this with a (tablespoon) grain of salt, but based on what I’ve seen they’re probably a great example of this problem. Klaus takes *ages* to kill without Wolfgang or some other high-DPS character like Wanda (or Webber, sometimes). It’s not harder, just more boring and less likely that a player is going to give enough of a care to try.

i think you are cofunsing klaus to other boss. Klaus is one of the raid bosses with less hp and more variety of atacks so isnt tedious. With a default character the fight last arround 3/4 or 1 ingame day? i might be wrong. With wolf or wanda is just so quick

[ShadowDuelist]

I’m surprised so many people voted Wickerbottom as “dislike”, she’s super fun if her perks are used right, and among my top 3 favorites to play as even today when her rework is due still.

Her late game is kinda meh since after you crafted all her books you don’t really need her anymore, and can safely change to Maxwell. But up to that point she’s awesome, specially for solo play.

[StretchVanb]

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i think you are cofunsing klaus to other boss. Klaus is one of the raid bosses with less hp and more variety of atacks so isnt tedious. With a default character the fight last arround 3/4 or 1 ingame day? i might be wrong. With wolf or wanda is just so quick

It’s not really the time it takes to actually beat the boss, but the time it takes to collect the resources. Wanda and Wolfgang both have ways to avoid using tons of weapons, but most characters need to make like 5 dark swords or 8 spears.

 

To be fair, though, a hambat can get around this with Klaus (probably), but with Dfly or higher health bosses I imagine that becomes impractical 

[Dextops]

13 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

To be fair, though, a hambat can get around this with Klaus (probably), but with Dfly or higher health bosses I imagine that becomes impractical

it doesn't a hambat works for most bosses other than toadstool and its always a good option

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

It’s not really the time it takes to actually beat the boss, but the time it takes to collect the resources. Wanda and Wolfgang both have ways to avoid using tons of weapons, but most characters need to make like 5 dark swords or 8 spears.

 

To be fair, though, a hambat can get around this with Klaus (probably), but with Dfly or higher health bosses I imagine that becomes impractical 

maybe for beequeen you will need to make a fresh one in the middle of the fight depending of the method but hambat is the way to go for most bosses until you have access to stupid amounts of dark swords or glass cutter. Also there is the morning star that works wonders for surface bosses in spring and cave bosses in spring/winter

[Beeremy the III]

9 hours ago, Karitha said:

Pick one.

 

I pick the fact that wigfrid's downside is actually noticable and is 100% more fun than eating food and becoming ungodly.

[StretchVanb]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

maybe for beequeen you will need to make a fresh one in the middle of the fight depending of the method but hambat is the way to go for most bosses until you have access to stupid amounts of dark swords or glass cutter. Also there is the morning star that works wonders for surface bosses in spring and cave bosses in spring/winter

This would be the end of the discussion if it weren’t for armor.

 

It takes 14

Spoiler

27500/80(rough average of hambat damage x times player attacks per second) = 343 seconds and in 343 seconds you take 343 times the average dfly dps of 28.125 and 750 (night armor durability) divided by 28.125 = 26 (roughly), so the length of the battle at shortest possible time (343 seconds) divided by 26 = 13.2 or 14 total night armor required to not die very quickly at some point during the fight without kiting.

suits of night armor to tank the dragonfly, which would be *fine* if it weren’t for the sheer impracticality of kiting it. It’s just not a boss built for a single player or a small group. Wolfgang significantly reduces this number by 

1. Increasing your speed and allowing you to actually kite it

and

2. Increasing your damage reduction at the cost of no durability by 25% (if I remember correctly), effectively making any of your armor last 25% longer.

AND

3. Increase your damage heavily, giving you a much higher dps and roughly halving(!), if I remember correctly, the damage you take during the fight.

 

To be fair Warly and Wanda can also do the third thing, but really all that shows (in my opinion) is that Klei understands how important high DPS is now to actually play.

 

TLDR: more damage equals less resources used, resources used means more time taken, more time taken means spending 2 hours farming nightmares to get enough nightmare fuel for night armor or spending 3 hours chopping down trees for log suits.

 

Actually, I’m considering Marble Suits again based on these numbers.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

This would be the end of the discussion if it weren’t for armor.

 

It takes 14

  Hide contents

27500/80(rough average of hambat damage x times player attacks per second) = 343 seconds and in 343 seconds you take 343 times the average dfly dps of 28.125 and 750 (night armor durability) divided by 28.125 = 26 (roughly), so the length of the battle at shortest possible time (343 seconds) divided by 26 = 13.2 or 14 total night armor required to not die very quickly at some point during the fight without kiting.

suits of night armor to tank the dragonfly, which would be *fine* if it weren’t for the sheer impracticality of kiting it. It’s just not a boss built for a single player or a small group. Wolfgang significantly reduces this number by 

1. Increasing your speed and allowing you to actually kite it

and

2. Increasing your damage reduction at the cost of no durability by 25% (if I remember correctly), effectively making any of your armor last 25% longer.

AND

3. Increase your damage heavily, giving you a much higher dps and roughly halving(!), if I remember correctly, the damage you take during the fight.

the game gives you tools to reduce the grinding (followers, fire staffs, sleeping, gun powder, darts, celestial portal, etc) and the experience also makes you reduce the cost of each fight

i get your point but isnt that bad and less when you get 100% of the loot without needing to share anything and BQ loot isnt a joke

[StretchVanb]

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the game gives you tools to reduce the grinding (followers, fire staffs, sleeping, gun powder, darts, celestial portal, etc) and the experience also makes you reduce the cost of each fight

i get your point but isnt that bad and less when you get 100% of the loot without needing to share anything and BQ loot isnt a joke

Followers are nothing to Dfly thanks to her numerous AoE attacks and, to be honest, the only real use for Celestial Portal is to swap to Wolfgang, Wanda, or Warly for the higher dps, which brings us back to the whole "fighting raid bosses is only practical with specific characters while solo" problem. I mean, you can farm nightmare fuel by swapping to Maxwell, I guess, or use Winona to make catapults, but that doesn't sound much less annoying than just killing nightmare monsters.

Your point about loot makes sense. I'm not sure what would fix it.

[Beeremy the III]

Why WX78 and Wolfgang need to bathe in the waters of the rework fountain.

Part 1: Teamplay

WX78 and Wolfgang aren't team players. This is a fact. Every other character in the game can do something for the team.

Wilson gives beard hair, an item that's hard to grind because of the drop rates of those stupid beardlings i hate them i hate them i hate them give me beard hair not nightmare fuel AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Moving on. Willow gives Bernie and lighters, Wendy gives sanity with the sisturn, so on, so forth.

You may notice I skipped Wolfgang. Now, before I absolutely own big head over there with my words of power, I have to preface that Wolfgang IS getting a rework. These problems will probably be fixed, so you can take everything about Wolfgang as entertainment, since it's probably going to be fixed. WX78, however, is also getting a rework because everyone else is. But that's not confirmed by Klei devs to be coming in the next month or so, so I'm gonna flap my mouth until the goblin in my head is satisfied.

Alright, so Wolfgang kills raid bosses faster. That's his team contribution. WX78's team contribution is being really good at rushing ruins, which everyone else can do, and giving light if he gets charged via lightning. Also he eats your gears. 

Every other character (except for Woodie, but he's at least better than Wolf and WX) has something unique to give to the team that no other character can do for the same cost. Wurt gets merms for the price of food, Maxwell gets workers for the price of nfuel, so on and so forth.

Wolf and WX just... They just...

Part 2: kill everything

alright fellow wolfgang and wx78 mains, today we're going to play wolfgang/wx78.

ok so we're gonna eat food/gears and then kill this spider

alright guys that was swag. now we're gonna reflect on why life is meaningless and pain is eternal.

alright guys that's the end of my wolfgang/wx guide. the most important part is to eat food/gears and hold f. see you next time

Part 3: How would I, someone who clearly is the best person to ask about game design, fix it?

Give Wolfgang the ability to throw people, as another fourmgoer who I forgot the name of, sorry to you if you are reading this, suggested. Let him perform circus acts to boost other people's sanity, or let them use it to like, I dunno, train or something?

For WX78 I saw this really neat suggestion by, again, someone I forgot the name of. Sincerest apologies to you! Basically it let WX78 upgrade with gems and gears, with the gems providing beneficial effects to his team and him. Another suggestion by, woah, you'll never see this coming, someone I forgot the name of (I AM SO SORRY) says to let WX78 get stronger using AI, and craft gears for the team to use, at the cost of his AI.

Alright, that's it. Have a good one.

[StretchVanb]

I hope it doesn't look like I'm saying wolfgang shouldn't be reworked. I'm just saying that right now he fulfills a role that is, to be honest, filled by more interesting characters by this point, like Wanda and Warly.

[Nettalie]

20 hours ago, Beeremy the III said:

The only real way I can think to balance it is how Terraria does it. The more players on a server, the more max health a boss has. Maybe even just the amount of players in the vicinity of a boss, so that Wormwood on a farming spree doesn't have to leave.

Either that or just generally have bosses' hp be within a "lower" range (about 10 to 15k at most maybe) and have some other secondary element scale with more players, like Klaus' Krampi summon which scales according to the number of players within the vicinity.

That's the kind of thing I'd personally love to see more of with bosses because this way they're still fairly challenging in group settings without needing to give them so much hp it takes solo players several ingame days just to take down a single boss. Also I think it's just kinda neat and feels a bit more dynamic than changing a stat directly, that kind of thing is always a bit boring to me.

Now I know the philosophy behind these bosses is that they're supposed to be almost """impossible""" to do solo and to just be multiplayer content, but maybe I'm just too stuck within my own opinion because I personally never like this kind of thing. Especially when it's in a sandbox game.
On one hand the game tells you to just go nuts and do whatever, go wherever, etc. but then on the other it tells you that this content is off limits because your playstyle of playing alone means it'll take ages unless you prep so long for it or set up farms to prep stuff, it can just feel like a drag a lot of the time.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

53 minutes ago, StretchVanb said:

Followers are nothing to Dfly thanks to her numerous AoE attacks

only her stomp while enrage is aoe, her slap is single target so followers actually work very well if you use the pan flute in the right moment

also they work for beequeen for the same thing, BQ only does single target hits and arent so strong

[StretchVanb]

21 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

only her stomp while enrage is aoe, her slap is single target so followers actually work very well if you use the pan flute in the right moment

also they work for beequeen for the same thing, BQ only does single target hits and arent so strong

Whoa, you learn something new everyday. This is going to be very useful, thank you.