Wanda and Celestial Portal

[ShadowDuelist]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont think so, it will be so annoying

what if i want to change character just to have a decoration, i would need to wait to change to the character i actually play in that world just because people use perks like if they were playing with more players?

If it was used for decorations only it would be totally fine and nobody would mind, but sadly (and you can see examples on some streams) I’d dare to say 95% of its uses are to abuse character mechanics and to avoid character cons entirely.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

If it was used for decorations only it would be totally fine and nobody would mind, but sadly (and you can see examples on some streams) I’d dare to say 95% of its uses are to abuse character mechanics and to avoid character cons entirely.

so i get punish because some people do FW in 1 min or bee queen no damage with catapults? lets fix then exploits like AG pilar cheese+shadow cheese piece boat cheese+ FW houndious cheese so people cant get 2 bone armors without dangers before nerfing a tool that can be used in many ways. They can fix bosses not knowing how to interact with boats. They can also fix walking in the void for almost free. They can nerf wendy, wx and wigfrid if we are worried about how easy can survive in the costant these characters should be nerfed too, right? 

there is many things that can be before balancing the portal, an optional tool, if you are really worried about the game mechanics but the portal... if the portal is op then means that the game isnt desinged for multiplayer because using different perks is what you can do playing with others, even better, you can mix them like wortox+wormwood living log farm, thing that you cant do with the portal alone

i dont use the portal for making my life easier but like i dont care about dumb cheese methods i dont care about how people use the portal

if klei want to nerf the portal im ok but not in a way that will disturb players that doesnt mess with mechanics that disturb other players for some reason

[MondayNight]

If there was something to be done about "character swapping abuse" via Celestial Portal, imo that should be a 20-days cool-down on Spawn Gate akin to raid bosses' mechanic - simple and neat.

[ShadowDuelist]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

<snip>

But that reasoning applies to everything that is abused. And the answer is yes,  those who don't abuse it will get punished by the vast majority of players that do abuse it.

I rarely use the portal either (or not to bypass cons at least) but that doesn't take away the problem with it. I know it's probably too late to nerf it at this point since a lot of people have gotten used to using it as a valid strategy nowadays and will see it as a horrible change, so I guess adding it as an optional thing in the world settings maybe could help:

EG:

Celestial Portal cooldown:

• none (as it works now)
• small (20 days or so, This could be the default option IMO)
• medium (35 days, half a year)
• long (70 days, one ingame year)
• Character swapping disabled

As world events, this could probably be changed at any point too. So those of us who really dislike players abusing it, can set it with the harder options, while those who don't abuse it by default (or just want to keep using the “Wolfgang on boss fights, Wendy for everything else” strategy) can use the "no cooldown" option still.

38 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

If there was something to be done about "character swapping abuse" via Celestial Portal, imo that should be a 20-days cool-down on Spawn Gate akin to raid bosses' mechanic - simple and neat.

This

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

But that reasoning applies to everything that is abused. And the answer is yes,  those who don't abuse it will get punished by the vast majority of players that do abuse it.

I rarely use the portal either (or not to bypass cons at least) but that doesn't take away the problem with it. I know it's probably too late to nerf it at this point since a lot of people have gotten used to using it as a valid strategy nowadays and will see it as a horrible change, so I guess adding it as an optional thing in the world settings maybe could help:

EG:

Celestial Portal cooldown:

• none (as it works now)
• small (20 days or so, This could be the default option IMO)
• medium (35 days, half a year)
• long (70 days, one ingame year)
• Character swapping disabled

As world events, this could probably be changed at any point too. So those of us who really dislike players abusing it, can set it with the harder options, while those who don't abuse it by default can use the "no cooldown" option still.

This

im still not getting the point of getting punished getting stuck with a character that i only wanted to play to craft balloons, sistrums or bateries

just increase the damn cost, is just 1 moonrock or change how it works to dont be exploiteable by weeber or wanda to create expensive items (like someone would need more spider eggs and doesnt make time pieces cheaper, just obtainable in a lazy way)

having CD on the portal just because someone i dont know and dont care uses volt goat jelly or catapults

or just refresh winona to make her interesting and add longer buffs to warly (like if warly wasnt played for being one of the more interesting characters already)

but having CD is just a mistake. A weeber player will be forced to make his base in a way that would allow him to use the base without being annoying if he/she wants to use another character for whatever. Same applies for wurt or for regular characters building pig houses bur being limited where to build them in case they want to make few merm houses in the swamp or needs some swamp turf

the settings doesnt change anything. People who abuse the portal will keep doing it and people who dont wont need a setting to add more CD 

[QuartzBeam]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

im still not getting the point of getting punished getting stuck with a character that i only wanted to play to craft balloons, sistrums or bateries

just increase the damn cost, is just 1 moonrock or change how it works to dont be exploiteable by weeber or wanda to create expensive items (like someone would need more spider eggs and doesnt make time pieces cheaper, just obtainable in a lazy way)

having CD on the portal just because someone i dont know and dont care uses volt goat jelly or catapults

or just refresh winona to make her interesting and add longer buffs to warly (like if warly wasnt played for being one of the more interesting characters already)

but having CD is just a mistake. A weeber player will be forced to make his base in a way that would allow him to use the base without being annoying if he/she wants to use another character for whatever. Same applies for wurt or for regular characters building pig houses bur being limited where to build them in case they want to make few merm houses in the swamp or needs some swamp turf

the settings doesnt change anything. People who abuse the portal will keep doing it and people who dont wont need a setting to add more CD 

What's that? You wanted to switch to Wurt so you can craft Marsh Turf? Well, have fun playing her for 20 days!

[ShadowDuelist]

1 minute ago, QuartzBeam said:

What's that? You wanted to switch to Wurt so you can craft Marsh Turf? Well, have fun playing her for 20 days!

Like if 20 days for the game to survive with a different character was a long time 

It’s also a nice “penalty” that will force creative thinking into adapting the player’s gameplay to whatever character they are temporally stuck with.

Or just disable the soft lock on world settings. That’s my point with adding the world setting option.
 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

What's that? You wanted to switch to Wurt so you can craft Marsh Turf? Well, have fun playing her for 20 days!

so fun!

lets scrub over people that want to decorate because someone in one side of the world kills FW with shotius cheese is annoyed because other guy in other country is using volt goat jelly+catapults+wolfgang to kill him

i love human beings

[Frosty_Mentos]

Time pieces are useless after a certain amount of watches you make. Only other watches that you may find changing character with to get time pieces is useful is for rift watches, but that also requires walrus tusks annoying.

Plenty of effort for either doing ruins or upgrading portal, there's really no off balanced thing here since there's only few things you can craft with time pieces. There's nothing more, people don't understand how pointless it becomes on getting more of them, geez...

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Like if 20 days for the game to survive with a different character was a long time 

It’s also a nice “penalty” that will force creative thinking into adapting the player’s gameplay to whatever character they are temporally stuck with.

Or just disable the soft lock on world settings. That’s my point with adding the world setting option.

It's not a nice penalty. It's a pain in the butt. 20 days in game is equal to 2.5 hours of real life.

Why the hell should I be forced to waste 2.5 hours of my life playing a character I've no interest in? To appease a bunch of armchair developers who can't stand the thought of people playing a sandbox game in a way they personally don't like?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, ShadowDuelist said:

Like if 20 days for the game to survive with a different character was a long time 

It’s also a nice “penalty” that will force creative thinking into adapting the player’s gameplay to whatever character they are temporally stuck with.

Or just disable the soft lock on world settings. That’s my point with adding the world setting option.
 

enough to kill a routine just to craft a sistrum

the other day i changed to wendy to make a "cementery" for my death beefalo as a set piece. Shall i be uneable to do anything in my base or beequeen arena for 20 days just because you dont like people abusing perks like in a multiplayer world or being forced to dont use merm houses because if i want to make some balloons i would be potentialy one shotted by just going throw my base entrance?

lets nerf multiplayer then. Remove servers with more than 2 players, that is op, the game should be only experienced with at most, 2 set of perks 

increasing the cost of the idols would make people that use the portal waste time farming more moonrock so it that way you can compensate all the benefits for using it

forcing people to play something they dont like is like schools trying to make you valorate literature by forcing you read salinger, joyce or shakespear even if you can enjoy them by your own

[ShadowDuelist]

3 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

It's not a nice penalty. It's a pain in the butt. 20 days in game is equal to 2.5 hours of real life.

Why the hell should I be forced to waste 2.5 hours of my life playing a character I've no interest in? To appease a bunch of armchair developers who can't stand the thought of people playing a sandbox game in a way they personally don't like?

Your answer is exactly the type of response I’d be expecting to receive for this type of change.

That’s why I said it’s probably too late for this nerf (it should have been like this from the beginning but now many people got used to changing characters daily and make character differences meaningless) and right now the only solution about the portal is adding it as an optional thing in the world settings.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

That’s why I said it’s probably too late for this nerf

was never time for that kind of annoying nerf

there is better ways to disturb portal exploiters and there are things that makes the game easier (and for totally free not like using the portal) that should be changed before if we will start minding it

[ShadowDuelist]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

enough to kill a routine just to craft a sistrum

the other day i changed to wendy to make a "cementery" for my death beefalo as a set piece. Shall i be uneable to do anything in my base or beequeen arena for 20 days just because you dont like people abusing perks like in a multiplayer world or being forced to dont use merm houses because if i want to make some balloons i would be potentialy one shotted by just going throw my base entrance?

lets nerf multiplayer then. Remove servers with more than 2 players, that is op, the game should be only experienced with at most, 2 set of perks 

increasing the cost of the idols would make people that use the portal waste time farming more moonrock so it that way you can compensate all the benefits for using it

forcing people to play something they dont like is like schools trying to make you valorate literature by forcing you read salinger, joyce or shakespear even if you can enjoy them by your own

My suggestions do not come “because I don’t want you to” you can play however you please. I see it is a balance issue with characters being different becoming meaningless, if you want to play more on the survival aspect and less of the creative aspect.

Again, make it optional and call it a day. You can still use it every minute if you want to, I won’t.

[ALCRD]

Nerfing the character swap itself (either with cooldown , removing it or whatever)

Is a really poorly thought and horrible idea aswell as a HUGE slap in the face for solo players.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, ShadowDuelist said:

Again, make it optional and call it a day. You can still use it every minute if you want to, I won’t.

like it already works? do you need to change a world setting to resist using the portal or what? right now i use it every 1000 days or so my way of playing wont change aswell as the guy who change character even to go to the toilet wont change his way of playing if that setting allows him so i dont see the point of wasting dev time to let the things as they work because people who always complaing about the portal ("waaa warly is useless because others can eat", "waaa someone uses wormwood to produce more food", "waaa someone is farming moonrock instead of thulecite to make wanda watches", etc etc) will still appearing.

I will just make let more d*ck size fights with "look at me i play with portal settings turned off you noob portal default player" and all kind of stupidity

1 minute ago, ShadowDuelist said:

if you want to play more on the survival aspect and less of the creative aspect.

like using the portal affects surviving. You need less work arround to survive as a wilson than using the portal (farming moon rocks to upgrade and mainting idols, crafting/cooking whatever you want to use, etc) to beat the survival part of this game which is just wetness insolation, chill amulet a touch stone and a torch.

And if we talk about fighting bosses dont make me start, the portal is the most balanced "cheese" methods since with an iceflingomatic you can beat 90% of bosses so were is the complaing with needing to farm rocks or voltgoat horns when wes can simply hold F and alt+tab against a perma frozen misery toadstool

most people who abuse the portal are people who wants a less grindy game (not me i enjoy managing my resources) or ratkids which are only imitating a streamer they watch to see how to beat the game after 30 min of playtime

i more in the aspect of being able to have a survival experience with moments of chill building without being punished because people need to force they way to play

 

Just now, ALCRD said:

Nerfing the character swap itself (either with cooldown , removing it or whatever)

Is a really horrible idea and a HUGE slap in the face for solo players.

and not only solo players- When i play with my newbie friends, since they cant survive in late game things, the content we can enjoy is limited until they learn more so i like to change character every X days just to refresh the experience

there is too many damage adding CD on the portal than the things it fixes...

[Szczuku]

The portal is quite broken on Wanda.

Idk about yall but most player probably don't rush ruins or try to speedrun every boss in the game. So waiting a max of 60 days for the celestial orb most likely isn't too much of a problem for them.

In my world I'm at the start of the 4th year and only now, after taking care of my base, I managed to complete the lunar stone event. So with the iridescent gem I can activate the archives and begin farming thulecite fragments. That's the 'indended' way. However I could've simply used the celestial portal, which I completed at day 80, to quickly amass the Time Pieces. Abusing the portal is simply a matter of hound attacks and meteor showers. The key literally costs 1 purple gem and 1 moon rock. 

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

You can craft both the Portal Paraphernalia and the Moon Rock Idol at the Celestial Altar, which can be done in the first autumn.

Wow - til XD  thx.  That's going to help next time I decide to do a multi-char world.  Last time I tried I was over day 100 and finally just spawned the thing with console commands lol

Still - archives are super ez, and gives you the 2-3 extra time pieces you need to full outfit yourself before you're gated by walrus tusk anyway...

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

In my world I'm at the start of the 4th year and only now, after taking care of my base, I managed to complete the lunar stone event. So with the iridescent gem I can activate the archives and begin farming thulecite fragments. That's the 'indended' way. However I could've simply used the celestial portal, which I completed at day 80, to quickly amass the Time Pieces. Abusing the portal is simply a matter of hound attacks and meteor showers. The key literally costs 1 purple gem and 1 moon rock. 

If that was the intended way, why is it to easy to get thulecite from the archives by hammering walls?  Why doesn't it require the ancient science or fountain of knowledge to craft?  Seems to be if they actually "intended" it to be done that way, it would require doing it that way...  Sounds more like you want it to be done that way, and so in your world you did it that way, whether that was intended or not.  Meanwhile I walked through the archives in the first autumn and had my kit done before winter and didn't even touch the CP...

Awful lot of presumptions in this thread about what was intended where the game was clearly coded to *not* require it.  Same as the celestial portal.  The CP isn't a bug like the AG stalling for a few extra hits.  Klei made the portal to enable players to switch characters for whatever reason.  Whether that's decoration, to change up their play style, or to just utilize multiple characters benefits.

If you don't like it, you don't use it.  If I want to play a pacifist game where I disable my attack key and see how well I can make it in the world I don't need *your* attack key disabled too.  If you play with people who do things you don't like, that's between you and those players.  Maybe you put too much weight on "mah skilz" and not enough on "multiplayer sandbox."  Glad I play mostly private games where I don't have to worry about what y'all are doing lol I'd probably set up a wall for Dfly and find it knocked down the next day b/c some tryhard is throwing a tantrum lol (I remember a try hard in the forums talking about how they did this on pub worlds they joined b/c they hated anyone doing dfly without doing it the "real way" lol)

The portal is barely exploitable for wanda - mostly because you only need 2 extra time pieces to fully outfit the character.  Any more and you're actually gated by walrus tusk.  Until a character can spawn from the gate with one of those, don't worry about it.

[Zeklo]

2 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

That’s why I said it’s probably too late for this nerf (it should have been like this from the beginning but now many people got used to changing characters daily and make character differences meaningless) and right now the only solution about the portal is adding it as an optional thing in the world settings.

Exactly this. A 20 day penalty would've been a fine way to 'balance' the Celestial Portal from the when it was first added. It would have made it a means of changing Playstyle rather than temporarily acquiring a perk from a character.

However, the way the Celestial Portal has been introduced [and used] is the latter, and it's not really something that can be backtracked on after all this time. It can't be undone because the way the structure is being used has already been defined, and that kind of penalty contradicts that. In short, it would create an uproar because a portion of players have already gotten used to a single perceived usage.

It's a shame but it is what it is.
The best I can hope for now is that they lock it behind something more difficult than just Moon Rock and a gem.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Szczuku said:

The portal is quite broken on Wanda.

Idk about yall but most player probably don't rush ruins or try to speedrun every boss in the game. So waiting a max of 60 days for the celestial orb most likely isn't too much of a problem for them.

In my world I'm at the start of the 4th year and only now, after taking care of my base, I managed to complete the lunar stone event. So with the iridescent gem I can activate the archives and begin farming thulecite fragments. That's the 'indended' way. However I could've simply used the celestial portal, which I completed at day 80, to quickly amass the Time Pieces. Abusing the portal is simply a matter of hound attacks and meteor showers. The key literally costs 1 purple gem and 1 moon rock. 

Why when the archives have more than enough thulecite fragments than Wanda should ever need for her time pieces and can be grabbed in the first 5 days.

3 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Exactly this. A 20 day penalty would've been a fine way to 'balance' the Celestial Portal from the when it was first added. It would have made it a means of changing Playstyle rather than temporarily acquiring a perk from a character.

However, the way the Celestial Portal has been introduced [and used] is the latter, and it's not really something that can be backtracked on after all this time. It can't be undone because the way the structure is being used has already been defined, and that kind of penalty contradicts that. In short, it would create an uproar because a portion of players have already gotten used to a single perceived usage.

It's a shame but it is what it is.
The best I can hope for now is that they lock it behind something more difficult than just Moon Rock and a gem.

I'm confused why the portal really needs to be balanced what specifically does it break as opposed to the dragonfly wall meta for a very casual example.

Edit: figured I'd add that the thing that really annoys me about this situation is the whole pick swap debate spawned from it as well considering it actively destroyed what should have been Wurt's boon to teammates.

[Gi-Go]

Who

 

 

 

 

 

Cares 

[Parusoid]

19 hours ago, vlagort said:

I have often heard that "Celestial Portal" is an unbalanced thing, I myself did not think so before the appearance of Wanda the fact is that when you re-select the same character, he will again be given all the starting resources in this case, three "Time Pieces" and one "Ageless Watch" so it turns out that with the help of "Celestial Portal" for Wanda, you can have an infinite source of "Time Pieces"without going into ruins. I believe that it is necessary to fix this flaw and the first thing that comes to my mind is when re-selecting the same character, do not give him starting resources.

by your logic everything is infinite in this game so...

[Zeklo]

4 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm confused why the portal really needs to be balanced what specifically does it break as opposed to the dragonfly wall meta for a very casual example.

Edit: figured I'd add that the thing that really annoys me about this situation is the whole pick swap debate spawned from it as well considering it actively destroyed what should have been Wurt's boon to teammates.

The Wanda portion is the first instance of an 'expensive' starter item, which as we can see here—people have a variety of opinions on.

Regardless of that there will always be the concept of "pick and swap" characters due to the Celestial Portal's existence [in it's current state]. Which is a whole other debate that's been dug into time and time again that I'm sure you're more than familiar with.

That isn't to say I wouldn't want some sort of AI fix for Dragonfly wall strat, but it's just not a topic that comes up a lot.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

The Wanda portion is the first instance of an 'expensive' starter item

This is very debatable

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

The Wanda portion is the first instance of an 'expensive' starter item, which as we can see here—people have a variety of opinions on.

Regardless of that there will always be the concept of "pick and swap" characters due to the Celestial Portal's existence [in it's current state]. Which is a whole other debate that's been dug into time and time again that I'm sure you're more than familiar with.

That isn't to say I wouldn't want some sort of AI fix for Dragonfly wall strat, but it's just not a topic that comes up a lot.

So here is the thing - Imagine if you will, Willow.

Will spawns with Bernie.  There is a good advantage in having a whole herd of bernies as they are each 2000 hp aggro drawing tanks who save noobs from sanity related deaths, and help make farming nightmare fuel a cinch.

To craft more bernie you have to get beard hair.  One place you can get beard hair is going into the monkey areas during the nm cycle, where they transform into a fearsome horde of player killing fury.  You can also get it pretty easy by farming bunnymen at low sanity...

So team A is saying "The way you're supposed to get this is by going into the monkey town to risk your life for this beard hair.  How dare she get it with the celestial portal for just 1 moonrock and purple gem which auto-collect at your base without any effort!" (I wish I was making this hyperbole up but its clearly stated in this thread that these materials come to you with zero effort lol)

Team 2 is saying "Or you just farm some bunnymen" (someone probably wants to point out that Wilson literally grows beard hair passively)(someone also wants to point out that farming shadow monkeys isn't hard either b/c wendy lol)

Point being - Time pieces are not expensive, or hard to get.  That is a fact.  Someone in this thread actually insisted the way you were "supposed" to get them was by completing the lunar event to get an iridescent gem to activate the archives...  Yet on world gen you can just walk to the archives and easily collect enough thulecite to get your time pieces going without any effort.  You only need 2-3 extra time pieces.  They are *cheap*

The celestial portal giving you 4 of them on spawn can be a way to get more of them - but the effort to put together the celestial portal and swap characters isn't easier then just walking into the archives.  The entire "ruins vs celestial portal" is a false dichotomy.  More then that, even getting into the ruins just to gather some thulecite to craft a few time pieces is on par with putting together the celestial portal.  Literally none of these gets you time pieces significantly quicker than any other method, or require any great feats of skill.

Yes the CP can let you amass a lot of time pieces.  If you needed to fill an entire chest with stacks of time pieces the CP is going to be a decent route - but again - the only reason you would do that is for backtrek watches which are gated by walrus tusk, not time pieces.  There is nothing OP about a chest overflowing with time pieces when you're waiting on walrus tusks...