Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

Cursed_Handus

I Dont enjoy the rocket mechanics.

Recommended Posts

Designing and using rockets is just not fun. You have to cram the living quarters of a dupe way down and then micro to make sure all the materials required are inside the rocket: Plastic (For research), Alge/Oxylite, Water tanks, CO2 Scrubbers, food. Its just too much annoying micro for me.

I really like everything else in the DLC its just the rocket interiors kill it for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
gabberworld    352
2 hours ago, Cursed_Handus said:

Designing and using rockets is just not fun. You have to cram the living quarters of a dupe way down and then micro to make sure all the materials required are inside the rocket: Plastic (For research), Alge/Oxylite, Water tanks, CO2 Scrubbers, food. Its just too much annoying micro for me.

I really like everything else in the DLC its just the rocket interiors kill it for me.

i know that you dont need hold stuff inside rocket, but for that you need build bigger rocket ,10 tile one is just way too small for that.

another thing is you can break rocket class and make it allot bigger inside aswell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yobbo    206

I think if there were some sort of life support module that let you carry a small amount of O₂, CO₂, water, p-water, and perhaps a few kJ of electric charge, it would make the management of these basic life support resources a bit less tedious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoDeusMachina    743

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't understand what is tedious about it. A small gas tank with O2 and small liquid tank with water and a carbon skimmer and dupes are good to go. O2 gets automatically refilled when the rocket lands, i use normal gas vent so that pressure is always 2kg inside the rocket. Nothing off gases in there. CO2 gets deleted and pwater automatically taken out of the tank and replaced by clean water. You can even hook those up to your toilet loop to re use the same water.

You can be cheap about it and replace plumbed toilets with lower tech toilets and a gas pump (until you get the mini gas pump) earlier in the game. You can also use the hand sanitizer it literally lasts forever (15kg bleach stone, 7g per use).

The most "tedious" thing is making sure there is enough food on board for the trip. But then i never considered taking a few seconds to set a number on a fridge to be tedious.

The dlc is still young, people will figure things out, share builds or ways to automate things and then it wont be as bad as it seems to be when reading some comments around the forum. We might just need time to learn the new system.

What is tedious for me is the sheer amount of infrastructure, steel, and automation that was needed to automate rockets in the base game. Even when it was well done, there was always the possibility that a rocket would return during a meteor shower and wreck some of the structures. All the work required to set things up made it literally inaccessible to some players unless they used tutorials made by the community and just copy paste their work.

I guess this could be a whole other topic, but I would like to understand this dire need some players seem to have in having everything done automatically. Is it successfully automating things that is rewarding? If everything was automated, what else is there to do in the game? How do you "play" it? Just stare at the colony self managing itself? Watch netflix on the side? Start over to... automate more things? What is so repulsive in having to actually click on buttons and direct your dupes around? I would honestly like to understand peoples thoughts on that :-) Don't get me wrong, I do like having some things automated and a LOT can be automated in ONI, so I'm not judging here. But I also like having to micro manage some of the things happening in my game, planning my space exploration, my colonization, etc. Maybe I should start another topic to gather opinions xD

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nebbie    449
1 hour ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I don't understand what is tedious about it. A small gas tank with O2 and small liquid tank with water and a carbon skimmer and dupes are good to go. ...

 

If you're using the starting engines, you won't have the height limit for those to be options. With the Carbon Dioxide Engine especially, you end up with more to cram in to keep dupes alive and with high morale (ever tried having a Great Hall in a Spacefarer Module that also has to have interior oxygen production...? I have!). With the Sugar Engine, there's room for a Gas Cargo Canister, but that's about it, and so you need clever vent placement to not need a Carbon Skimmer.
A big part of the problem here is that you can't simply pipe in and out of the rocket to begin with, so you can't just put in a Carbon Skimmer when a rocket's landed and use that to clean out the CO2 from when it was in orbit.

People are begging for a "Life Support Module" because 8 rocket height spent on basic needs, with 6 of that being things really meant as industrial solutions to space mining for resources, is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoDeusMachina    743
41 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

If you're using the starting engines, you won't have the height limit for those to be options. With the Carbon Dioxide Engine especially, you end up with more to cram in to keep dupes alive and with high morale (ever tried having a Great Hall in a Spacefarer Module that also has to have interior oxygen production...? I have!). With the Sugar Engine, there's room for a Gas Cargo Canister, but that's about it, and so you need clever vent placement to not need a Carbon Skimmer.
A big part of the problem here is that you can't simply pipe in and out of the rocket to begin with, so you can't just put in a Carbon Skimmer when a rocket's landed and use that to clean out the CO2 from when it was in orbit.

People are begging for a "Life Support Module" because 8 rocket height spent on basic needs, with 6 of that being things really meant as industrial solutions to space mining for resources, is ridiculous and nonsensical.

You are right, we cannot have all the life support and all the rooms bonuses with both the starter engines and small spacefarer module. But should we? They are the starter engines for a reason. And I don't think the small spacefarer module should offer that either. We don't need space research for the bigger spacefarer module - I tend to rush that one because I feel like the small module doesn't offer what I need.

The sugar engine has max 16 height, 3 (engine) + 2(oxidizer) + 6 (spacefarer and nosecone) that leaves 5 for gas + battery/cargo module/solar panels. It has 4 range, enough for a two way trip to the first two asteroids. Fertilizer does a good job and is easy to make, and sucrose spawns on all starting asteroids. That should be enough to get you to small/large peteoleum engines. I really don't see the struggle :-/

Edit: corrected mistake in counting spacefarer+nosecone height

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nebbie    449
5 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

You are right, we cannot have all the life support and all the rooms bonuses with both the starter engines and small spacefarer module. But should we? They are the starter engines for a reason. And I don't think the small spacefarer module should offer that either. We don't need space research for the bigger spacefarer module - I tend to rush that one because I feel like the small module doesn't offer what I need.

The sugar engine has max 16 height, 3 (engine) + 2(oxidizer) + 5(spacefarer and nosecone) that leaves 6 for gas+liquid tank or gas+rover/trailblazer/orbital cargo. It has 4 range, enough for a two way trip to the first two asteroids. Fertilizer does a good job and is easy to make, and sucrose spawns on all starting asteroids. That should be enough to get you to small/large peteoleum engines. I really don't see the struggle :-/

You're assuming that immediately as soon as Petroleum Engines are unlocked, that all rockets are completely redesigned or retired, because the player has "moved on" to the "oil phase" of the game. This is simply not everyone's playstyle, the game is pushing a little too much along the tech tree, when many players want to explore further what they already have before moving on to what requires a lot more industrial solutions.
Also, Spacefarer+Nosecone is 6 height, meaning there is no room for both gas and liquid cargo; it basically has to be gas and battery, which means no Carbon Skimmer and no Lavatories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoDeusMachina    743
11 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

You're assuming that immediately as soon as Petroleum Engines are unlocked, that all rockets are completely redesigned or retired, because the player has "moved on" to the "oil phase" of the game. This is simply not everyone's playstyle, the game is pushing a little too much along the tech tree, when many players want to explore further what they already have before moving on to what requires a lot more industrial solutions.
Also, Spacefarer+Nosecone is 6 height, meaning there is no room for both gas and liquid cargo; it basically has to be gas and battery, which means no Carbon Skimmer and no Lavatories.

That's true, my bad about the 5 vs 6 height.

I get your point regarding different playstyles and paces and there is nothing wrong with that :-) But then, shouldn't players wanting to go slower also accept that they cannot reach the same distance and level of comfort in space exploration if they choose to stay at a low level of space tech? I think we just cant get everything at the very beginning without investing in it. It applies to all areas of the game, not just space. We prioritize different things, and those choices also have consequences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nebbie    449
1 minute ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

That's true, my bad about the 5 vs 6 height.

I get your point regarding different playstyles and paces and there is nothing wrong with that :-) But then, shouldn't players wanting to go slower also accept that they cannot reach the same distance and level of comfort in space exploration if they choose to stay at a low level of space tech? I think we just cant get everything at the very beginning without investing in it. It applies to all areas of the game, not just space. We prioritize different things, and those choices also have consequences.

The problem isn't necessarily different levels of dupe comfort. You give up a Great Hall, you don't really suddenly get working Lavatories or Carbon Skimmers, because there just isn't room for a Water Sieve. Sugar Engines are supposed to be a niche for round trips because they can carry extra fuel onboard or dig up some, and they on paper look great as a low-tech way to wait a bit to get Radbolt Engines (repeatedly launch researcher), but in practice, they're just a bit of a headache.
Part of my frustration here is you don't actually need liquid cargo if you do it the right way from the start with gas overwriting, making Sugar Engines viable, but if you let CO2 build up, then there's no way to get rid of it easily because we don't have a way to just vent unwanted gases directly, and that means a Carbon Skimmer which is basically off-limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoDeusMachina    743
18 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

The problem isn't necessarily different levels of dupe comfort. You give up a Great Hall, you don't really suddenly get working Lavatories or Carbon Skimmers, because there just isn't room for a Water Sieve. Sugar Engines are supposed to be a niche for round trips because they can carry extra fuel onboard or dig up some, and they on paper look great as a low-tech way to wait a bit to get Radbolt Engines (repeatedly launch researcher), but in practice, they're just a bit of a headache.
Part of my frustration here is you don't actually need liquid cargo if you do it the right way from the start with gas overwriting, making Sugar Engines viable, but if you let CO2 build up, then there's no way to get rid of it easily because we don't have a way to just vent unwanted gases directly, and that means a Carbon Skimmer which is basically off-limits.

You can pump CO2 in your gas storage, dupes need more O2 than they produce CO2 so there will always be space. You vent it when you land with the gas unloader. You dont need a mini gas pump, a normal pump with a switch will do. The gas outlet in the spacefarer is set to release only O2 since its a filter. Or maybe I am not understanding the problem you are mentioning correctly? I never had gas or co2 build up issues with my rockets. I usually prioritize oxygen over water when rocket height is limited. You can even a hamster wheel in the rocket and a battery if you didnt built it as a rocket module. Does this make sense? I feel like I'm missing something in what you are telling me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nebbie    449
25 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

You can pump CO2 in your gas storage, dupes need more O2 than they produce CO2 so there will always be space. You vent it when you land with the gas unloader. You dont need a mini gas pump, a normal pump with a switch will do. The gas outlet in the spacefarer is set to release only O2 since its a filter. Or maybe I am not understanding the problem you are mentioning correctly? I never had gas or co2 build up issues with my rockets. I usually prioritize oxygen over water when rocket height is limited. You can even a hamster wheel in the rocket and a battery if you didnt built it as a rocket module. Does this make sense? I feel like I'm missing something in what you are telling me.

Initially, a rocket didn't have gas cargo, so CO2 built up over time. I later retrofitted it, but then had to spend ages pumping out the CO2 to get it down to where the vent could take care of it from there. I had to use a mini pump to not do a ton of rearranging of the somewhat-cramped interior.
It got there in the end, but it's just a little on the high end of hassle, which is something I find happens a lot when it comes to correcting systems in ONI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NeoDeusMachina    743
14 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

Initially, a rocket didn't have gas cargo, so CO2 built up over time. I later retrofitted it, but then had to spend ages pumping out the CO2 to get it down to where the vent could take care of it from there. I had to use a mini pump to not do a ton of rearranging of the somewhat-cramped interior.
It got there in the end, but it's just a little on the high end of hassle, which is something I find happens a lot when it comes to correcting systems in ONI.

Aaaah okay i get it, now it makes sense! Well, thankfully we have gas cargo tanks to make our lives easier now, at least with that specific issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
blakemw    163

I think I must be playing a different way because I have a lot of fun with rocket interiors.

I use tiny CO2 rockets a lot. These go very fast, they travel their maximum range of 4 tiles in 1.2 cycles but many trips between asteroids are shorter than 4 tiles and trips are often only 0.6 cycles. The Solo Spacefarer capsule is really suitable for these trips.

An Atmo suit provides about 1.25 cycles of air and a Dupe also takes a while to suffocate after that runs out (if you're not exploiting the no catching breath glitch so dupes never suffocate...), in short any trip a tiny CO2 rocket can be made can be made with just the air supply of an Atmo Suit.

A dupe starts starving at 800 kcal which gives them 0.8 cycles to live so if a dupe is not starving when they enter the tiny CO2 rocket they'll definitely survive a 0.6 cycle trip (unless they have bottomless stomach), but if a dupe has limitless access to food rather than scrounging for meal lice or something they keep about 3000-4000 kcal in their belly and can thus go 3 cycles without food, no problem whatsoever.

A duplicant can go 1 cycle between peeing. If you dispatch the dupe on a schedule this means they will definitely be okay for trips up to 3 tiles long but if you completely disregard their schedule they might have to go toilet in their suit, which is basically fine the suit will be emptied at the docks.

Basically all trips which a tiny CO2 rocket can make, can be made with an Atmo Suit and calories in the belly making them superb as shuttles between planetoids, just have atmo suit docks at each end and dupes can be sent back and forth freely. Here is an example "shuttle" interior, Jean can get busy doing orbital researcher and she even gets 120 decor (when I'm not hauling crap) for +12 morale to help compensate for not having morale boosting rooms on the way, it's overkill but it's also more or less free to do.

solo1.thumb.jpg.f71b047b54b94fa6917122dd64d9c8d7.jpg

I think this is how the Solo Spacefarer module is meant to be used, primarily for very fast trips which with proper timing allows the dupe to use the bathroom and other facilities at the destination or with improper timing they pee in their suit and sleep on the ground but it's not like they're doing that long term and even if they are high morale is entirely attainable so they can take considerable penalties to stress and remain at < 10% stress.

Another of my Solo Spacefarers: this one a bit more exploity because I reconfigure the capsule on the fly but eh removing the rocket control station is allowed once in flight. Ari here is doing a surveying mission and has +20 morale from Decor and Berry Sludge and he's a happy dupe despite having to pee'n'mop.

solo2.thumb.jpg.dcde8815161957ce3652091fc7ab8ee0.jpg

(The fridge is not powered: I'm using screenshot mode)

Only in the late game with planetoids that are more than 4 range away is a "proper" rocket required (though the Radbolt Engine can be pretty fast), that's where the Spacefarer Module comes in. It is not particularly hard to make a Spacefarer Module with a Great Hall and Outhouse + Sanitizer for cleanliness, a Refrigerator is easily automatically stocked with Berry Sludge and a Storage can be stocked with a few tons of Oxylite. I build a couple of Dirt and Plastic Tempshift Plates to make sure those materials are locked in (actually I also Tempshift raw mineral, metal ore, refined metal for in case I have to reconfigure the capsule or for use at the destination).

CO2 is the most significant annoyance, it is possible to use an Oxyfern to scrub it but often I just let it accumulate then temporarily build a Gas Pump and a Canister Filler and bottle the CO2 for later disposal, seems a little sus but eh the idea of the canister filler seems to be to put gas in bottles and I use it to put gas in bottles.

At the moment the main thing I don't really like is the ability to load unlimited tons of junk into the capsule with no impact on rocket module burden, it kind of feels like I should be punished for loading 20 tons of junk into a capsule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sasza22    3800

The rockets are supposed to be imperfect. It`s not a minibase just an elevator your dupe needs to survive for a few cycles and get destressed after. Personally i just use a gas tank for oxygen and a mini pump to get rid of CO2 back to the tank (the filtering allows to do it eficiently). Refilling food supplies is tedious and microing the atmosuit usage annoying but it works. It`s for the small one anyways and for the longer trips you should be switching to the bigger one that can fit a mini base for 2 dupes if you provide enough supplies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the OP, I find building the rocket interior to be interesting in concept and excruciating in execution. The intent of Spaced Out was to make space exploration a much more active part of the whole game, but the complexity of the interior, and how quickly it balloons between an orbital researcher and anything that needs to function for more than 1 cycle, discourages doing anything meaningful until you have petroleum, internal fittings, and berry mush, at which point you need to hyper focus on micromanaging things to keep Dupes from using up all the resources on the ship.

Critically I just don't find it fun. It feels like a wall between me and the rest of the interesting stuff in the expansion, and it's a wall that's both time consuming and frustrating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SharraShimada    1143

I would like a rocket like base game. Build, launch, forget. I do not enjoy micromanagement inside of the too limited space of the capsule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gurgel    2982
2 hours ago, cpy said:

I can't break glass on a rocket. Was this thing fixed?

There were several fixes and some destructive barbarians fine experimentalists found ways around them. May well be fixed for good now.

On 7/4/2021 at 12:39 AM, blakemw said:

An Atmo suit provides about 1.25 cycles of air and a Dupe also takes a while to suffocate after that runs out (if you're not exploiting the no catching breath glitch so dupes never suffocate...), in short any trip a tiny CO2 rocket can be made can be made with just the air supply of an Atmo Suit.

I will try this with a dupe that breaths at 25% (diver + deep diver). Fully eaten up, that one should be able to stay alive for 4 cycles in an exo-suit. Currently waiting for a viable candidate to become available via the printer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ZombieDupe    331

I like designing living quarters inside rockets, but I totally agree. We need more space in these rockets. If we are going to stay with the whole idea of it being bigger on the inside as a pocket dimension then more space never hurt. I find myself micro-managing rocket missions way too much because at times you can't even fit in food for the journey and there is just no way to let a mission go and coming back after a little while when the rocket has already landed unless you had proper living quarters, which was much more possible to do when you could still break the rocket tiles. Things like a washroom, decontamination, CO2 scrubbing/venting, cooling are what you eventually have to deal with inside the rocket interior, but you can't really automate it that well possibly involving some exploit.

4 hours ago, Gurgel said:

There were several fixes and some destructive barbarians fine experimentalists found ways around them. May well be fixed for good now.

No, I tested metal tile breaking, which Brothgar has created via debug long ago and you can break bounds by over pressurising the tiles with a liquid. Just above 125 tons of liquid was the breaking point for both the steel and diamond tiles I believe. And you could actually accomplish this without debug at least in the bigger module, it would be a lot of wasted liquid, but you can do it.

There is also the possibility that a stressed out destructive duplicant breaking bounds hasn't been fixed, but I haven't tested that since I first saw it happen by almost an accident in one of the first Brothgar's playthroughs of the DLC.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkunkMaster    286

It would be nice if we where able to save templates of rocket interiors within our games.

That would simplify the whole process of setting up multiple rockets lategame, without robbing you of the experience of setting up the interior of the first rocket.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nebbie    449
On 7/3/2021 at 1:05 PM, NeoDeusMachina said:

Aaaah okay i get it, now it makes sense! Well, thankfully we have gas cargo tanks to make our lives easier now, at least with that specific issue.

To be clear, the problem was a rocket I had initially wasn't designed the "correct" way, it started out with a carbon dioxide engine and thus didn't really have the height for gas cargo. Another similar rocket initially used multiple solar modules to help provide power to new colonies, and I don't think I ever fixed that one. It's just annoying because rockets are very demanding on their initial design being correct, else it's often easier to deconstruct and rebuild the modules, but that's annoying with how much you need to design interiors...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
babba    2152

If Klei keeps keeps it at a situation that vanilla base game players can not play inside rockets, then it would be great if dlc players have the game function "Disable interior rocket play", offering the option to play and operate rockets like in the base game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites