Most of the Webber rework doesn't seem to work as expected (Analysis, suggestions and Complaints)

[Cassielu]

So as a Webber main, after I playing New Webber for a while, I began to feel that the rework wasn't as good as it should have been, Webber himself does not seem to have been much improved or changed. Rework showed some great concepts, but the implementation of them went awry in all sorts of ways. So I created this topic to try to analyze why and give valuable feedback.There may be bugs or design omissions, they interaction led to Webber's situation so I won't try to separate them here. 

Personally, I'm slightly disappointed with the rework and hope there will be more tweaks to make it better.

Start with Den decorating set, apparently this item was added to help Webber's spider get along better with other characters... and it doesn't work.

• The soothing area of a spider's nest is much smaller than the spider's activity range (If I remember correctly, this range will be expanded in the spring),when they are out of range, they attack the player and walls like normal spiders.
• Even though the spider den has been decorated, Abigail and the Giant Bernie still attack the spiders, characters also attack spiders first when the player presses F (including Weber), that would immediately undo Webber's work.
• Decorations fall off when a spider is attacked. That's fine in itself, but having a source of damage out of the player's control that causes decorations to fall off is annoying. Like meteor,ghost during full-moon, cave rockfalls during earthquakes, Antlion, moongleam and god damn charged glassy rock. Wait why is charged glassy again? There's also wildfire and lightning, there's a bug where the spider's nest takes these damage and plays the animation of the decorations falling off, but the decorations don't real fall off. So I'm not sure what's going on.
• Sanity Aura, putting a spider den near a base, or spending the night huddled around a fire with Webber  who leads a few spiders, is a huge loss of sanity.
• Friendly spiders can even prevent other characters from opening skin gifts

Well, that doesn't mean the ornament is useless, even if it doesn't work perfectly, BUT

Spoiler

 

Obviously not everyone likes this,

Webber is at least better at this than Wendy.
It's a bit of a shame they can't enjoy it themselves.

 

here some suggestion:

• In addition to the range pacifying effect, spiders coming out of a decorated spider den will now be friendly neutral.
• Abigail and the Giant Bernie stopped actively attacking the friendly spiders, all characters need to use 3.force attacks to attack friendly spiders.
• Only an attack from mob or player will cause the decorations to fall off the spider den.
• Friendly spiders and hired spiders no longer have Sanity Aura, even let hired some kind of spiders to provide sanity restoration.

Then, the spider. As a spider, Weber can't hire a lumberjack and a brute force beater. Instead, he hires a spider, what can spiders do? only fighting. This point has already been pointed out on another topic.
Returning to the matter of combat, the spider is not a good fighter, even when webber is present.

Spiders are poor at fighting alone. They work in groups. Think about a time when you were playing a game and the spiders were a threat to you. Mazes, spider forests, spider mines are all places where there are a certain number of spiders. Wenber is the same, only when a certain number of spiders gathered, they will have a combat advantage. For example, before Webber rework, the most common spider battle strategy (Except the civil war) was to use a large number of spiders to defeat the Bee queen, which required the use of the spider queen hat to focus spiders on the bee queen, because Webber can't hire a lot of spiders in a short time, and they consume a lot of meat.

Spoiler

In case you're curious
After the bee queen squeaks every time, wear the spider queen hat and attack the queen with the ice staff. Leave the rest to the spider.

Now Webber has gained new powers: making switcherdoodle and wearing hats on spiders, which allow him to create special individuals in the spider swarm, it is obviously be added to improve the spider's combat ability. But as I said earlier, spiders work in groups, and the role of special individuals is too limited. For example, exception of Spitter, who has ranged attack abilities, no spider of any species can kill a pigman just because he's wearing a football helmet.

Beside, spiders have some weird little problems with being fighter:

• They will immediately eat the meat that falls on the floor, even Guardian's horn or Deerclops eyeball. While whistling can prevent this from happening, the amount of time left for the player to react is too short.
• The Shattered Spider's AOE attack will damage the other Spider and cause a Civil War.
• Because of the skill release mechanism, a group of Nurse Spiders will often release their healers at the same time, wasting a lot of heals and watch their companions get killed the rest of the time. Also, if a spider gets into a civil war, it heals both sides of the spider at the same time, even the spider that is attacking it and the spider it is attacking.
• Once you hire spiders, they don't sleep anymore, so you can't simply pick them up, carry them with you, or leave the game and go into the cave. As I said earlier, you often need a lot of spiders to get the job done, which can be a huge loss for Webber. And this is a bit odd, since the player is usually carrying a helpful friend rather than a wild animal, why are they not as useful as they were before they were hired, or are these spiders really willing to give their lives in battle for Webber rather than be hugged by Webber?

here some suggestion:

• As was said in another topic, give the spider some ability to collect resources, which I thought would be neat considering Webber was a farm boy.
• receive more switcherdoodle per crafting.
• The nurse spider does not heal its target. If the nurse spider does not have a spider or Webber nearby to heal, or nurse spider will not use the healer. And their healing can heal other characters. (If they are hired)
• Webber can just pick up the spider that is following him, whether the spider is sleeping or not.

[EirikGerhard]

39 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Decorations fall off when a spider is attacked. That's fine in itself, but having a source of damage out of the player's control that causes decorations to fall off is annoying. Like meteor,ghost during full-moon, cave rockfalls during earthquakes, Antlion, moongleam and god damn charged glassy rock. Wait why is charged glassy again? There's also wildfire and lightning, there's a bug where the spider's nest takes these damage and plays the animation of the decorations falling off, but the decorations don't real fall off. So I'm not sure what's going on.

This is the most frustrating part in my opinion. I would love to use decorated dens in the caves, but earthquakes prevent me from doing so. It makes sense that under certain threats the truce is over and den decorations are removed (e.g. as Cassielu said, if spiders or the den itself are attacked by a player or mobs), but losing pacification due to any source of damage really limits the potential of decorated dens (I also wanted to use some decorated dens to pacify the spiders in the labyrinth, but again earthquakes prevent me from doing so...).

[kilobit]

Some of the best criticism toward this update I've seen yet, I would love to see pretty much everything mentioned here in the game

[Echsrick]

something that may alsol be interesting is that before the update webber gets 3 spiders whit 1 meat givin now its only 2 spiders it seems for no real reasons alsol i actualy wish there was something for webber like something more impactfull that is like this update dit not gave him something direct just mostly the spiders the only thing webber got that effect only him is that he can sleep in den 3 and walks faster on webbing wich both of them dont realy matters evven more so because tents are easy to get whit all the silk he gets and sticky turf is only around a spider den so its not realy something he can have all time wish he got something more direct like some sort of poison abilty to help out in battle

[DajeKotlyar]

It's a nice suggestions, but don't forget, that spiders don't have to be OP. If Klei follow all your suggestions, spiders will become too good, with ability to kill any mob in entire game.

[Copyafriend]

3 hours ago, Cassielu said:

So as a Webber main, after I playing New Webber for a while, I began to feel that the rework wasn't as good as it should have been, Webber himself does not seem to have been much improved or changed. Rework showed some great concepts, but the implementation of them went awry in all sorts of ways. So I created this topic to try to analyze why and give valuable feedback.There may be bugs or design omissions, they interaction led to Webber's situation so I won't try to separate them here. 

Personally, I'm slightly disappointed with the rework and hope there will be more tweaks to make it better.

Start with Den decorating set, apparently this item was added to help Webber's spider get along better with other characters... and it doesn't work.

• The soothing area of a spider's nest is much smaller than the spider's activity range (If I remember correctly, this range will be expanded in the spring),when they are out of range, they attack the player and walls like normal spiders.
• Even though the spider den has been decorated, Abigail and the Giant Bernie still attack the spiders, characters also attack spiders first when the player presses F (including Weber), that would immediately undo Webber's work.
• Decorations fall off when a spider is attacked. That's fine in itself, but having a source of damage out of the player's control that causes decorations to fall off is annoying. Like meteor,ghost during full-moon, cave rockfalls during earthquakes, Antlion, moongleam and god damn charged glassy rock. Wait why is charged glassy again? There's also wildfire and lightning, there's a bug where the spider's nest takes these damage and plays the animation of the decorations falling off, but the decorations don't real fall off. So I'm not sure what's going on.
• Sanity Aura, putting a spider den near a base, or spending the night huddled around a fire with Webber  who leads a few spiders, is a huge loss of sanity.
• Friendly spiders can even prevent other characters from opening skin gifts

Well, that doesn't mean the ornament is useless, even if it doesn't work perfectly, BUT

  Hide contents

 

Obviously not everyone likes this,

Webber is at least better at this than Wendy.
It's a bit of a shame they can't enjoy it themselves.

 

here some suggestion:

• In addition to the range pacifying effect, spiders coming out of a decorated spider den will now be friendly neutral.
• Abigail and the Giant Bernie stopped actively attacking the friendly spiders, all characters need to use 3.force attacks to attack friendly spiders.
• Only an attack from mob or player will cause the decorations to fall off the spider den.
• Friendly spiders and hired spiders no longer have Sanity Aura, even let hired some kind of spiders to provide sanity restoration.

Then, the spider. As a spider, Weber can't hire a lumberjack and a brute force beater. Instead, he hires a spider, what can spiders do? only fighting. This point has already been pointed out on another topic.
Returning to the matter of combat, the spider is not a good fighter, even when webber is present.

Spiders are poor at fighting alone. They work in groups. Think about a time when you were playing a game and the spiders were a threat to you. Mazes, spider forests, spider mines are all places where there are a certain number of spiders. Wenber is the same, only when a certain number of spiders gathered, they will have a combat advantage. For example, before Webber rework, the most common spider battle strategy (Except the civil war) was to use a large number of spiders to defeat the Bee queen, which required the use of the spider queen hat to focus spiders on the bee queen, because Webber can't hire a lot of spiders in a short time, and they consume a lot of meat.

  Hide contents

In case you're curious
After the bee queen squeaks every time, wear the spider queen hat and attack the queen with the ice staff. Leave the rest to the spider.

Now Webber has gained new powers: making switcherdoodle and wearing hats on spiders, which allow him to create special individuals in the spider swarm, it is obviously be added to improve the spider's combat ability. But as I said earlier, spiders work in groups, and the role of special individuals is too limited. For example, exception of Spitter, who has ranged attack abilities, no spider of any species can kill a pigman just because he's wearing a football helmet.

Beside, spiders have some weird little problems with being fighter:

• They will immediately eat the meat that falls on the floor, even Guardian's horn or Deerclops eyeball. While whistling can prevent this from happening, the amount of time left for the player to react is too short.

I personally think this facet is over exaggerated a lot. Yeah, deerclops’ eye is consumable, i’m pretty sure its to punish players for leavint it on the ground ans it getting eaten. Put on two football helmets grab a hambat and tank deerclops, he’s the easiest boss and if you rely on spiders you deserve to have your loot maybe get eaten. As for ancient guardian, use rock lobsters, they’re stronger than spiders and webber can still befriend them. I wouldn’t mind being given an extra second to react but i also think people need to realize that spiders are carnivores and if you bring a bunch, they’re gonna want to eat your loot, you have a way to stop them that requires skill: and if you dont want them to steal any loot ever: dont use them.

• The Shattered Spider's AOE attack will damage the other Spider and cause a Civil War.

definitely needs to be addressed

• Because of the skill release mechanism, a group of Nurse Spiders will often release their healers at the same time, wasting a lot of heals and watch their companions get killed the rest of the time. Also, if a spider gets into a civil war, it heals both sides of the spider at the same time, even the spider that is attacking it and the spider it is attacking.

spiders are the only mob that can heal eachother now, yeah some heals are getting wasted but if the boss can kill the spiders in the time between nurse healings, then i think you probably shouldn’t be trying to kill that boss with swarm tactics, aoe is meant to counter things like bringing an army so if they cant outheal it, it sounds like “working as intended”

• Once you hire spiders, they don't sleep anymore, so you can't simply pick them up, carry them with you, or leave the game and go into the cave. As I said earlier, you often need a lot of spiders to get the job done, which can be a huge loss for Webber. And this is a bit odd, since the player is usually carrying a helpful friend rather than a wild animal, why are they not as useful as they were before they were hired, or are these spiders really willing to give their lives in battle for Webber rather than be hugged by Webber?

you can always wait till daytime and unfriend them and they’ll fall asleep fine, but i do think he should be able to pick up allied ones, but not any spider

here some suggestion:

• As was said in another topic, give the spider some ability to collect resources, which I thought would be neat considering Webber was a farm boy.

I could take it or leave it, its not necessary, and its not powerful, itd be a cute unnecessary boost.

• receive more switcherdoodle per crafting

or make them cheaper

• The nurse spider does not heal its target. If the nurse spider does not have a spider or Webber nearby to heal, or nurse spider will not use the healer. And their healing can heal other characters. (If they are hired)

no, webber now has the strongest self healing ability beating out even wortox in certain scenarios, foodless armorless bossfights is now not only feasible, but can be made easy with enough prep, we dont need every player gettint that kind of bonus.

• Webber can just pick up the spider that is following him, whether the spider is sleeping or not.

 If allied, i dont see why not.

My reply is in the thing itself, i struggle with the quote system on my phone so i made it easier for myself

[Scrimbles]

I don't understand why Klei doesn't consult the community and run beta tests for these refreshes.

Some of this stuff would have been caught and fixed day 1 if a beta went out, but instead, it goes live with problems.

Webber is one of the most fan favourite characters, but is also one of the most FLAWED characters, people have really strong feelings about him and it really feels like there should have been more of a back and forth on his design, rather than silence, an announcement of whats GOING to happen a week before, and then a buggy launch.

[QuartzBeam]

I'm pretty sure the Shattered Spider AoE does not damage the other loyal spiders, but other than that, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The rework has a really solid foundation and I'd be lying if I said that Webber is not noticeably better than he was before.

But it just feels incomplete at every corner.

Decorated Dens seem to exist primarily so Webber can use his new infinite tent and recruit new spiders without going 2 screens away. He still has to setup his own private mini-base with un-decorated spider dens to farm silk/monster meat/glands and to take advantage of his speed boost perk (the decorated dens have a teeny tiny webbing). I suppose the Decorating Kit, with its 5 uses, is pretty good for preventing spider queen spawns in-between spider wars. (Question: does decorating the nest and having the decor removed via spider violence reset the queen timer?)

Then, there's the so-called "permanent loyalty" buff spiders got. On paper, making meat recruit 2 spiders instead of the previous 3 in exchange for those spiders following you till death sounds great. And it sounds worthwhile, because 10-20 spiders will make short work of most mobs in the game, including some bosses if you got a few nurse spiders in there.

But if you disconnect or enter/exit the caves, that loyalty goes away. And since you have to spend a lot of meat to make a decent army, that means you need to spend a lot of meat every time you disconnect or enter/exit the caves. I really don't get why they can't just "save" your spiders when you disconnect, despawn them and then respawn them when you connect again. There's already a mod in the workshop that does just that, so t's clearly far from impossible to implement.

Also, putting spiders in your inventory seems kinda pointless? It seems like it was done so you can take them in and out of the caves, but you can't fit a whole spider army in your inventory and even if you could, you still have to spend tons of meat to befriend them both when you enter the caves and when you leave them again. And as you said, you can't pick up friendly spiders without first un-friending them, so it's not really useful for carrying spiders without leaving the shard either.

Last but not least... Switcherdoodles. I feel like I'm one of the few people who do not have a huge problem with the cost of the switcherdoodles? Mostly cause they're just there as an alternative to going out and capturing the specific spiders you need, which is basically the only use of putting spiders in the inventory at the moment. If you could tame spiders permanently for real, I think the cost itself would be pretty fine. What I do not think is fine though, is how similar most of the "strong" spiders are.

You have Nurse Spiders, which are miles better than the others due to their unique healing powers, then you have 5 different types of "tough spider". Of these tough spiders, Spitters have an advantage due to their attack speed and range, and the rest are just there. Arguably, the Shattered Spiders are the third best, cause they have pretty cheap recipes, but Dangling Depth Dwellers are just a more expensive warrior and Cave Spiders... whose ever gonna use those?

Also, yeah, harvested spiders would be awesome. And sorry for the rant. :P

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

I'm pretty sure the Shattered Spider AoE does not damage the other loyal spiders, but other than that, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The rework has a really solid foundation and I'd be lying if I said that Webber is not noticeably better than he was before.

But it just feels incomplete at every corner.

Decorated Dens seem to exist primarily so Webber can use his new infinite tent and recruit new spiders without going 2 screens away. He still has to setup his own private mini-base with un-decorated spider dens to farm silk/monster meat/glands and to take advantage of his speed boost perk (the decorated dens have a teeny tiny webbing). I suppose the Decorating Kit, with its 5 uses, is pretty good for preventing spider queen spawns in-between spider wars. (Question: does decorating the nest and having the decor removed via spider violence reset the queen timer?)

Then, there's the so-called "permanent loyalty" buff spiders got. On paper, making meat recruit 2 spiders instead of the previous 3 in exchange for those spiders following you till death sounds great. And it sounds worthwhile, because 10-20 spiders will make short work of most mobs in the game, including some bosses if you got a few nurse spiders in there.

But if you disconnect or enter/exit the caves, that loyalty goes away. And since you have to spend a lot of meat to make a decent army, that means you need to spend a lot of meat every time you disconnect or enter/exit the caves. I really don't get why they can't just "save" your spiders when you disconnect, despawn them and then respawn them when you connect again. There's already a mod in the workshop that does just that, so t's clearly far from impossible to implement.

Also, putting spiders in your inventory seems kinda pointless? It seems like it was done so you can take them in and out of the caves, but you can't fit a whole spider army in your inventory and even if you could, you still have to spend tons of meat to befriend them both when you enter the caves and when you leave them again. And as you said, you can't pick up friendly spiders without first un-friending them, so it's not really useful for carrying spiders without leaving the shard either.

Last but not least... Switcherdoodles. I feel like I'm one of the few people who do not have a huge problem with the cost of the switcherdoodles? Mostly cause they're just there as an alternative to going out and capturing the specific spiders you need, which is basically the only use of putting spiders in the inventory at the moment. If you could tame spiders permanently for real, I think the cost itself would be pretty fine. What I do not think is fine though, is how similar most of the "strong" spiders are.

You have Nurse Spiders, which are miles better than the others due to their unique healing powers, then you have 5 different types of "tough spider". Of these tough spiders, Spitters have an advantage due to their attack speed and range, and the rest are just there. Arguably, the Shattered Spiders are the third best, cause they have pretty cheap recipes, but Dangling Depth Dwellers are just a more expensive warrior and Cave Spiders... whose ever gonna use those?

Also, yeah, harvested spiders would be awesome. And sorry for the rant. :P

I feel like the best compromise would probaly be making the shoe box put followers to sleep and lets them stack in inventories while not losing their loyalty.

As for the other kinds of spiders it seems unless the wiki is wrong there's a reason to use different types for different reasons

spider attack rates in seconds are

spider 3

warrior/dweller 4-6

cave spider 3

spitter 6

shattered 3

there's technically a fair amount of value in most types of spiders(again assuming the wiki isn't wrong)

cave spiders and shattered spiders being faster on the attack with cave spiders being the cheapest spiders aside from nurses to craft and shattered spiders having the strongest bite

spitters having a more reliable ranged attacking when it can't get closer to a enemy for whatever reason

warriors and dwellers having the highest hp at 400 tied with nurses and having a leap attack

[QuartzBeam]

21 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

snip

Okay, first of all, someone reported the spiders losing loyalty when you relog and it was marked as "fixed", so chances are the spiders will be following us permanently for real whenever the next hotfix rolls around. And that kinda fixes a lot of the issues I had with the refresh.

 

As for the spider variety... First of all, the values listed on the wiki do not really tell the whole story. Attack period is just the countdown between when the attack animation ends and when the attack animation can start again, so things are a fair bit muddier than that. And I'm pretty sure the Spitter value refers to their melee attacks or something.

Because in practice, Spitters have the fastest attacks among the spiders, at least when it comes to their eponymous spit attack; their bite attack is probably as slow as the wiki says. Additionally, the fact that they have a ranged attack means they are not hindered by frontline spiders if the horde is big. And at 350 HP, they're also the second toughest spider type. So unless they get too close to the target, Spitters offer both the best damage output and the second best durability.

Now, it's possible that Warriors and Danglers might have some potential here, as their leap could possibly let them get into the frontlines and "force" the spitters to use only their ranged attacks? I haven't really tried that, so I can't say for sure. But that's still 2 separate spiders, one of which is arguably more expensive, that do the exact same thing.

On to Cave Spiders... they probably have the worst DPS among their kind, because if they take enough damage, they hide in their shells and stop attacking. But because of how aggro works, the enemy will probably turn around and target some other spider that is still attacking. So a hiding Cave Spider is both less likely to be hit than the other spiders and does not contribute to the horde's DPS in any way. Plus, because they were designed with players in mind, they will probably come out of their shell before they get hit again and end up taking yet another full-force attack, which means effectively they have less health (225) than every other spider except the basic one.

And Shattered Spiders... they deal 25 damage per bite, which is a miniscule change in DPS compared to the basic spiders and their AoE attacks seem pretty inaccurate from what I've seen. (The "hitbox" of the spikes is pretty small.) But to be honest I don't mind them all that much, cause that AoE might be more useful than it seems (time will tell) and 2 Moon Shards makes for a pretty cheap recipe.

 

TL;DR Shattered Spiders and Spider Warriors might have their uses. Dangling Depth Dwellers need... something to differentiate them from Warriors. And Cave Spiders need some sort of defensive ability (like drawing aggro and staying hidden for longer).

[sudoku]

If they were to buff certain spider types would that also carry over to untamed versions so for non Webber players these enemies would get more difficult?

[QuartzBeam]

Just now, sudoku said:

If they were to buff certain spider types would that also carry over to untamed versions so for non Webber players these enemies would get more difficult?

Preferably no, which is why I'd rather any buffs be in the form of AI tweaks that spiders get when following Webber.

For example, wild Cave Spiders would work the way they do now (which works pretty well imo), but when tamed by Webber, they would do some "draw aggro + hide" ability instead of attacking normally.

[Mysterious box]

32 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Okay, first of all, someone reported the spiders losing loyalty when you relog and it was marked as "fixed", so chances are the spiders will be following us permanently for real whenever the next hotfix rolls around. And that kinda fixes a lot of the issues I had with the refresh.

 

As for the spider variety... First of all, the values listed on the wiki do not really tell the whole story. Attack period is just the countdown between when the attack animation ends and when the attack animation can start again, so things are a fair bit muddier than that. And I'm pretty sure the Spitter value refers to their melee attacks or something.

Because in practice, Spitters have the fastest attacks among the spiders, at least when it comes to their eponymous spit attack; their bite attack is probably as slow as the wiki says. Additionally, the fact that they have a ranged attack means they are not hindered by frontline spiders if the horde is big. And at 350 HP, they're also the second toughest spider type. So unless they get too close to the target, Spitters offer both the best damage output and the second best durability.

Now, it's possible that Warriors and Danglers might have some potential here, as their leap could possibly let them get into the frontlines and "force" the spitters to use only their ranged attacks? I haven't really tried that, so I can't say for sure. But that's still 2 separate spiders, one of which is arguably more expensive, that do the exact same thing.

On to Cave Spiders... they probably have the worst DPS among their kind, because if they take enough damage, they hide in their shells and stop attacking. But because of how aggro works, the enemy will probably turn around and target some other spider that is still attacking. So a hiding Cave Spider is both less likely to be hit than the other spiders and does not contribute to the horde's DPS in any way. Plus, because they were designed with players in mind, they will probably come out of their shell before they get hit again and end up taking yet another full-force attack, which means effectively they have less health (225) than every other spider except the basic one.

And Shattered Spiders... they deal 25 damage per bite, which is a miniscule change in DPS compared to the basic spiders and their AoE attacks seem pretty inaccurate from what I've seen. (The "hitbox" of the spikes is pretty small.) But to be honest I don't mind them all that much, cause that AoE might be more useful than it seems (time will tell) and 2 Moon Shards makes for a pretty cheap recipe.

 

TL;DR Shattered Spiders and Spider Warriors might have their uses. Dangling Depth Dwellers need... something to differentiate them from Warriors. And Cave Spiders need some sort of defensive ability (like drawing aggro and staying hidden for longer).

If it's marked as fixed I don't have a issue there(however if this is the case I hope they extend this to merms and other followers)

However the attack rate is the cool down between when they can attack again and as listed for warriors and dwellers 4 is the cool down for bites and 6 is the cooldown for leaping meaning that the fact there isn't a different value for biting and shooting for spitters so be it a bite or a shot(again unless the wiki is wrong) their cooldown on attacking is 6 seconds regardless.

Yes cave spiders hide when attacked but you have a horde so and they attack faster than most other variants meaning that if your not facing something with a aoe attack they will output more dps in most scenarios while still being the 2nd cheapest spider aside from nurses.

I was saying dwellers have their uses not saying that you should use them as they have less range than warriors anyway and it isn't really worth farming bunnymen for.

Shattered spiders like cave spiders and normal spiders have the fastest spider based attack speeds even if it's hp is around the same as a cave spider nurse will still keep it alive since 250 hp isn't something that can be shaved off too easily in most scenarios.

 

As a side note they could fix the lost follower issue across all followers by just making it so once you lead a follower far enough from it's spawner it's considered homeless.

22 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Preferably no, which is why I'd rather any buffs be in the form of AI tweaks that spiders get when following Webber.

For example, wild Cave Spiders would work the way they do now (which works pretty well imo), but when tamed by Webber, they would do some "draw aggro + hide" ability instead of attacking normally.

Considering the existence of nurses wouldn't this be far too powerful?

[thegreatJash]

9 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I don't understand why Klei doesn't consult the community and run beta tests for these refreshes.

Some of this stuff would have been caught and fixed day 1 if a beta went out, but instead, it goes live with problems.

Webber is one of the most fan favourite characters, but is also one of the most FLAWED characters, people have really strong feelings about him and it really feels like there should have been more of a back and forth on his design, rather than silence, an announcement of whats GOING to happen a week before, and then a buggy launch.

I know. They always launch betas for new updates and give us a week for us players to polish it up and give feedback. Klei does still listen to feedback, and I will give them credit for that, but they seem to still be missing big problems.

[QuartzBeam]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

However the attack rate is the cool down between when they can attack again and as listed for warriors and dwellers 4 is the cool down for bites and 6 is the cooldown for leaping meaning that the fact there isn't a different value for biting and shooting for spitters so be it a bite or a shot(again unless the wiki is wrong) their cooldown on attacking is 6 seconds regardless.

The wiki can be edited by anyone and should not be taken at face value all the time. While it has a lot of correct information, it also does things like conflating food types and ingredient values and having some of the worst advice to ever grace this community.

All it takes is a pair of functioning eyes (or semi-functioning eyes and decent glasses) to tell that the Spitter's ranged attack is far faster than the 6 seconds listed on the wiki. Just spawn one in and see for yourself. (There was a gif showing that too; if I manage to find it, I'll post it.)

EDIT: Found it.

 

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Considering the existence of nurses wouldn't this be far too powerful?

Possibly. I'm just spitballing here. Point was you could buff friendly spiders via AI tweaks without affecting the difficulty for non-Webber characters.

[Dextops]

8 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Point was you could buff friendly spiders via AI tweaks

maybe for wurt too?please?

[QuartzBeam]

Just now, Dextops said:

maybe for wurt too?please?

Why would you buff friendly spiders for Wurt?

[Dextops]

Just now, QuartzBeam said:

Why would you buff friendly spiders for Wurt?

i was talking ai tweaks for merms

[QuartzBeam]

8 minutes ago, Dextops said:

i was talking ai tweaks for merms

What kinda tweaks though?

[Dextops]

Just now, QuartzBeam said:

What kinda tweaks though?

top of my list is better path finding so they actually go back to their houses or at least tp back to them once unloaded while untamed

[Ohan]

6 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

What kinda tweaks though?

What dextops said about TP back to their homes + i think they (at least the guards) should defend Wurt more as one of their own. them just idling while a hound wave is attacking wurt is kinda odd. 

not ai related but i think it would also be nice if she could "knock" on run-down merm houses to get all 4 of them outside to recruit. I only recently started really getting into wurt (i just always want to play worm ) and it feels lame having to wait for a tentacle or something to attack the 1 merm outside the house in order to get the rest out of there too. maybe there are other ways around this that im not aware of but having a way for wurt to bring them out would be nice i think. 

In general wurt could use a mini touch up i think (wishful thinking). i would love more interesting Merm king trading.. similar to Yaarctopus. Losing renewable gold through PK is a huge deal and what she gets in return are seeds, rot, kelp, tent spots and trinkets she has no use for. Craftsmerms being able to till farmplots near their houses (with their claws or when given a hoe) or something like that would also be awesome.

i think its a pity merms' tool use ability didnt come to DST, Fishermerms were such a neat feature in SW. 

[gghhrr]

22 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Beside, spiders have some weird little problems with being fighter:

• They will immediately eat the meat that falls on the floor, even Guardian's horn or Deerclops eyeball. While whistling can prevent this from happening, the amount of time left for the player to react is too short.

I would consider that is a tradeoff using Webber army, but meanwhile spider army don't seem worth it in long term game. Adding hunger and timer to spider may solve the problem, but causing another critical problem - LAG. A good example is huge efficient pigmans farm, and yet spiders will be worse than it obviously.

 

22 hours ago, Cassielu said:

here some suggestion:

• As was said in another topic, give the spider some ability to collect resources, which I thought would be neat considering Webber was a farm boy.

I've talked about Webber rework in farmer way, some people had criticized that Webber is not farmboy and should not work in that way. I feel Klei and some dudes might have already screwed up with Webber's positioning somehow.

from the video released, Webber is said that he begged for a way to change back(human form) no matter what price. So what actually is Webber's main goal in constant now?

Spoiler

 

1. return to normal human life and leave constant

2. live with spider and age in constant

These two goals pretty much contradict each other, therefore there should be only one choice for Webber boy, to decide the route he would be that way.

 

also, giving spiders ability to collect resource is not really good idea IMO, unrelated to Webber being farmboy or not. You can tell pigman having little bit sense of intelligent in DST as they could have simple communication. However spider do not, their role is predator or prey, it's gonna be pretty weird watching spiders to farm, treating them as well trained pet but not a friend for Webber.

So far Webber spider army isn't so worth to me, pretty much screwed up to fight bosses that's actual difficult for one, comparing to ability to befriend pig and bunnyman, he essentially losing their efficient farm and useful drops.

I rarely see people showing how good is Webber with their actual hard work instead of console command. nurse doodle is dirt cheap, but others are just too expensive, for example pig skin which Webber can barely access to huge amount of it without hammering pig houses. Even though friendship is permenant, but your spider army is likely to lose half or all of them to most heavy boss fight. 

Webber himself farming monster meats by spider war is just too lame, time consuming and inefficient. The entire night you spend to farm monster meats is even less than Wendy may do in a short time, that's why I keep talking about Wendy is better Webber as she always bring more benefit to a team than what Webber could.

other than these, some of your suggestions are really good and solid. Pretty much agree with most of them.

Webber is far away from completed IMO, but it depends Klei wants to continue developing this character deeper or he is just a side character after all. Turn out calling this is just QOLs or refresh is much more acceptable to me.

 

I know my opinions and words are always deadly boring and long, but if I make it short, some details will be missing and some dudes would just make some points that really can't counter the main point burning on the ass. Too long, they don't even read it at all since I know my grammer is too poor to make my words attractive. English isn't my primary language or one of the two based on cultured regions I've been living.

[Mysterious box]

46 minutes ago, gghhrr said:

I would consider that is a tradeoff using Webber army, but meanwhile spider army don't seem worth it in long term game. Adding hunger and timer to spider may solve the problem, but causing another critical problem - LAG. A good example is huge efficient pigmans farm, and yet spiders will be worse than it obviously.

 

I've talked about Webber rework in farmer way, some people had criticized that Webber is not farmboy and should not work in that way. I feel Klei and some dudes might have already screwed up with Webber's positioning somehow.

from the video released, Webber is said that he begged for a way to change back(human form) no matter what price. So what actually is Webber's main goal in constant now?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. return to normal human life and leave constant

2. live with spider and age in constant

These two goals pretty much contradict each other, therefore there should be only one choice for Webber boy, to decide the route he would be that way.

 

also, giving spiders ability to collect resource is not really good idea IMO, unrelated to Webber being farmboy or not. You can tell pigman having little bit sense of intelligent in DST as they could have simple communication. However spider do not, their role is predator or prey, it's gonna be pretty weird watching spiders to farm, treating them as well trained pet but not a friend for Webber.

So far Webber spider army isn't so worth to me, pretty much screwed up to fight bosses that's actual difficult for one, comparing to ability to befriend pig and bunnyman, he essentially losing their efficient farm and useful drops.

I rarely see people showing how good is Webber with their actual hard work instead of console command. nurse doodle is dirt cheap, but others are just too expensive, for example pig skin which Webber can barely access to huge amount of it without hammering pig houses. Even though friendship is permenant, but your spider army is likely to lose half or all of them to most heavy boss fight. 

Webber himself farming monster meats by spider war is just too lame, time consuming and inefficient. The entire night you spend to farm monster meats is even less than Wendy may do in a short time, that's why I keep talking about Wendy is better Webber as she always bring more benefit to a team than what Webber could.

other than these, some of your suggestions are really good and solid. Pretty much agree with most of them.

Webber is far away from completed IMO, but it depends Klei wants to continue developing this character deeper or he is just a side character after all. Turn out calling this is just QOLs or refresh is much more acceptable to me.

 

I know my opinions and words are always deadly boring and long, but if I make it short, some details will be missing and some dudes would just make some points that really can't counter the main point burning on the ass. Too long, they don't even read it at all since I know my grammer is too poor to make my words attractive. English isn't my primary language or one of the two based on cultured regions I've been living.

Wendy specializes in fighting hordes so of course she'll be better at taking on hordes. Webber on the other hand has a higher damage output than Wendy while requiring less resources overall then Wendy unless you server hop alot.(which is set to be fixed) Both Wendy and Webber have their own reasons to be picked.

Webber can use the same pig farm as other people the were pig thing the only difference is he can use his horde to take down the were pigs. As for the bunny men it's possible to farm them using his ranged attacking mobs in a pen though I don't believe bunny men are really worth farming.

Overall the spider army surpasses other followers in combat due to being self sustaining and have absolute loyalty while they won't harvest resources they get you enough for to make up for any investments you choose to make in them while being worthwhile to invest in.

[gghhrr]

32 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

-

I understand spider hordes deal more damage on "single target" than Abigail do, the main difference is when in a team, with Abigail, the output can be scaled far more significantly effective(stunning&clearing mobs) and powerful(buffing dps for everyone) without draining a single drop of allies' sanity. She is probably the only one who become better than Wolfgang for BQ raid.

While farming hordes of mobs, for example, spider, without a doubt Abigail will finish very quickly and get 100% of drop. Meanwhile Webber's spider could randomly distract or de-aggro and eat those meats/pigskins on the ground quickly. I don't believe anyone can stop their unpredictable action in those mess like spider civil war or pig-spider war, resulting less harvest even you are paying full concentration, and these fights also lasts very long even without a single nurse spider, this mean you might have to shoo every once a pig/spider is dead to guarantee 100% drop.

tbh, building huge pig farm is pain in ass for Webber, including maintainence where you need ice-flingo to guard to spider den/pighouse. Suppose Webber could get these pigskins for free from other players, but what Webber can return is too little to match against Wendy for doing the same job.

You may say Webber is character for fun that control spider army, but at what cost, ability to befriend pigmen and bunnymen where these mobs may alter the same or even better position like spider to Webber.

A day 1 Wendy could just defend entire hounds wave for group of survivors at night by standing still. With right potion, she could also clear frog rain(tho Woodie may do even better).

the fun and hilarious gameplay part generated by Webber can be exhausting quickly, at least this is what I've felt strongly from the past experience being Webber/lonely sailor on the sea. Joining the right and friendly survivors group always bring me more fun and enjoyable gameplay.

[Mysterious box]

23 minutes ago, gghhrr said:

I understand spider hordes deal more damage on "single target" than Abigail do, the main difference is when in a team, with Abigail, the output can be scaled far more significantly effective(stunning&clearing mobs) and powerful(buffing dps for everyone) without draining a single drop of allies' sanity. She is probably the only one who become better than Wolfgang for BQ raid.

While farming hordes of mobs, for example, spider, without a doubt Abigail will finish very quickly and get 100% of drop. Meanwhile Webber's spider could randomly distract or de-aggro and eat those meats/pigskins on the ground quickly. I don't believe anyone can stop their unpredictable action in those mess like spider civil war or pig-spider war, resulting less harvest even you are paying full concentration, and these fights also lasts very long even without a single nurse spider, this mean you might have to shoo every once a pig/spider is dead to guarantee 100% drop.

tbh, building huge pig farm is pain in ass for Webber, including maintainence where you need ice-flingo to guard to spider den/pighouse. Suppose Webber could get these pigskins for free from other players, but what Webber can return is too little to match against Wendy for doing the same job.

You may say Webber is character for fun that control spider army, but at what cost, ability to befriend pigmen and bunnymen where these mobs may alter the same or even better position like spider to Webber.

A day 1 Wendy could just defend entire hounds wave for group of survivors at night by standing still. With right potion, she could also clear frog rain(tho Woodie may do even better).

the fun and hilarious gameplay part generated by Webber can be exhausting quickly, at least this is what I've felt strongly from the past experience being Webber/lonely sailor on the sea. Joining the right and friendly survivors group always bring me more fun and enjoyable gameplay.

When fighting pigs and other such mobs there's plenty of time to grab the drops on death just by holding the space bar meat is a non issue you can blow to whistle to stop them if it's a mob with alot of drops on death or just hold space bar on a mob with afew drops as so long as it isn't a spider war you know who is going to die so you have more than enough time to pick up the single drop. spiders don't get distracted while fighting unless there's a boss who has the ability to scare them and if their not fighting the target you want you just need to blow the whistle to refocus their damage something most other followers can't do. Nothing about building a pig farm with webber would be hard you would simply have your followers kill the pigs if they get in the way of improving it there's legit no issues involved. The thing webber offers to the team is food be it meat, monster meat, silk etc. since in most scenarios he will still kill faster than wendy aside from spider horde battles. Also as you mentioned frog rain I feel webber is actually better at fighting frog rain than wendy or woodie as of this update due to his horde. While wendy has a lower resource investment webber has a higher ceiling.

There is no scenario where pigs and bunnymen offer you more for you investment as followers in combat because both will need constant feeding and you'll have to deal with them sleeping the day/night away and for as famous as bunnymen bee queen cheese is they aren't used as followers you just exploit their ai.

Then you also have to consider webber saves a huge amount of resources on healing and weapons thanks to his horde while also being able to face tank to add to the dps.

Also while she is best at the bee queen raid webber excels at most other boss battles in general due to again being able to ignore healing or kiting completely while assisting in the dps. He isn't just ok he's a very powerful character now.