Majestix Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I am honestly surprised with how much patience the troll is being met here. Kudos, guys, for staying so constructive and civil when a noob is losing their **** like this. I would never be able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleM999 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Majestix said: I am honestly surprised with how much patience the troll is being met here. Kudos, guys, for staying so constructive and civil when a noob is losing their **** like this. I would never be able to do that. That is part of our love for ONI, we want to share... even to nonbelievers. Even when they don't deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Yunru said: I disagree! Engineering is just applied physics, and physics is just codified observations. A game like ONI is actually possesses a fully known and complete field of physics, being all made of code. You are saying this exactly right. ONI is not a Physics simulation, it is a physics simulation. It simulates _a_ hypothetical physics, it does not simulate _the_ "standard model" Physics we think describes this physical universe to some degree. Note: Capitalization does matter But engineering is much more than applied Physics/physics. It is about structures, approaches, redundancy, risk-management, prioritization, efficiency, dividing problems, combining components, interfaces, design of standard components, small and large-scale interactions between components, "emergent properties", and, yes, even usability, safety, life-cycle management and proper documentation. And, yes, behind that all is observing what is with scrupulous honesty, accepting it as facts and then working with that. Nobody ever got good engineering results by complaining or denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majestix Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Gurgel said: ... And, yes, behind that all is observing what is with scrupulous honesty, accepting it as facts and then working with that. Nobody ever got good engineering results by complaining or denial. Wait, surely there must be a forum where I can complain about bad life design when the first most naive contraption that I could come up with doesn't work because of stupid laws of Physics!? In all seriousness, though, that was a beautiful declaration of love towards engineering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Majestix said: when the first most naive contraption that I could come up with doesn't work because of stupid laws of Physics!? Isn't that always when you try to flap your arms to fly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Majestix said: In all seriousness, though, that was a beautiful declaration of love towards engineering! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
he77789 Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 On 1/19/2021 at 8:36 PM, ZombieDupe said: There are games that do exactly that, and you rarely get any guides for them or people asking for help BECAUSE they are so well designed from start to finish. Minecraft is not intuitive at all, yet no one complains. Games with such severe hand holding are often games that rely on your reflexes or some other mechanical skill. If there was a version of minesweeper that analyzed your position and told you the best move automatically, it wouldn't be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMule Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 36 minutes ago, he77789 said: Minecraft is not intuitive at all, yet no one complains. Games with such severe hand holding are often games that rely on your reflexes or some other mechanical skill. If there was a version of minesweeper that analyzed your position and told you the best move automatically, it wouldn't be fun. Any game with a decent amount of depth requires much more study beyond in game tutorials. Try playing EVE online with just tutorial knowledge. Even the simplest of the games may develop a meta of sort, as humans are unpredictable and amazing at thinking outside the box, and at trading knowledge. Go back and read how people developed strategies for extremely simple games (pacman). Or read how people discovered internals of animations in combat games, developed a lexicon, to the point that the industry started using it to describe features of following games. Add some depth to the game and the idea that someone in isolation could re-discover all the knowledge that a connected community developed during years of playing a game is just absurd. Knowledge is meant to be shared in this game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 2 hours ago, TheMule said: Any game with a decent amount of depth requires much more study beyond in game tutorials. Try playing EVE online with just tutorial knowledge. Hahaha, I did that wayyyy back. Was a definite learning experience 2 hours ago, TheMule said: Add some depth to the game and the idea that someone in isolation could re-discover all the knowledge that a connected community developed during years of playing a game is just absurd. Knowledge is meant to be shared in this game... Well, yes and no. Sure, all great engineers are "standing on the shoulders of giants". On the other hand, you need to develop your own skills as well. So my approach is to try to get my own solution for something working and only then look at what others have done. This one has not failed me so far and quite a few times I found what I came up with to be better suited in the context of my own style of playing. The problem here is that "everybody knows xyz is the best approach" is usually a good indicator that it is not. Of course, it depends on what you want. But it is entirely possible to play ONI and get to permanent colony sustainability _without_ ever consulting solutions by others. That way you may either get more out of the game or you may be wallowing in frustration (or anywhere in between). What is right for somebody is a thing everybody has to find out for themselves. But what is also true is that ONI is not a simple game with regards to what you need to bring to the table mentally and that is what attracts most of the people here and keeps them engaged. A beautiful thing is that you do _not_ need a strong engineering or mathematics or physics background to successfully master what ONI throws at you. In fact, the only times I use a pocket calculator or online-calculator for ONI is for geyser output and the old rocketry. Asking to make things simpler when there _are_ perfectly valid, "non-clunky" solutions possible is asking for trouble because that is not what makes ONI engaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZombieDupe Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 This topic shares sentiments and ideas about what I'm trying to say that I'm not, but nothing I say at this point is going to matter at this point. I still hold the idea that steam turbine and aqua tuner should be changed to be more simple because even when that is done, there are hoops to go through to tame a cool steam vent. Enough that is much more reasonable and much more self-explanatory as you play. The way it is done right now is just poorly designed. @Majestix there is so much wrong with what you said that isn't worth my time and effort that I am going to ignore you said any of that. On 1/19/2021 at 7:24 PM, TripleM999 said: That is part of our love for ONI, we want to share... even to nonbelievers. Even when they don't deserve. This is the sort of elitist cringe that I wish wasn't around. Me saying this, I suspect someone to reply saying "you're getting free help from online forums, how dare you criticise the game" or something along those lines. You know what, sure, whatever, think that if you like, I can't be bothered anymore. Putting certain ideas forward at a certain time, place and a given situation is just a thing that exists and can turn discourse in a completely different direction, it's kind of sad, but I guess I just have to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyD Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Stay on topic, stay polite and constructive or I will close this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinhPham Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 I wasn't there but i think the very first released steam turbine was completely difference from this current one, and probably works with 100C steam ... 100C steam turbine = free energy from coolsteamvent, and DEVs don't like that ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 hour ago, MinhPham said: I wasn't there but i think the very first released steam turbine was completely difference from this current one, and probably works with 100C steam ... If I'm nor mistaken, the previous steam turbine needed 225 C steam, low/high pressure above/below it and didn't have a pipe to convert steam to water nor tiles in between. Also, it never had a use of cooling cool steam vents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 The original steam engine was hell for Michael Bay players like me I never got the initial steam engine working. First time since the beginning of ONi I see general Klei police in an ONi thread, keep the happy vibes up If the ONi DLC is a success there will be much more action going on in the ONi forum section, touch wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickrush Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Hey I just wanted to add something that I think is important to understand about ONIs game design, because that was repeatedly being criticized: There is a deeper reason to why the type of “solution” the OP proposed would be very atypical for ONI. Almost all solutions to a given problem are designed in such a way that they force a new challenge upon the player, typically by introducing a different type of cost, waste product, dependency or some other impact on the rest of your base or asteroid. This is very important, because it forces the player to think about the system as a whole, creates fun, ever growing challenges and can lead to creative base building and problem solving. If this where not the case, then the game would simply be a quite boring series of closed, independent solutions. This type of feature balancing is obviously deliberate and decidedly good design. The geyser cooling example is incidentally one of the best illustrations of that. It was one of the first features that introduced sustainability to the game and there have been countless different solutions, variations and discussions around it since. Just in this thread alone, there have been 3-4 viable ways to use/cool the geyser and there are quite a few more, especially if you count in different variations and optimizations. If the solution was simply “just put building X on top of it” then there wouldn’t be much of a game left to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 @clickrush When players start blowing their reactors up there will be lots of new posts Radio Unreal ### RBMK1000 "Electra Centrale" ### Ironman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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