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What Do You Think About Clientside Cheats


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Im surprised how permisive is people with cheats in this game. Its like playing the game as is intended sounds even weird or like a dictator, like people that play without cheats must be sorry or something

People are free to play like they want but justify cheating is something i only seen in this game

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On 1/13/2021 at 7:56 AM, Well-met said:

klei should yeet all cheats

If they did any big Roleplay server like mine that uses console and Creative commands, and Too Many Items would be back to square one. We use them everyday and it's not a good idea unless it's cheating or getting skins that you do not own, or anything that provides an unfair advantage.

On 1/12/2021 at 12:18 PM, Slagger said:

Craft Pot

And I use that every day for my short term memory loss, yes it's to help you know what you are cooking but I recommend it to a lot of new players who want to get used to learning the cooking recipe's.

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9 hours ago, FairyInABottle said:

I care because succeeding or failing in the game is a team effort. It's not like I can just ignore the things they build or grow. The nature of the game means building a base and pooling resources. I can't tell what is legit or not. Most other games vanilla is default, you have to go out of your way to play modded with other people.

If someone knows were everything is, what is the point of exploring?

Because someone else knowing where something is has a negligible impact on your experience? I join a public server with no client side mods, and find the ruins day 3 anyway. So I guess with night vision mods they're finding it day 1? 2? I don't see the problem. It's not like these mods are letting people kill FW on day 5 or something. (And even that is astronomically early to the point of impossibility) You guys are acting like these client mods are capable of server-mod-level impacts. I don't know any client mod that severely changes the way people play outside of camera mods and nightvision mods. And even those mods will only get someone so far. So what someone has night vision... what does that entail? Seriously, I'd like to know what the real consequences are for you if someone on your server has night vision, or a camera mod. Because if it means they can discover the ruins early, then they are already on par with many other players who can do the same thing without a single mod. Otherwise, it's not like these mods are suddenly turning bad players into gods.

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If someone is just going to produce 50+ giant vegetables, why bother with any other food sources? What challenge is left? It's just going through the motions. If someone is cheating to get around the effort, why am I even bothering?

Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't know of a client sided mod that produces 50+ giant vegetables on a whim.

On 1/13/2021 at 9:42 AM, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

While I do concur exploits of any type should be rooted out from DST as a principle of healthy gaming, your mentioned mods, OP, aren't really "game-breaking" as they may appear at a first glance (subjective assessment).

 

I personally don't get why someone would use Action Queue because I like every action in DS/T, including menial ones, being part of the game experience - yet if people desire to look at an automatic sequence of events and still consider/call it gaming, that's their prerogative. Would they be more efficient than vanilla? Yes, but this is not a contest, not a competitive game - so it doesn't really matter in the end.

Craft Pot and Farm Plant Needs, while bypassing in-game mandatory gear necessary for such information to be known, they ultimately have a teaching role and with time players won't even need such mods anymore.

Geometric Placement and Snapping Tills I honestly don't know why aren't game features by now - in an ideal game environment we should be provided by KLei with precise tools for nice aesthetic base arrangements; yes, that would be in principle against the Survival aspect, but much in-tune with its Sandbox facet. Also let's be honest here: late-game is mainly about base-building and shaping the world to one's will.

As for Nightvision for Free (client side), frankly I see its use only for advanced efficient players with "flexible morality". If you don't master DST mechanics and aren't fairly knowledgeable, even with that mod on you'll still be nixed by a myriad of threats. And is not like there isn't a simple 1-line console command that would give you night vision on every server to begin with..

 

In the end I support the idea people should play their game however they want to. Once more: DST isn't a competitive game, but a pretty lax "chose your objective" type aside basic survival. And is KLei's responsibility to take care of their game ("healthy gaming") however they desire - if they consider console commands and such above-mentioned mods "fair game" on personal and public servers alike, oh well, is their choice and right to do so.

I wholeheartedly agree with nearly everything you said here. I like action queue though, because I prefer to watch videos while I collect grass, and I also don't enjoy holding down spacebar for 2 minutes picking up gold pieces dropped by pig king.

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

Having been part of many other videogame communities, I would argue the way many users like you behave so relaxed toward cheating (the consensus is cheating is basically seen as the worst inexcusable sin in any online game) is actually you people standing out. It's not about purism at all; the players you are calling out are simply wishing that everyone be equals in terms of mechanics and abilities. DS is the only community I've seen that has no qualms about cheating and I've been videogaming for about 16 years now. To me, you are the "really weird one".

Mods are not frowned upon, indeed they are the very life of a community playerbase. However, mods in other videogames never affect gameplay unless the game is hosted straight from the user's computer. DST is no exception. If you want gameplay mods on your own server, nobody is stopping you and nobody will complain about it. If people dislike it they will not join your server and that's the end of it. Things are different when the server in question is hosted by the game developer themselves. They are showcasing the game at its vanilla state and how they meant it to be played. If you have a mod that gives you clear advantages over your fellow players in such a server (the default gameplay), then that's where things become questionable.

Console players often despair that they do not have mods, but I would rather say they are blessed in the guarantee that everyone plays fair and is at the same odds.

With no offense intended, sometimes it is exceedingly obvious many of the posters here are maintaining their first online videogame experience or indeed even their first internet forum. Things just work differently out there, for instance something as simple as expecting all players to have the same abilities and fairness between themselves when they are presented a challenge.

Also, "it's not competitive" "it's just AI", these overused excuses have never been relevant. Even in cooperative games, players are subconsciously fighting eachother for ressources and items. Either way, it's not fun knowing you provide extra effort and overcome extra challenge you know others do not have to, unless your character or class designs it that way. Balance ensures extra abilities are compensated by extra downsides -when done properly- (this is why character balance is so important)

I don't know of a single client sided mod that provides this superior edge that everyone is talking about. I'm not pretending to be an exceptionally good player. I die all the time. But I have never played in a public server where others are massively outperforming compared to me (Not that I don't get outperformed, just that I don't see people who are just crushing in terms of metrics and subsequently leaving me in the dust). What resources are you fighting for? Gold? What mod allows someone to get gold faster than anyone else, therefore depriving you and any other player of that resource? Maybe you're fighting over MacTusk drops for a walking cane? What mod allows someone to find and kill MacTusk earlier than anyone else, thus removing the option for you to ever get one? Maybe you're fighting over ruins resources? It's summertime and you're ready to explore the ruins! But by the time you get there, it turns out someone has already explored the ruins :( Must have been a filthy modder. OR it was me. I cleared the ruins before summer, and I didn't use any mods. The same issue crops up even without mods here.

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The client mod for 50+ veggies is kind of making it sound worse than it is, it is more of an outline on what your plants need to grow big, so you still need to put in the effort and time into growing them.

I agree with @Souper's post because, at the end of the day, this is still a casual sandbox game, meaning the whole game is tailored for you to enjoy it however you like it, not a competitive one; so we might as well have a little fun however they like, client or server wise; it will be their fault if they ruin the game experience for themselves. If you do not like it, create your servers, and enforce your rules, no one is forcing you to play in public servers.

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While I won't fully go out of my way to defend mods that make the game more convenient or help players with lesser skill levels learn/play the game I feel like talking about the talk about people not playing the game is intended is abit hypocritical on the parts of some as whether we want to admit it or not using the wiki, YouTube guides, a.i. exploits, auto food farming methods, and cheesing boss fights are all cheating as it is not playing the game as intended which I'm sure alot of people even in this very thread use taking a purist no mod approach is hypocrisy when the game have a dedicated section to them in the menu's. That being said I very much am against client mods that give abilities or information that should not be available such as the map and farming needs tho I feel it's fine to use mods that would for example show you crockpot recipes because as mentioned before the wiki and even these very forums make that knowledge very public.

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2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so? both arent intended, the items are

I guess you didn't quite understand the thread then. My point in bringing up the wiki is to highlight the issue people have with these "cheats" is not exclusive to the mods themselves. The wiki is just as accountable for these "advantages" people are listing. Should we abolish the wiki? No.

Furthermore, I don't know why anyone is bringing up the Farm Plant Needs mod, seeing as it is a server sided mod.

2 minutes ago, Pinkamena11FazP said:

There is it's called Happy Farm, but it's a server side only mod for people who are so impatient (like me) to just speed up the growth and have giant plants, and the only con we get is rotten foods and the big fruit fly boss.

Yes. I personally don't include drastic, game-changing mods like this in my personal servers because it just makes the game far easier. This is my own personal playstyle though. This thread is talking about client sided mods, which do not have nearly as big an impact as such server sided mods.

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1 minute ago, Souper said:

I guess you didn't quite understand the thread then. My point in bringing up the wiki is to highlight the issue people have with these "cheats" is not exclusive to the mods themselves. The wiki is just as accountable for these "advantages" people are listing. Should we abolish the wiki? No.

Furthermore, I don't know why anyone is bringing up the Farm Plant Needs mod, seeing as it is a server sided mod.

I believe that they are mentioning client sided mods like Nutrient Overlay

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First, some technical-ish stuff.

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But there is just "Cheat" mods that bassicly break game mechanics and use client side system againist to the game like:

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I reported them first but didn't get response. And I said what do you think in topic. And also (again)

I can't see reporting them doing anything as they don't seem to violate any ToS. 
Actual cheats (such as picking from pickables at a much farther range than you are supposed to be able to) get fixed, but none of the mods you have outlined do anything that isn't allowed by the restrictions set in place (generally set for I/O stuff). 

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I hope Klei fix this problem and force to make this mod server side.

There isn't really a good or feasible way to do this, as far as I'm aware. (I assume you are referring to Night vision). HUD/visuals are game elements that are SUPPOSED to be handled by clients. Requiring the server to maintain & interact with visuals is a good way to introduce different sources of lag, ranging from input to performance. This would make it harder for people with lower end hardware to play with others (and even solo). 

Farm Plant Needs is a server mod already and has to remain that way (since stress is not replicated).

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He said I'm just using a mod and I realized how they use game's vulner againist it.

Not a vulnerability. If access was meant to be restricted to plant stress, it would have been. (which would be very unconventional and go against what I believe is the intended engine design)Even if they restricted access to it, it would most likely be a matter of just pushing information retrieval somewhere else unless Klei went hardcore and checked everything from environments to the debug info.

My View

While I personally have reasoning/justification for different mods (as I'm sure everyone has their own), I only really care about the technical aspects mentioned above. The only kind of mods I classify as bad are ones that give you skins (how dare you) or do stuff with your game files. If I don't like the way a mod affects gameplay, I just won't use it. The only mods I classify as cheats are the ones that are ACTUAL cheats (like picking farther than you should but that got fixed so). I like pushing the bounds with mods and trying new things, especially if they haven't been done before.

Spoiler

Is it impossible to do, or has no one bothered to do so? How useful is it? Would it be a pain to make? How many hours can I spend looking for my single typo destroying hundreds of lines of code? How do flippers affect program development time when compared to fingers?  These are questions that can only be answered by programming more.

If for some strange reason you are interested in my specific thoughts on the mods outlined by Slagger, they're below :P

Spoiler

My general philosophy for mods is: If I can do it with a paper and pencil, there's no reason it should be looked down upon.

Snapping Tills - I don't use it, but looks quite nice to me.
Wormwood Flower Extender - Same as above.
Item Info - I don't use this, I use a different mod since Item Info is, as you stated, laggy (and IMO ancient). Regardless, this type of mod is generally just a shortcut to the wiki.
Geometric Placement - A gift from the gods :angel:


Craft Pot - Either use this or have the wiki open next to you. Has no functional difference. Just like the description says, "Don't you think cooking and crafting are lot alike?".

Action Queue - Largely recreatable with holding space or clicking. Only makes a difference when you queue actions in a larger area, whereas without the mod you would need to hold W,A,S,D for a second or so. Mod is a-okay.


Nightvision for Free (Clientside) - Not my cup of tea, but I don't really care if someone uses it. Doesn't provide any significant advantage I can think of at the moment, since you are still subject to the penalties associated with darkness.

Farm Plant Needs - Can be largely reproduced with some eye action. Only real issue I can see being brought up is nutrients, which I think can be circumvented if you strain your eyes hard enough on the soil. Not to mention you could make a mod that reveals an estimation of the nutrients on the client anyway, as Souper just showed two posts above.

 

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9 hours ago, FairyInABottle said:

I care because succeeding or failing in the game is a team effort. It's not like I can just ignore the things they build or grow. The nature of the game means building a base and pooling resources. I can't tell what is legit or not. Most other games vanilla is default, you have to go out of your way to play modded with other people.

If someone knows were everything is, what is the point of exploring? If someone is just going to produce 50+ giant vegetables, why bother with any other food sources? What challenge is left? It's just going through the motions. If someone is cheating to get around the effort, why am I even bothering?

Except "succeeding or failing in the game" isn't actually a team effort. If you are a recurrent pub player (the KLei official vanilla Survival servers variety), you know pub games are anything but a team endeavor - in fact in most pubs there isn't anything even remotely close to "teams". More-so, KLei pubs are the true "wild west" of them servers out there: totally un-moderated, where griefing runs rampant, most people don't even know what are doing or have any semblance of a plan aside wandering around aimlessly, and sessions last at most till 1st Winter hits. In this hectic environment some advanced players do certain speed-runs, like taking down giants, Ruins rushes, Moon rushes etc - but they are a tiny portion of players frequenting those pubs. Bringing out the "legit or not" aspect in such chaotic rooms where griefing happens on daily basis is pretty redundant. Again: if team effort is your desired outcome, I strongly advice you to avoid KLei pubs - those servers aren't impartial grounds where "everyone are equals in terms of mechanics and abilities" or KLei is "showcasing the game at its vanilla state and how they meant it to be played", that's just an illusion and DST pub-beginner trap. Furthermore, DST has many-many bugs that can and will certainly be exploited - check DST Bug Tracker to see the plethora of problems game seems to have, and notice by far an overwhelming majority of them are in "Pending" state, meaning they haven't been addressed - and, if past is a good indicator, vast majority of them will not be addressed in any shape or form. In the end this lack of attention from KLei towards reported bugs (game's health) actually emboldens exploits usage - rooting further the "if they don't care, why should I?!" inherent mentality. Otherwise always expect in pubs "the lowest common denominator" and prepare for the worst; as someone previously commented: is a "people problem" when given "free reign", aka devs not fixing exploitable (reported) bugs, permitting pub console commands to non-admins and such.

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1 hour ago, YesterdaysLemon said:

The client mod for 50+ veggies is kind of making it sound worse than it is, it is more of an outline on what your plants need to grow big, so you still need to put in the effort and time into growing them.

 

I agree with @Souper's post because, at the end of the day, this is still a casual sandbox game, meaning the whole game is tailored for you to enjoy it however you like it, not a competitive one; so we might as well have a little fun however they like, client or server wise; it will be their fault if they ruin the game experience for themselves. If you do not like it, create your servers, and enforce your rules, no one is forcing you to play in public servers.

 

I just booted up the game and the tagline is: An Uncompromising Wilderness Survival Game Full of Science and Magic. I wouldn't call it casual.

And even if I made my own server, ignoring that the player base is small, I still wouldn't be able to tell if someone was cheating or not. And it goes both ways, no one is forcing anybody to cheat. I honestly can't believe I'm being told "if you don't like cheaters, play by yourself".

54 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Except "succeeding or failing in the game" isn't actually a team effort. If you are a recurrent pub player (the KLei official vanilla Survival servers variety), you know pub games are anything but a team endeavor - in fact in most pubs there isn't anything even remotely close to "teams". More-so, KLei pubs are the true "wild west" of them servers out there: totally un-moderated, where griefing runs rampant, most people don't even know what are doing or have any semblance of a plan aside wandering around aimlessly, and sessions last at most till 1st Winter hits. In this hectic environment some advanced players do certain speed-runs, like taking down giants, Ruins rushes, Moon rushes etc - but they are a tiny portion of players frequenting those pubs. Bringing out the "legit or not" aspect in such chaotic rooms where griefing happens on daily basis is pretty redundant. Again: if team effort is your desired outcome, I strongly advice you to avoid KLei pubs - those servers aren't impartial grounds where "everyone are equals in terms of mechanics and abilities" or KLei is "showcasing the game at its vanilla state and how they meant it to be played", that's just an illusion and DST pub-beginner trap. Furthermore, DST has many-many bugs that can and will certainly be exploited - check DST Bug Tracker to see the plethora of problems game seems to have, and notice by far an overwhelming majority of them are in "Pending" state, meaning they haven't been addressed - and, if past is a good indicator, vast majority of them will not be addressed in any shape or form. In the end this lack of attention from KLei towards reported bugs (game's health) actually emboldens exploits usage - rooting further the "if they don't care, why should I?!" inherent mentality. Otherwise always expect in pubs "the lowest common denominator" and prepare for the worst; as someone previously commented: is a "people problem" when given "free reign", aka devs not fixing exploitable (reported) bugs, permitting pub console commands to non-admins and such.

I don't know what public servers you are playing on but I've seen plenty of resources sharing, revives, rushes, and general assistance.

 

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1 minute ago, FairyInABottle said:

I just booted up the game and the tagline is: An Uncompromising Wilderness Survival Game Full of Science and Magic. I wouldn't call it casual.

And even if I made my own server, ignoring that the player base is small, I still wouldn't be able to tell if someone was cheating or not. And it goes both ways, no one is forcing anybody to cheat. I honestly can't believe I'm being told "if you don't like cheaters, play by yourself".

This is why my argument is that it's barely even considered cheating. It doesn't offer any real advantage, in my opinion. You can argue that it definitely has its uses, but I don't think it affects anyone in any adverse way.

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6 minutes ago, FairyInABottle said:

I don't know what public servers you are playing on but I've seen plenty of resources sharing, revives, rushes, and general assistance.

 

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

...the KLei official vanilla Survival servers variety...

 

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3 minutes ago, FairyInABottle said:

Yeah, same as me. That's my point.

Play more. You will surely see what am writing about.

Tip of the day: watch out for a certain "gonzapela" player, he is the new Clouds of EU KLei official servers - if you don't know what am hinting at, consider yourself lucky. Btw, my assessment is about the KLei European servers. If you're playing on other regional pubs, situation may differ. But as a proverbial rule-of-thumb, KLei pubs are chaotic.

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To defend the Wiki.. (however inaccurate and completely wrong it may be at times) back in my day I had to go to a store and buy books titled Nintendo Power, or Prima Strategy Guides- Books that would cost roughly 20-40$ themselves (depending on size and contents of the Book)

the only difference now days is people aren’t going to go buy this 20-40$ book when they can just look that information up Online and for Free.

But anyway, Not all mods are bad, but then again.. not every mod is good either, so my best advice is to play in your servers with X mod unavailable if it really bothers you.

(you guys can choose what mods are allowed/disallowed can’t you?) 

Us console players may be extremely disheartened that Klei officially acknowledges and provides links to mods like Regorgitated, Re-Forged, Etc... But at least we don’t have to worry about who is playing legit and who’s using tons of mods.

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@Mike23Ua: Yes and no; if you are the server owner you can control what server-sided mods are on said server, as a player you can view what mods they have and avoid that server if you do not want to play with the mods applied. Client mods on the other hand cannot be controlled nor viewed by anyone but the player who has them enabled, which is what this whole thread is about, questioning whether it is good to bad with mods that may give the user an advantage over others who do not have the mod.

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Client-side mods are supposed to personalise the way you experience DST independently of the server. In theory, your own gameplay should not be affected when others use client-side mods, and if it were, someone using no mods should be able to cause the same level of disturbance. In that sense, it is hard for me to see how anyone could "cheat" using client-side mods. Again, since they are supposed to personalise your experience, you should ultimately be your own judge, and only use the client-side mods you want to use. 

Now, maybe we have not made a clear distinction between client-side mods that do not require admin privileges to work and those who do... running remote commands using a mod is, in fact, very game breaking if misused.

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