Tungsten and Niobium volcano output is a bit too hot

[he77789]

On 1/1/2021 at 9:58 AM, ZombieDupe said:

External guides are the reason steam turbine + aqua tuner cooling method is not a good solution if you just want to go in blind.

Minecraft also has no tutorial or hand holding, yet there's not much complaint about that.

BTW fullerene is in the base game, it's just a matter of time of when it comes

[nakomaru]

18 hours ago, ghkbrew said:

There was a patch a while ago where they stopped built tiles from flaking.  I think it was all material backed buildings actually. (including doors, joint plates, etc)

I knew I wasn't crazy. Probably. Glad to know it's fixed.

[TripleM999]

22 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

I knew I wasn't crazy. Probably. Glad to know it's fixed.

Everytime, one more building is found, which could be flaked, they fixed it, like here. Clearly not intended, and i hope, they found all.

[ZombieDupe]

On 1/12/2021 at 1:47 PM, sakura_sk said:

Sorry.. TL;DR.. but I'm curious... Did you actually see insulation melting? The only case I've seen insulation melting is a build to produce tungsten and in that build what melts is regular pipes made of insulation not anything "insulated".

It would take a very long time for sure, but it would be inevitable. And my problem is the very fact that it could melt, because the output of the volcanoes is at over 3700C while insulation will melt at around 3620C. It is a suitable material for taming for a very long time, but the very fact that it could inevitably melt just isn't fair in my opinion. Making the volcano output 200C lower is a simple change but that would make all the difference.

On 1/13/2021 at 3:24 AM, he77789 said:

Minecraft also has no tutorial or hand holding, yet there's not much complaint about that.

That's a can of worms you don't want to open in this topic

[sakura_sk]

10 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

It would take a very long time for sure, but it would be inevitable.

But that's the point... insulated tiles made from insulation won't melt. It is one of the properties of perfect insulation not to exchange temperature with anything when building insulated tiles/pipes. 

But you only theoretically expect it to melt and not test it if it melts. Not even ceramic (that DOES exchange temperature eventually) will melt that fast. So... I will stop responding to that argument because there is no point.

[ZombieDupe]

Just now, sakura_sk said:

But that's the point... insulated tiles made from insulation won't melt. It is one of the properties of perfect insulation not to exchange temperature with anything when building insulated tiles/pipes. 

But you only theoretically expect it to melt and not test it if it melts. Not even ceramic (that DOES exchange temperature eventually) will melt that fast. So... I will stop responding to that argument because there is no point.

No, it will still exchange heat. The 0.000 exchange rate, as it is for abyssalite is the case for insulation, is giving you false information. The heat exchange rate is actually 0.0001 and if you wanted actual perfect insulation, you would need to have vacuum setup. Of course, that is not possible for taming if the niobium/tungsten is resting on top of insulation tiles for containment. It's the best there is, but the best there is isn't good enough and you would have to go out of your way to know to cool down the tiles with radiant pipes, which isn't reasonable to expect for someone to do without thorough deep-dive in games mechanics with addition to guides. You could also use airflow tiles with vacuum in the middle, but that's using an exploit that you will probably never discover on your own. I wouldn't even consider using ceramic to tame these volcanoes, since it will melt at a much lower temperature and is much worse as an insulator than insulation. Obsidian is about as dangerous. If you take the necessary precautions, a tamer setup won't fail, but that is if you do, and if you don't, everything melts. My problem is the very fact that it is possible at all for these volcanoes to melt insulation, due to the temperature differential. Are you that adamant about the volcanoes not being made 200C cooler, or what? The test would take forever because of how little heat exchange there actually is, but I know for a fact that it could fail due to the temperature difference in volcano output and insulation's melting point.

[sakura_sk]

3 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

The test would take forever because of how little heat exchange there actually is

So.. you won't test it but argue about it. Ok...

4 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Are you that adamant about the volcanoes not being made 200C cooler, or what?

I just would like to take the challenges made by the game "as is" and as designed by the developers in the course of several years. If I worry about volcano taming, I just don't tame them and see how that goes (in DLC is really easy not to overheat the main base even with a gold volcano which is the easiest to tame). I've also seen many hours of gameplay (meaning also of other players) to understand how even the things I don't dare to do work.

[ZombieDupe]

14 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

So.. you won't test it but argue about it. Ok...

What do you want me to test exactly? Just throw a pool of niobium over insulation and wait thousands of cycles for it to melt? There is no need for that, my problem is the fact that it could melt at all to begin with, and it could, because there is heat exchange and the output temperature of the volcanoes is higher than insulation's melting point.

14 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I just would like to take the challenges made by the game "as is" and as designed by the developers in the course of several years. If I worry about volcano taming, I just don't tame them and see how that goes (in DLC is really easy not to overheat the main base even with a gold volcano which is the easiest to tame). I've also seen many hours of gameplay (meaning also of other players) to understand how even the things I don't dare to do work.

If you think this game is well designed, I could not disagree more, Terra start difficulty is a prime example of awful game design. Taking the challenge as is, is good and expected for you to do so and that is precisely the reason I am proposing the lower output temperature of these volcanoes, so as the challenge isn't unreasonable. You would be going in blind, expecting to tame volcano just fine, and then one fateful cycle the entire thing bursts because the insulated tiles heated up to the material's melting point and by then it is too late to do anything about it. And you could spiral into the territory of the entire asteroid being off-limits for you forever, as I have mentioned before.

[sakura_sk]

22 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Just throw a pool of niobium over insulation and wait thousands of cycles for it to melt?

Yes...? Or at least 500-1000 to see it change 1 degree. That is "testing if it works", right?

23 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Terra start difficulty is a prime example of awful game design

Terra star (Spaced out DLC "early access") ≠ Terra (base game)

Yes. I think Terra is well designed.

Also Terra star (early access) ≠ insulation

Either way.. if you made it to .. let's say.. 5000-7000 cycles and your volcano insulation started heating up (I would expect it to heat up -if it can heat up- 10-20 degrees from its build temperature which is default 45), you could put another layer of insulation (just an amateur patch that I use often) or just find some other build to tame volcanos after thousands of cycles of play. Taming volcanos is something players started to do (I think... ) to claim every bit of material offered. You don't "have to" tame a niobium volcano.

[0xFADE]

Life has many doors ed-boy.  Last I remembered when they fixed the flaking they didn't fix it properly.

[Nedix]

12 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Life has many doors ed-boy.

The Rolf reference made me chuckle (if it was indeed a Rolf reference)

[Yunru]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

What do you want me to test exactly? Just throw a pool of niobium over insulation and wait thousands of cycles for it to melt?

Yes, the thing that would actually verify your claim. 

It's not hard, you can even use my setup that allows you to AFK it (the hydro sensors are set to above 0, and the alert pauses the game). 

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

No, it will still exchange heat. 

There actually is a lower bound on temperature change and if you are below that, no heat exchange. This comes from the game using IEEE754 single floats, which only have 24 significant bits. Without testing it out and assuming the game uses Kelvin internally, that means if the change is lower than around 0.00001C for a block at 0C, no heat transfer because the target temperature adjustment does not change the temperature. For y << x, you get x + y = x in standard float implementations.

Now, I am too lazy to calculate that for Insulation insulating blocks, but I would not be surprised if they never heat up here.

[he77789]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

If you take the necessary precautions, a tamer setup won't fail, but that is if you do, and if you don't, everything melts.

It takes less than a minute searching in the in game database to find out that the hot niobium could melt insulation. If you still don't take any action for thousands of cycles, then it's your own fault.

[nakomaru]

It's not because of floats. There is a minimum of 0.1 DTU of heat to be transferred, otherwise, it is not. You used to be able to flake insulated insulation tiiles because flaking ignores thermal conductivity and didn't have a special flag to disable it for constructed tiles. You can chill it with liquid hydrogen and heat it up with rockets, but you cannot melt it in any natural way.

(you can melt it in other forms: tempshift plate, normal tiles, normal pipes)

[Yunru]

15 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

It's not because of floats. There is a minimum of 0.1 DTU of heat to be transferred, otherwise, it is not.

Would that mean that, after 100 cycles, either there would either be evidence of heat exchange, or heat will not occur? 

[TripleM999]

2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

(you can melt it in other forms: tempshift plate, normal tiles, normal pipes)

he could even cool the insulated tiles with a backhand tempshift, if deemed necessary. 

[nakomaru]

3 hours ago, Yunru said:

Would that mean that, after 100 cycles, either there would either be evidence of heat exchange, or heat will not occur? 

You really only need 1/5th of a second to test if there will ever be heat transfer.

Here's 20C insulated insulation tiles vs 9900 K hydrogen gas, and sampling the the exact temperature with the debug sample tool. It will never change from these values.

Also, sorry @Gurgel - I spoke too soon. 0.1 DTU is not the whole story - it's possible a temperature change must indeed be above a certain limit due to 7 digits of precision. Therefore I believe temperature changes above 1000 K are clamped by minimum changes in temperature of 0.001 K, and temperature changes in the 100-999 K range have a lower minimum change of 0.0001 K. (it's possible these minimum can be halved due to rounding up - not sure)

I think this might even be per side of the transfer, which probably explains some heat creation/deletion phenomena at very high masses. (e.g. one side is precision clamped, but the second side is not - the second side can change temperature without influencing the other).

1 hour ago, TripleM999 said:

he could even cool the insulated tiles with a backhand tempshift, if deemed necessary. 

You can cool it with liquid hydrogen due to flaking, but I can't get a thermium tempshift to influence insulated insulation at all.

[TripleM999]

16 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

You can cool it with liquid hydrogen due to flaking, but I can't get a thermium tempshift to influence insulated insulation at all.

Could be, that this was fixed then too... influencing insulated tiles with tempshift plates. Was always recommended to leave one space between tempshifts and insulated walls.

[nakomaru]

You might be thinking of neutronium, which tempshift plates can heat up but not cool down. However, neutronium has no heat capacity, so heating even 10000 tons of it to 3000K uses no energy.

[edit] Oh, if you mean ordinary (e.g. ceramic) insulated tiles, yes you can just cool those with tempshift plates.

[Gurgel]

4 hours ago, nakomaru said:

It's not because of floats. There is a minimum of 0.1 DTU of heat to be transferred, otherwise, it is not.

Ah, thanks. I did search for that but failed to find it and thought I remembered this incorrectly. So the limit below which there is no transfer may be even higher.

2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Also, sorry @Gurgel - I spoke too soon. 0.1 DTU is not the whole story - it's possible a temperature change must indeed be above a certain limit due to 7 digits of precision. Therefore I believe temperature changes above 1000 K are clamped by minimum changes in temperature of 0.001 K, and temperature changes in the 100-999 K range have a lower minimum change of 0.0001 K. (it's possible these minimum can be halved due to rounding up - not sure)

I think this might even be per side of the transfer, which probably explains some heat creation/deletion phenomena at very high masses. (e.g. one side is precision clamped, but the second side is not - the second side can change temperature without influencing the other).

Hmm. Anyways, there is a hard lower limit and it is pretty high, relatively speaking. Also, this being 0.0001 K for 100....999K is pretty suggestive, because at 0C, the float limit works out to pretty close to that when you take rounding into account. 

[Yunru]

So thread done then; op made an incorrect assumption (that niobium being hotter than the melting point of, say, ceramic meant that niobium could transfer that heat to insulated tiles made of it), didn't bother to test it, and thus the entire thread built around it collapses? :P

[ZombieDupe]

On 1/14/2021 at 3:30 PM, Yunru said:

So thread done then; op made an incorrect assumption (that niobium being hotter than the melting point of, say, ceramic meant that niobium could transfer that heat to insulated tiles made of it), didn't bother to test it, and thus the entire thread built around it collapses? :P

Not quite...

On 1/14/2021 at 11:13 AM, nakomaru said:

It's not because of floats. There is a minimum of 0.1 DTU of heat to be transferred, otherwise, it is not. You used to be able to flake insulated insulation tiiles because flaking ignores thermal conductivity and didn't have a special flag to disable it for constructed tiles. You can chill it with liquid hydrogen and heat it up with rockets, but you cannot melt it in any natural way.

(you can melt it in other forms: tempshift plate, normal tiles, normal pipes)

That would explain it. I figured since the insulative insulation pipes could exchange heat, so would the tiles, my bad. The material itself also appears to not exchange heat. Putting the insulated pipes however, the heat transfer was much faster than I thought it would be (0.1C per second). Either way, it can very easily become impossible to do anything in the area because wolframite rovers can melt very quickly, even if there is just a few grams of rock gas above the melting temperature of wolframite piling on in the area.

Side note...

On 1/14/2021 at 7:47 AM, sakura_sk said:

Yes...? Or at least 500-1000 to see it change 1 degree. That is "testing if it works", right?

Terra star (Spaced out DLC "early access") ≠ Terra (base game)

Yes. I think Terra is well designed.

No it really isn't, here's why. It's supposedly the "easiest" asteroid. Try telling that to new players who wouldn't you know it would take the first thing to start and not research for an hour before picking a starting asteroid. Doesn't help that conditions for Terra say "ideal" when it's a complete lie.

Terra start:

* Heat (hard to deal with)

* Slimelung (not bad if you know what you are doing, TERRIFYING if you are new)

* Two awful cool steam vents for water source at 110C

 

Swampy start:

* A little cold (easy to deal with)

* Surrounded by an easy to excavate oasis biome with useful stuff

* Two awesome cold slush geysers for water source at -10C

* Salty slush geyser an easy renewable source of sand as well

 

You could make a similar point comparing Terra and Rime in base game. So yeah, it's terribly designed and should not be as difficult.

[TheMule]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:29 AM, ZombieDupe said:

Terra start:

* Heat (hard to deal with)

* Slimelung (not bad if you know what you are doing, TERRIFYING if you are new)

* Two awful cool steam vents for water source at 110C

First, that's the Terra start in the DLC. I don't think newbies are supposed to start with the DLC at all. It's early access, by definition bugged. As a newbie you don't want to spend your time thinking "am I doing something wrong or is the game glitching out?". You want to spend your time with a stable game, at least if something doesn't work as you expect, you know you should fix it, and not Klei.

 

Second, those are not facts, just your opinion. I have mine, and it's opposite, based on:

Heat: you have hatches. Enough said.

Slimelung: even a newbie would have a hard time making a colony fail because of slimelung.  All you have to do it notice is a thing called polluted oxygen and a building called deodorizer, and do 2+2. Once you're removing pollution from your base, which is a perfectly natural thing to do even w/o knowing about germs, what is slimelung? A minor inconvenience? Definitely not a colony killer.

CVS: you've got plenty of super cold material on top of the map, easily accessible. All you need is bins around the CSV. If you know about shiftplates, you can build dirt / ice ones. You can go on for many cycles w/o a proper tamer. 

And you have dreckos, sweetles. Only oil is missing, but that's not exactly newbie material. But then again, if you're a newbie, you shouldn't be touching the DLC yet.

 

Also, you think Rime is easy. Newbies don't. They pump subzero pwater into a sieve and wonder why the output pipe breaks. It doesn't help that 50% of the written text about ONI on the Internet reports that the sieve has an output fixed at 40C.

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, TheMule said:

Also, you think Rime is easy. Newbies don't. They pump subzero pwater into a sieve and wonder why the output pipe breaks. It doesn't help that 50% of the written text about ONI on the Internet reports that the sieve has an output fixed at 40C.

Nothing in ONI is easy until you find out how to deal with it, ideally find your own solution for it. On the other hand, there is almost nothing random and you can depend on your solutions continuing to work. Unless you designed them close to a "trip point", that is. Hence you can take your components and templates and ideas and combine and scale them up and in most cases the result works! Well, after some optimization and debugging that is  

Hence the idea is to slowly build up your collection of tools and templates and eventually you get to the first colony that survives. According to whatever definition you have for that. I usually go for "permanent survival", but I do in no way look down on people that take shorter terms. It is just a different way to play and equally legitimate and valuable. And the fascinating thing is that even after having played a really long time, I still find new things I have not done before every time I start a new colony.