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Tungsten and Niobium volcano output is a bit too hot


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Tungsten melts at a really high temperature, so its volcano having very high temperature output makes sense. But the temperature outputis a bit too high. There are only 2 elements besides neutronium that I can see could still stay solid past 3700C and that's Fullerene and Refined Carbon, one of which isn't i the game yet, let alone be renewable and neither can be used to make any type of tiles. However unlikely a scenario of molten tungsten or niobium taking over a planetoid to a point of almost no return might be, it is still possible and really shouldn't be. Even Insulation couldn't withstand this sort of temperature if it were to melt. If the volcanoes were simply outputting at 3500C we would be golden here, making Insulation most desirable to tame them as it would have no chance of being melted with a melting point of 3621C.

Even more concerning is the fact that Niobium volcano is surrounded by tons of magma to begin with. Niobium volcano needs to output at least at around 2500C for niobium to be liquid yet magma boils at 2356C meaning if the the volcano is let loose, even landing on the planetoid later in any way would become impossible because of rock gas. If this planetoid got regular volcanoes added, this could make the rock gas cycle potentially perpetual. Not entirely sure this is in any way preventable because what is a lava asteroid without volcanoes?

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You really do not need material to withstand the output temperature. What you need is cooling though. You can use, for example, regular insulated tiles quite well, but you need to put a cooling loop in them to prevent them from heating up. I am too lazy now to find out what you need exactly, but I would expect having radiant pipes with water in there for cooling should fix the problem quite nicely and not consume much energy. Might even work with regular granite tiles.

This is not an ONI invention. Lots of high-temperature tech uses actively cooled materials. 

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14 hours ago, Kderosa said:

Of course the real problem presently is that there’s no real need for thermium or niobium in the game. In fact,if you start out on the terra planetoid, there’s no reason to go to the third planet (first rocket planet) either. 

Actually, you don't even need the bucket. You can just use your hands. In fact, the sand doesn't even to be played with.
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20 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

But the temperature outputis a bit too high

"Wait, you mean to tell me a gold amalgam aquatuner running on water is enough to instantly cool liquid tungsten to 17C AND cool my entire base at the same time? (And it even has perfect insulation with only mafic and igneous rock?)"

 

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I have no issues with the volcanoes being really hot. The point is these volcanoes are a bit too hot to have zero chance of breaking something like insulation, which melts at a lower temperature than volcano output. Just 200C lower output would prevent that from being possible. Niobium volcano, as I said before, could cause perpetual rock gas on that asteroid, which would make it impossible to land there as even in atmo suits, duplicants would be scalding and rovers, if not not, will probably overheat even if made from tungsten to prevent them from melting. I clarified this in my post, did people just read the title and start posting typical volcano tamers? That's not what the topic is about, I know how to tame a volcano.

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2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Actually, you don't even need the bucket. You can just use your hands. In fact, the sand doesn't even to be played with.

"Oxygen Not Included is a space-colony simulation game. "

Notice they call it a game and not a sandbox.  Which is not to say there isn't a sandbox aspect to it; it's just not the primary aspect.  The primary aspect is the game part.

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1 hour ago, ZombieDupe said:

I have no issues with the volcanoes being really hot. The point is these volcanoes are a bit too hot to have zero chance of breaking something like insulation, which melts at a lower temperature than volcano output. Just 200C lower output would prevent that from being possible. Niobium volcano, as I said before, could cause perpetual rock gas on that asteroid, which would make it impossible to land there as even in atmo suits, duplicants would be scalding and rovers, if not not, will probably overheat even if made from tungsten to prevent them from melting. I clarified this in my post, did people just read the title and start posting typical volcano tamers? That's not what the topic is about, I know how to tame a volcano.

I am pretty sure you have a world generated in an older patch. In any new games, all volcanoes are generated with solid tiles covering them to avoid that.

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23 hours ago, Kderosa said:

Of course the real problem presently is that there’s no real need for thermium or niobium in the game. In fact,if you start out on the terra planetoid, there’s no reason to go to the third planet (first rocket planet) either. 

But you can also argue that classic ONI has the same problem. In classic ONI there really is no need for thermium or other end game resources. It's up to each player how and what they want to progress into. As a matter of fact.. why do you need to be forced to have end game materials? Wouldn't that hinder end game progression which heavily rely on the creativity of each player?

6 hours ago, ZanthraSW said:

Niobium volcano, as I said before, could cause perpetual rock gas on that asteroid

That makes sense.. since the perfect spawn mechanism of ONI would most likely create rock gas. It's not impossible but it could create very bad scenarios that might make it improbable to actually start taming the volcano.

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6 minutes ago, misotoma said:

But you can also argue that classic ONI has the same problem. In classic ONI there really is no need for thermium or other end game resources. It's up to each player how and what they want to progress into. As a matter of fact.. why do you need to be forced to have end game materials? Wouldn't that hinder end game progression which heavily rely on the creativity of each player?

I actually have argued that wrt classic ONI.  I think the temporal tear and monument building goals were just tacked on because they wanted to release the game.  I also think they'll get around to doing a proper end game at the end of this EA DLC.

But, yes, I do think there should be an end game that requires that you 1. obtain the space materials, then 2. build something that requires those space materials, and then (preferably) 3. maintain some production chain while some end goal is accomplished.

As others have pointed out, there are some balance issues as well that need to be sorted out.  Viscogel should be available earlier when you're actually building the bulk of your air locks.  Insulation pipes require so much reed fiber and isoresin that in most cases it's easier to to run a ceramic pipe loop for your LH (and LOX). then wait for enough insulated pipes to be manufactured.  The research tree is too easy - little thought has to be put into what to research and when after the first 50 cycles.  There's no real use for most of the morale buildings since you don't need all that morale for anything.  There's no real reason to explore the outer planets since nothing is there you can't get from the inner planets.  Stuff like this.  ONI is a great game - it's just not finished yet.

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Just now, Kderosa said:

But, yes, I do think there should be an end game that requires that you 1. obtain the space materials, then 2. build something that requires those space materials, and then (preferably) 3. maintain some production chain while some end goal is accomplished.

as i play allot factorio had to say i personally not like if game have end, especially if there is automation and stuff

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15 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

as i play allot factorio had to say i personally not like if game have end, especially if there is automation and stuff

Factorio is a different kind of game.  It's not the end that's the issue; it's the lack of a goal commensurate with the availability of the late game materials and other game systems which have no real purpose.  No one is suggesting that there be an actual end, but a goal that uses everything you can get/build. For example, you need LH which requires super coolant to reach the outer planets.  You can get the precursor for super coolant from the inner planets. But once you have LH there's no reason to explore the outer planets much less harvest them since there's nothing there you can't get from the inner planets.  All you need to do is fuel one rocket to reach the temporal tear.  Which seems a bit anti-climactic given the infrastructure (and time it took to build it) required to get to that point.

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On 12/19/2020 at 5:58 PM, Kderosa said:

Of course the real problem presently is that there’s no real need for thermium or niobium in the game. In fact,if you start out on the terra planetoid, there’s no reason to go to the third planet (first rocket planet) either. 

had to say i'm agree with you, atm surviving change in first planet seems to have 100%, not even need go further . not even need build the energy stuff, plug slugs can to it for you by output 1600W energy

but im guessing this only a beginning easy mode for DLC they probably include new planets in future

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4 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

but im guessing this only a beginning easy mode for DLC they probably include new planets in future

This is the early game challenge.  By midgame you need to more power and that metal ore the plug slugs keep gobbling up which necessitates a switch over.  That's what I mean by a goal.

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:57 AM, ZanthraSW said:

I am pretty sure you have a world generated in an older patch. In any new games, all volcanoes are generated with solid tiles covering them to avoid that.

Not the point, the layout of the last asteroid at the moment, and probably as it will roughly stay, means that if the niobium volcano is dug up and the top layer of magma gotten rid of, the niobium from the volcano with the bottom layer can start to get boiled to rock gas, turning the entire area to gas into rock gas at 2500C or more that continues to boil until the area is empty of magma. If there are volcanoes in that area later that are uncovered, that can happen not just for a very long time, but indefinitely, meaning you can't land there at all. May be sending rovers made of wolframite could stop that from happening, but there is the potential of them melting too if the niobium output temperature overwhelms the magma. Possible scenarios like that are why both the niobium and tungsten volcano output temperatures need to be cooler, especially the niobium one. If wolframite rovers melt, you can say goodbye to taming niobium volcano for good on that run.

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:21 AM, ZombieDupe said:

I have no issues with the volcanoes being really hot. The point is these volcanoes are a bit too hot to have zero chance of breaking something like insulation, which melts at a lower temperature than volcano output. Just 200C lower output would prevent that from being possible. Niobium volcano, as I said before, could cause perpetual rock gas on that asteroid, which would make it impossible to land there as even in atmo suits, duplicants would be scalding and rovers, if not not, will probably overheat even if made from tungsten to prevent them from melting. I clarified this in my post, did people just read the title and start posting typical volcano tamers? That's not what the topic is about, I know how to tame a volcano.

You are asking for an "easy mode", while there is a perfectly valid solution. Sure, the standard volcano tamers do not work, but one using cooled walls should work very nicely. I am absolutely sure these temperatures are intentionally above the melting points of what you could use. That serves to make you do a bit of research or a bit of thinking instead of just plunking down the standard template. And that is very, very ONI.

As to this making an asteroid unapproachable, I very much doubt that. You can still use the time you have before suits overheat and you can use that insulated tiles warm up very slowly. Will it be a big mess? Sure! But will it be a mess that can be contained and cleaned up? It will. Unless you managed to break a lot of other stuff as well. But that is ONI: Think of a strategy, and then find out whether you can make it work or not. And if not, that is on you and a reason to think harder and try again. It is entirely possible to make a colony unrecoverable in the base game without even trying very hard. 

 

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On 12/31/2020 at 12:17 AM, Gurgel said:

You are asking for an "easy mode", while there is a perfectly valid solution. Sure, the standard volcano tamers do not work, but one using cooled walls should work very nicely. I am absolutely sure these temperatures are intentionally above the melting points of what you could use. That serves to make you do a bit of research or a bit of thinking instead of just plunking down the standard template. And that is very, very ONI.

As to this making an asteroid unapproachable, I very much doubt that. You can still use the time you have before suits overheat and you can use that insulated tiles warm up very slowly. Will it be a big mess? Sure! But will it be a mess that can be contained and cleaned up? It will. Unless you managed to break a lot of other stuff as well. But that is ONI: Think of a strategy, and then find out whether you can make it work or not. And if not, that is on you and a reason to think harder and try again. It is entirely possible to make a colony unrecoverable in the base game without even trying very hard. 

 

All I can say you are a masochist who doesn't understand game design. I explained my points clearly, you denied them thinking this is fine. It is not. The fact you can get to a point where there is no solution yet still play the game is not ok, it is never ok, ever.

The solution here is to have niobium volcano and tungsten volcano output at least like 100C below Insulation's melting point. This means rock gas can still become a problem, but what isn't going to be able to occur however is Insulation tiles melting, destroying all hope of repair. If niobium volcano output temperature is even lower, it could be repaired by rovers made of wolframite. Can't say the same for the asteroid filled with tungsten volcanos, that may need some other solution as even then landing on the asteroid would become impossible until all gas goes out, but at least there are probably not going to be any geysers beyond tungsten volcanoes creating a situation of  insulation-melting gas (then again we don't know for sure). But for the asteroid with niobium volcano, I am pretty sure we will see regular volcanoes added, meaning the rock gas will become perpetual that could very well melt insulation and wolframite rovers.

I am aware that insulation is the toughest material to heat up/cool down and it would take thousands of cycles for it to actually melt and everything go loose. That still wouldn't justify the volcanoes being hotter than the material's melting point when they can be couple hundred deg lower and still have their output in molten form. It's unnecessary potential hassle without a reliable fix for eternity. Even if we get some other material even better than it, but still, it's a late-game item we still can't get in the DLC and it is literally called "insulation", it's only fair.

Seems like someone is already enjoying obsidian-melting rock gas!

Also duplicants themselves will scald in suits when approaching inside temperatures of 1000C, so not sure what you mean when talking about overheating suits. Not entirely sure if this is dependant on pressure but the point still stands.

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25 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

The fact you can get to a point where there is no solution yet still play the game

So... Pretty much how every colony ends? The core gameplay learning loop of what not to do? 

 

Heat? Check. 

Lack of oxygen? Check. 

Lack of food? Check. 

 

But somehow this is different? 

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I cannot possibly comprehend what you are still rambling about. Most of these points have already been stated but you persist.

  • All volcanoes are covered and cannot act on their own. You must dig to free them. If you do not prepare properly, you pay the price. Every player learns this in their first game. Oops, you dug too early? Cover it with any high pressure liquid or gas. For example, the surrounding magma. It won't erupt.
  • Superheated gas can instantly melt insulated insulation due to the flaking mechanic. Don't use the wrong tools for the job. If you want a higher melting temperature, I've already shown you that refined carbon tiles can withstand those temperatures.
  • There are many ways to handle and process 3700C molten niobium using basic materials.
  • You don't ever need to deal with such temperatures to begin with. See my above demonstration.
  • Even if you somehow engineer the absolute worst case that all of the magma has boiled away, the vacuum will clear it for you and you will be left with just niobium up to the height of the volcano, neutronium, and perfectly insulated vacuum.
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15 minutes ago, nakomaru said:
  • Even if you somehow engineer the absolute worst case that all of the magma has boiled away, the vacuum will clear it for you and you will be left with just niobium, neutronium, and perfectly insulated vacuum.

This right here is my problem. It would take way too long for all the gas to go away to be reasonable, especially if you only have one tile leak above a decent enough construction and you having to abandon the asteroid because everything went up in rock gas. And if they add regular volcanoes to the 6th asteroid, which I am certain they will, I mean it's literally filled with magma, that will definitely create an infinite loop of uncontainable rock gas. Wolframite rovers covering the area with insulation tiles from dropped off insulation MIGHT allow you to fix things up, but given how high the niobium temperatures go, that isn't a guarantee even if you approach fixing things with extreme caution.

15 minutes ago, nakomaru said:
  • Superheated gas can instantly melt insulated insulation due to the flaking mechanic. Don't use the wrong tools for the job. If you want a higher melting temperature, I've already shown you that refined carbon tiles can withstand those temperatures.

Well that just makes this 1000 times worse! I am not aware of this mechanic however, do tell more!

As for refined carbon, that isn't an actual material to build tiles or insulated tiles out of. Even if you just resource-drop coal onto an asteroid gone up in flames, I don't see it being reasonable for a player being at any point necessitated to learn it themselves inside the game to use the mechanic of melting materials to create tiles. External guides are the reason steam turbine + aqua tuner cooling method is not a good solution if you just want to go in blind.

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You are imagining a circumstance that is very hard to occur and only if you fail in such a spectacular way as to be deliberate and over tens of thousands of cycles of waiting. On that scale the vacuum will have plenty of time to act.

And yet you demand that you deserve to conquer this map by only using stronger insulation tiles even in such a failure.

By the way, diamond tiles will also not melt. Put insulation on the other side of those and you have a perfect seal. Happy now?

24 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Well that just makes this 1000 times worse! I am not aware of this mechanic however, do tell more!

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