Tungsten and Niobium volcano output is a bit too hot

[TheMule]

6 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Nothing in ONI is easy until you find out how to deal with it, ideally find your own solution for it. On the other hand, there is almost nothing random and you can depend on your solutions continuing to work. Unless you designed them close to a "trip point", that is. Hence you can take your components and templates and ideas and combine and scale them up and in most cases the result works! Well, after some optimization and debugging that is  

Hence the idea is to slowly build up your collection of tools and templates and eventually you get to the first colony that survives. According to whatever definition you have for that. I usually go for "permanent survival", but I do in no way look down on people that take shorter terms. It is just a different way to play and equally legitimate and valuable. And the fascinating thing is that even after having played a really long time, I still find new things I have not done before every time I start a new colony. 

 

So true, that's why projecting our personal experiences to make general statements is always risky.

I've never found heat a problem, not even on Oasisse, since my first "project" (other than the basics) is usually stone hatches. Once you have food, morale, power fixed, next project is all dups in atmosuits. It goes w/o saying that once I've completed both, heat is a minor concern.

That is unless we're talking specific seeds on volcanea with magma channels that I choose for the extra threat they pose to the base, but that's a different kind of heat problem, of course.

That's why I contend statements like "heat is hard to deal with", w/o qualification. Yes early game heat may be hard to deal with given the way you choose to play the game. That's not something that applies to everybody tho.

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, TheMule said:

That's why I contend statements like "heat is hard to deal with", w/o qualification. Yes early game heat may be hard to deal with given the way you choose to play the game. That's not something that applies to everybody tho.

Very true. Every play-style comes with different challenges and I find that at least my play-style has changed a lot since I started ONI in 2018. I do not really like ranching (after I optimized Drekkos for eggs and meat, I lost interest), so heat is sort-of a challenge, but it is just one of many. I now also delay suits, sometimes past the 1000 cycle mark, and I usually stay at just 3 dupes now for a long, long time, recently also for > 1000 cycles. This is so far from the typical way people approach ONI that any claim to general "truths" from that style would be utterly ridiculous.

[Yunru]

My play style is most definitely "atmo-what?" which I've had to adapt for the DLC.

[ZanthraSW]

On 1/12/2021 at 3:30 AM, ZombieDupe said:

 

There absolutely is, because that's what good game design is about. Imagine if you played a game, and it's fun and all, but then when you are 80% through the game, you get stuck trying to get past a certain point for hours on end, you just cannot get past it. You will either quit the game or have to look it up. For a game to be good, this is a scenario that has to be avoided as much as possible.

I still stand by the idea that it should not be possible to fail access entirely to the asteroid. The chances of super-heated rock gas covering the entire asteroid for someone who does not follow guides would be huge, there is no question about it. But if that could be contained away using rovers made from wolframite or some other material that could not melt and insulation tiles (which would act as a requirement in such a scenario), there would be no problem.

The challenges posed by taming the niobium volcano are substantially reduced if it outputs at temperatures normal heat management materials won't melt at. For myself, challenges like this one are the reason I still play the game.

[TheMule]

19 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I do not really like ranching (after I optimized Drekkos for eggs and meat, I lost interest), so heat is sort-of a challenge, but it is just one of many. I now also delay suits, sometimes past the 1000 cycle mark, and I usually stay at just 3 dupes now for a long, long time, recently also for > 1000 cycles. This is so far from the typical way people approach ONI that any claim to general "truths" from that style would be utterly ridiculous

Well I always suggest to newbies the first thing they should learn (well after how to survive the first 100 cycles) is how to ranch stone hatches. It's really "easy mode" under disguise. It's a real game changer. And second, "everybody in a suit for most of the time". Another game changer. Not as straightforward to implement as stone hatches (mostly because Francis John never did a tutorial on it I guess), yet incredibly powerful. If that's combined with a fully renewable oxygen production (and all you need is a water source), that's "map solved", or well, at least 1000+ cycles of easy playing.

It makes total sense for an expert player to steer away from both those "easy modes".

[ZombieDupe]

On 1/16/2021 at 7:25 PM, ZanthraSW said:

The challenges posed by taming the niobium volcano are substantially reduced if it outputs at temperatures normal heat management materials won't melt at. For myself, challenges like this one are the reason I still play the game.

The only danger it removes is making the entire asteroid uninhabitable even for rovers forever. That is what I'm saying is a bad game design move and why the output should be lower than the melting point of the best materials. Problems like this are unreasonable and should never have the chance of happening, yet here we are.

On 1/17/2021 at 11:31 AM, TheMule said:

Well I always suggest to newbies the first thing they should learn (well after how to survive the first 100 cycles) is how to ranch stone hatches. It's really "easy mode" under disguise. It's a real game changer.

Funny how they can never seem to figure that one out on their own, eh?

[TheMule]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Funny how they can never seem to figure that one out on their own, eh?

At least I spend my time helping people.

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The only danger it removes is making the entire asteroid uninhabitable even for rovers forever. That is what I'm saying is a bad game design move and why the output should be lower than the melting point of the best materials. Problems like this are unreasonable and should never have the chance of happening, yet here we are.

Well, you claim this is the case and we already found your other claim to be wrong. I am pretty sure this one is wrong as well. 

[Yunru]

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Problems like this are unreasonable and should never have the chance of happening, yet here we are.

Yes, here we are. Where your claim that it will melt even the best insulation have been categorically proven wrong, to the point where even the first producable insulation is up to the task. And yet you conveniently ignore that to continue arguing in bad faith. 

[sakura_sk]

6 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The only danger it removes is making the entire asteroid uninhabitable even for rovers forever.

You realize that rovers are useless in the magma planet right? They can't build insulated -anything- or dig obsidian/abyssalite. So... your point?

If something goes wrong you just let everything melt and let the magma "cool" it down to around 1400 C in about.. I guess 1-5 cycles? I could test it but I'm building other thing at the moment...

[Yunru]

Indeed.

It will reach a point where the surrounding terrain absorbs enough heat that the geyser will cap itself.

The terrain itself will also cool any rock gas back into magma and maybe even rock.

 

[Yunru]

Further testing has led me to a potential problem, in that gas will interact with ceramic insulated tiles (as does liquid gold), but thankfully rock gas condenses below ceramic's melting point, so while you might need to repair your wall at first, it's still an easy matter to throw up a wall and have it act as a heat sink to cap the volcano for you.

 

EDIT: Fun fact: From my testing, Niobium cannot create rock gas out of magma before the magma cools it enough to cap the volcano.

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, Yunru said:

EDIT: Fun fact: From my testing, Niobium cannot create rock gas out of magma before the magma cools it enough to cap the volcano.

Interesting!

[Yunru]

Just now, Gurgel said:

Interesting!

Obviously this isn't all encompassing mind you, if you drop half a bottle of magma on a niobium volcano, it'll vaporise.

[Gurgel]

Just now, Yunru said:

Obviously this isn't all encompassing mind you, if you drop half a bottle of magma on a niobium volcano, it'll vaporise.

Sure, but overall I understand you can just flood the niobium volcano and then deal with the magma first. I have no time at the moment, but I plan to pump it all out into space with a door-pump

Of course that plan may fail horribly....

[user32167]

On 1/20/2021 at 3:33 AM, sakura_sk said:

You realize that rovers are useless in the magma planet right? They can't build insulated -anything- or dig obsidian/abyssalite. So... your point?

If something goes wrong you just let everything melt and let the magma "cool" it down to around 1400 C in about.. I guess 1-5 cycles? I could test it but I'm building other thing at the moment...

I am surprised the OP is still at it after all this time. At this point, people should just say "git gud" and move on. No use to argue for the sake of arguing.

[TheRealBamboo]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:14 AM, Kderosa said:

"Oxygen Not Included is a space-colony simulation game. "

Notice they call it a game and not a sandbox.  Which is not to say there isn't a sandbox aspect to it; it's just not the primary aspect.  The primary aspect is the game part.

You don't have to make a petroleum or sour gas boiler at any point, but thermium makes them much much easier. There are optional cool things in the game that make your base better, but doesn't stop you from reaching the temporal tear.

 

[Kderosa]

3 hours ago, TheRealBamboo said:

You don't have to make a petroleum or sour gas boiler at any point, but thermium makes them much much easier. There are optional cool things in the game that make your base better, but doesn't stop you from reaching the temporal tear.

Yes.  But therein lies the game's main flaw.  (game, not sandbox - the sandbox is whatever you want it to be.) The game peters out once you've explored the planets within the 0-50k bands and brought back enough fullerene to liquidize LH to send one rocket to the temporal tear. (there are even ways around this, but let's pretend they don't exist).  You don't need thermium for this or any other build required to get this point, as you point out. You don't need insulation to pipe over the LH for just one rocket (though insulation makes things much easier if you needed to fuel more than one rocket - but you don't).  And by now you've probably made all the liquid locks you need prior to making viscogel. Regardless, you can obtain fullerene, niobium, and isogel from the inner planets in ample quantities.  You'll need data disks to complete your research, but you can get enough of those in the inner planets as well and there is zero need to research any planet after that unless you are playing on a planet without wolframite/tungsten. You can even get Gassy Moos from the inner planets.  Did I miss anything?

It's a tight game for the first few hundred cycles while you prepare to conquer space.  And conquering space is a huge building project.  But then it devolves into a sandbox with lots of things to do but no real reason to do them other than the fact that you can.  And, the thing is the elements are mostly all there to finish the game and provide that reason.  But for now the end game consists of your dupes sweeping the floors and making builds you'll never need for a few hundred cycles as LH is being made in background.  And that is the opposite of the tight little game that preceded it.  

[Yunru]

I think that's just a problem with open world games in general (and ones like Minecraft especially). Once you've done everything, the open-worldness doesn't really mean much, since there's nothing new to do in it.

[Kderosa]

18 hours ago, Yunru said:

I think that's just a problem with open world games in general (and ones like Minecraft especially). Once you've done everything, the open-worldness doesn't really mean much, since there's nothing new to do in it.

I agree with this take.  My point though is that the "once you've done everything" stage comes earlier than it should and what the world provides.  After ~ 80 hours of game play you finally get access to all the cool end game materials and there's almost nothing to do with them. They have no game related use other than to make vanity builds which aren't needed. Then there are the mechanics that are provided yet not fully incorporated into the game or nerfed. Decor, recreation buildings, and health buildings can be mostly ignored other than a massage table and med bed if you are playing on the harder difficulties. You can stay in your cycle 100 stabilized base the entire game; you upgrade your base as a vanity project. Clearly, there is more game possible with what we've been provided and the DLC is starting to do just that.  But right now the end game is just a sandbox with remnants of an uncompleted game plainly visible (hundreds of unused databanks, 150k km worth of planets, some critters and variants (hello gassy moo and Radiant bug), barely used space materials, a morale system that goes to 80 but which only 20-25 is needed, and nerfed diseases). My point is that the game would be better if it were completed and you'd also get a cooler sandbox to play with should you choose.

[Hayate108]

4 hours ago, Kderosa said:

I agree with this take.  My point though is that the "once you've done everything" stage comes earlier than it should and what the world provides.  After ~ 80 hours of game play you finally get access to all the cool end game materials and there's almost nothing to do with them. They have no game related use other than to make vanity builds which aren't needed. Then there are the mechanics that are provided yet not fully incorporated into the game or nerfed. Decor, recreation buildings, and health buildings can be mostly ignored other than a massage table and med bed if you are playing on the harder difficulties. You can stay in your cycle 100 stabilized base the entire game; you upgrade your base as a vanity project. Clearly, there is more game possible with what we've been provided and the DLC is starting to do just that.  But right now the end game is just a sandbox with remnants of an uncompleted game plainly visible (hundreds of unused databanks, 150k km worth of planets, some critters and variants (hello gassy moo and Radiant bug), barely used space materials, a morale system that goes to 80 but which only 20-25 is needed, and nerfed diseases). My point is that the game would be better if it were completed and you'd also get a cooler sandbox to play with should you choose.

Somehow both stress and disease can be even worse with map setting

But I don't like to turn it on too

ONI has a little goal witch just like achievement

Before out of early access I play all planetoid with my laptop

And you are right 

it becomes boring when nothing new todo but keep struggle surviving

 

In the end ,over map 60%my laptop give up 

 

Rimworld has DLC make some royal new things

But it look just like modding

 

Space out is a little better for change gameplay entirely 

So I can keep waiting for the fun thing come out 

[MooChiChi]

A little apart from the actual topic, but also francis john has admitted to having lost some of the vigor for ONI. Since there is nothing really new to do. Well, it's his own fault that he has done everything..., eightfold

[Kderosa]

19 minutes ago, Hayate108 said:

So I can keep waiting for the fun thing come out 

It will.  They are focusing on the early and mid game since most players haven't reached the end game. It takes about 70-100 hours of gameplay to even reach the end game and a lot of practice to get good enough to reach that point. So there's lots of game there; it's just not quite done development yet.

[ZombieDupe]

Just the simple act of having the geysers a bit cooler would eliminate any and all margin of potential error that would result in some unaccounted-for mechanic or physics loop creating a worse-case scenario, but for some reason such a change is a big problem around here. I don't think I'll be able to explain my point any more than I have in a circle jerk like this at this point. Believe whatever, I don't care anymore.

On 1/19/2021 at 2:46 PM, TheMule said:

At least I spend my time helping people.

Meaning what?