Wigfrid mains and non mains, I want to know what you want from rework

[minespatch]

3 hours ago, xhyom said:

I'm wondering why a Wigfrid rework topic turned into a Wolfgang x Wigfrid comparison club

[pedregales]

@Mike23Ua

I understand you are a fan of Klei. But they are people too, therefore fallible. Not everything they make is gold and is fine to criticize the things they do if you feel that it does not live to your expectations, you are on your right as a consumer, Squirrel12 is exerting that right. The company on their other end is in their right to listen or ignore to any criticism they receive.

Personally, the last updates have been a bunch of missed opportunities:

Spoiler

• Wendy's re-work could have re-worked ghosts, but they stayed as useless as they were before.
• Walter, as fun as he is, is a mess, has too many perks and they are barely cohesive among themselves, and even contradict each other: fearless but is afraid of being hurt. That is why he feels like a "mod character".
• Sea-faring has been hit and miss.
• The recipe book (which I absolutely adore) has no reason to be craftable as you can't share your known recipes with other players. It could just have been fixed to a button similarly to how the map is, or how the recipe book was in The Gorge.

--------

In any case, and trying to stay on topic. What I expect from this re-work is that Wigfrid will get her battle cry, and more than likely will lose her natural armor and extra damage. As for craftables, I expect some kind of altars similar to the croccomander's banners in The Forge that would give her back her damage and armor, but they would work with teammates as well: she places them, she makes an offering, and she gets her benefits for a full day. Example: the "altar of Odin" would give her armor, the "altar of Thor" would give her damage, and so on. I don't think it will be exactly like that. But seeing how they have treated Wigfrid, the update will most likely be centered around that: nordic mythology and being a fighter.

[cropo]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

 

Honestly a lot of your argument seems to be invalidated by the fact that you're defending bad character design, equivalent to content that random people on a Steam workshop throw in a few hours of their time to release for free to a company that has been making a long line of games and gets paid for their work.

 

Mod characters get a lot of criticism because they're made with completely random , balls-to-the-wall abilities that have no cohesion or meaning other than the player(often very bad at the game) wanting to make the game easy.  One of the most popular mod characters on the Steam workshop is Musha, a character who has higher damage, can emit light, levels up, has 30 different special ''spells'',  has 4 different character states to be in, but hates spoiled food. 

 

Another one of the most highest voted characters on the Steam Workshop is Wharang, a character who is resistant to cold, takes less sanity drain at night, levels up when killing enemies, has a ''super form'' that she can switch in and out of, has 30 billion unique craftables, a special varient of Chester that she has by default and can be made to attack enemies, the ability to jump, but she takes slightly more sanity drain from monsters.

 

Steam character mods are all pretty much like this, a random amalgamation of random nifty abilities that make the game really silly. So yeah, I can understand people not wanting characters to feel like mod characters, Walter is exactly this. He is equipped with a special slingshot with infinite durability, an immortal chester that can has a special ''riding form'', no sanity drain from most conventional sources, the ability to make a portable tent, a random allergy to bees as if that's actually a disadvantage, and takes sanity damage on being hit. He has a bunch of completely random abilities all mashed into one character and there's no real synergy to any of them, to be fair he is a free character so I have no real issue with him myself, but I would NEVER try to tell someone they're wrong for calling him like he is.

 

I agree with the poster, I do NOT want Wigfrids rework to feel like something I could simply download in two seconds with the click of a button on the Steam Workshop from an official game developer, do you have any idea how many characters are on the Steam Workshop that do something like that in one way or another? Your argument trying to illicit pity that you play a cheaper, more watered down version of the game that was Frankensteined onto a console is also not a real argument in my opinion. No one is forcing you to play the game that way, should we start listening to people who play the Mobile version of Don't Starve when they tell us we're ''egotistical'' for wishing Hamlet had more content because they're stuck playing it on a phone? Ridiculous! ''Spoiled'' by mods? Listen to yourself man! You're acting like someone who goes to a game tournament, forcibly picks a low-tier character because they have something to prove, then complains when people who play high-tier characters beat them, and dismiss all their opinions on game balance because ''they pick higher tier characters''.

 

You're treating your side of the argument as if you have the moral right of it, defending Klei like you're in a relationship with the company, talking down on criticism because we're in the middle of a global pandemic, which is it? Is it bad content, but we should feel sorry for Klei because we're in a global pandemic? You're basically admitting so when you use this defense, ''Hey man yeah it's bad but like what are you gonna do? It's a pandemic man!''.

 

A lot of console players seem to act like this, this is EXACTLY the kind of stuff you would hear from people who played Skyrim back in the day, until they actually released mods for console and now suddenly the entire dialogue has changed as if they were appreciative of mods from the very start, before you start passive-aggressively acting as if everyone who plays the game on the platform it was designed for as if they're ''egotistical spoiled brats'' because you yourself are playing it on a console it was hastily grafted onto, you should give your OWN ego a nice little look over.

 

I hope Wigfrids refresh doesn't make her feel like a mod character.

[Squirrel12]

14 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

All I’m saying is it’s pretty disrespectful to proclaim that the content a company creates for you does not live up to your expectations because it feels like a mod. 

Mods are not official gameplay content, they aren’t even on Fallout 4 or Skyrim’s level of being player created but company approved DLC content, Mods are Unofficial content, that was not- and may never become part of the official product.

To say that you hope Wigfrids Refresh does not feel like a mod, is not only insulting to the developers, but it shows that you feel highly un-confident in their ability to provide us with high quality content.. but why?? Because you have been spoiled by Mods?

Mods which again- are player created content, that in my personal opinion makes (some not all) people have large ego’s in their modded work- thinking that the content THEY can provide is better then that of the actual DEVELOPERS themselves.

Who cares if Wigfrids rework feels like a mod? What WOULDN’T feel like a mod? But Mods are not official content, & to belittle official content because “Mods exist”

Is a direct Insult to Klei and the product they provide us with, I also refuse to listen to your thought of “its a pc game, designed for pc and not consoles..”

I will have you know that actually- Klei specifically hired a team to work exclusively on improving the console versions of the game, & I feel the irresistible urge to remind you that outside of Unofficial Player created mod content, and of course the obvious platform of choice technical limitations- 

We are ALL playing the same exact game.

Now with all that said- all I’m asking is that can you please not insult or criticize the OFFICIAL Content that Klei puts out in the middle of a global pandemic, because you have been completely spoiled by UNOFFICIAL Content provided by Mods?

(also you know there actually is a forum member block button right? Just press that and you never see what I post ever again.. if What I post really does somehow upset you that much.) <3 

 Was gonna respond to this, but honestly, @pedregales and @cropo nailed it.

[AlternateMew]

On the mod characters: I on agree on the feel. Though I want to specify badly designed mods, aka cheat mods trying to pass off as not cheat mods. Which, I'm sorry Walter, but yes he does feel like that. Too many boons with too inconsequential banes.

On the Wolf vs Wig, it's definitely relevant because those two fill a very similar role as of now, with one filling it objectively better. And if that doesn't change with the refresh, then it will always be a thing that one of them is just the Wes to the other, with the only reason to pick them being personal preference of the character's design over how they play. That will still be the case even if Wigfrid is refreshed to be better than Wolfgang at fighting, because all that does is swap which one is the Wes of the two.

Webber and Wendy have (or had) a similar but slightly lesser version of the same thing, as they both excelled at spider farming (plus bees for Wendy) and not too much else. But they differ just enough in other ways that sending them in different directions is pretty easy, and Wendy has gotten her rework.

So for the duo of Wig/Wolf, Wigfrid gets her chance to distinguish herself first, and it's relevant to discuss how she can do that.

While I personally love the idea of Wigfrid going full multi-role actress via being able to swap to Winnie, it looks like most Wigfrid mains aren't on board with that. Which is fine. The opinion of Wigfrid mains matter quite a bit more than Wigfrid sidekicks.Just please make her have something where an experienced Wigfrid player is just as valuable as an equally experienced Wolfgang player, and not just a weaker version of him with diet restrictions.

[Well-met]

Just now, AlternateMew said:

Which, I'm sorry Walter, but yes he does feel like that. Too many boons with too inconsequential banes.

I'm fairly certain many veterans consider his "sanity damage" a serious threat.

[Squirrel12]

3 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I'm fairly certain many veterans consider his "sanity damage" a serious threat.

Most veterans don't consider insanity a threat. 

16 minutes ago, AlternateMew said:

On the Wolf vs Wig, it's definitely relevant because those two fill a very similar role as of now, with one filling it objectively better. And if that doesn't change with the refresh, then it will always be a thing that one of them is just the Wes to the other, with the only reason to pick them being personal preference of the character's design over how they play. That will still be the case even if Wigfrid is refreshed to be better than Wolfgang at fighting, because all that does is swap which one is the Wes of the two.

Personally, I never minded the similarities. Wig was always more of a team player. You can make armor and weapons for other people, and also that fact that you only eat meat motivates players to hunt and bring meat for the base. 

In my personal opinion, Wig is much easier to handle than Wolf (and a great character for new players), but if you know how to manage him, the benefits of playing Wolf are clear (speaking as a Wig main).

21 minutes ago, AlternateMew said:

Webber and Wendy have (or had) a similar but slightly lesser version of the same thing, as they both excelled at spider farming (plus bees for Wendy) and not too much else. But they differ just enough in other ways that sending them in different directions is pretty easy, and Wendy has gotten her rework.

The great thing about Webber and Wendy is that they complement each other. Webber builds the spider farms quicker and Wendy is better at harvesting silk from them.

23 minutes ago, AlternateMew said:

While I personally love the idea of Wigfrid going full multi-role actress via being able to swap to Winnie, it looks like most Wigfrid mains aren't on board with that. Which is fine. The opinion of Wigfrid mains matter quite a bit more than Wigfrid sidekicks.Just please make her have something where an experienced Wigfrid player is just as valuable as an equally experienced Wolfgang player, and not just a weaker version of him with diet restrictions.

As a Wig main, I'm not crazy about that...It just reminds me too much of what happened to Woody. Woody is essentially that, except the "roles" are the "were-monsters" he transforms into.

[FreyaMaluk]

 

14 hours ago, xhyom said:

I'm wondering why a Wigfrid rework topic turned into a Wolfgang x Wigfrid comparison club

I tried

22 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Now, to finally close this argument, hopefully

[AlternateMew]

46 minutes ago, Squirrel12 said:

You can make armor and weapons for other people, and also that fact that you only kick puppies motivates players to hunt and bring dead puppies for the base. 

I never thought of it that way for the meat thing, but it's true. I main Webber while playing alongside a less experienced Wigfrid, and the first thing I do when we're both our mains is hand over the monster meat for emergency food while I go punch butterflies. Base location is often near pig king so that Wigfrid has an easy-to-kill, zero-setup regenerating meat source. Meanwhile I take any damaged helms and spears since I get into fights less often and less lethally. Compared to playing solo, where I rely less on base and often eat whatever I find because I can, not bothering to stock the fridge with anything but ice and seeds. It's even become a running joke due to one unfortunate (hilarious in retrospect) incident that when Wigfrid is starving, eat the bird (from the birdcage).

I realize that shouldn't happen to an experienced player, but not everyone is amazing at the game and that's okay. And she definitely impacts my gameplay to eat all the not meat so she won't starve.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Squirrel12 said:

Most veterans don't consider insanity a threat. 

 

sure. i love to have terrorbeaks on my butt in the middle of a raid boss fight. so ez

[Mike23Ua]

Wait so the majority of mods on the steam workshop that people download the MOST are a mishmash of different random abilities? BUT you guys complain that Klei see’s that the most download mods & think well- This is what our fans are into, let’s give them more content like this- And NOW your Angry because they give you content like what people most downloaded?! 

-Sigh- LoL alright, I Give up you guys make absolutely no sense, but if you strip the mods out your game, forget that that Unofficial content even exists, and play the “Gimped Version of The game” as ya’ll like to call it, (pretty sure the Term is Vanilla) 

Anyway if you play Vanilla Without mods, You would be Appreciative of Walter- Because He is NEW Game Content.. 

And I love how you completely dismissed my question of what content can Klei possibly provide to you, that does NOT feel like a Mod to You? I know You intentionally ignored this question, because you know the answer is Nothing, Nothing at All.

Okay so- Ya’ll want Wigfrid to get this Battle Scream, to have Forge Abilities, to have Altars to Odin and all this Yada Yada.... but what I am hearing is your wanting to take content that you already have access to with Mods, ViA Re-Forged Mod, or -Insert mod here- & apply that onto Wigfrid.

Dude you literally just made Wigfrid feel like a Mod character- The Difference?? The ONLY DIFFERENCE? It’s a mod that your completely biased to & perfectly happy with.

Now just tell me what YOU think they could do to Wigfrid that won’t feel like a Mod?

Good Luck..

 

Spoiler

Look Im not going to argue with any of you, if I feel any of your points are valid I’ll comment on them, & if I do not feel they are valid, I will Ignore them.. And until you quit calling my version of the game the watered down version of the game- when your calling it that because YOU have access to UNOFFICIAL Content, It Kinda invalidates everything you have to say doesn’t it?? 

 

[Hornete]

31 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Re-Forged

ReForged didn't make Wigfrids Abilities in Forge. Klei made Wigfrids Abilities in Forge.

Just wanted to get that out there.

[Squirrel12]

25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wait so the majority of mods on the steam workshop that people download the MOST are a mishmash of different random abilities? BUT you guys complain that Klei see’s that the most download mods & think well- This is what our fans are into, let’s give them more content like this- And NOW your Angry because they give you content like what people most downloaded?! 

  Reveal hidden contents

Look Im not going to argue with any of you, if I feel any of your points are valid I’ll comment on them, & if I do not feel they are valid, I will Ignore them.. And until you quit calling my version of the game the watered down version of the game- when your calling it that because YOU have access to UNOFFICIAL Content, It Kinda invalidates everything you have to say doesn’t it?? 

 

I'm not even a paragraph in and my brain is already melting trying to understand this. What are you even trying to say here?

Are you saying that Klei is looking at popular mods for influence? Nobody even said that and I really doubt that that's what they are doing.  

But let's entertain this thought...Mods are basically a form of fan fiction if you think about it. Fan fiction can be popular and enjoyed, but that doesn't mean that it's good and that it would fit in the canon. 

Here is an example. The last season of Game of Thrones and the last Star Wars films shared the common criticism that they "felt like like fan-fiction". What they are ACTUALLY saying is that they felt like they were written by amateur writers, instead of trained and experienced professionals. 

Now put that in the context of DST: When people say a character feels like a mod character, what we are actually saying...Is that that characters feels like a badly designed character that an amateur fan, who is not a professional game designer, would design on the steam workshops. 

Do you see the difference?

52 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

-Sigh- LoL alright, I Give up you guys make absolutely no sense, but if you strip the mods out your game, forget that that Unofficial content even exists, and play the “Gimped Version of The game” as ya’ll like to call it, (pretty sure the Term is Vanilla) 

Anyway if you play Vanilla Without mods, You would be Appreciative of Walter- Because He is NEW Game Content.. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Look Im not going to argue with any of you, if I feel any of your points are valid I’ll comment on them, & if I do not feel they are valid, I will Ignore them.. And until you quit calling my version of the game the watered down version of the game- when your calling it that because YOU have access to UNOFFICIAL Content, It Kinda invalidates everything you have to say doesn’t it?? 

 

I can't decipher whatever the hell you're trying to communicate here.  

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And I love how you completely dismissed my question of what content can Klei possibly provide to you, that does NOT feel like a Mod to You? I know You intentionally ignored this question, because you know the answer is Nothing, Nothing at All.

  Reveal hidden contents

Look Im not going to argue with any of you, if I feel any of your points are valid I’ll comment on them, & if I do not feel they are valid, I will Ignore them.. And until you quit calling my version of the game the watered down version of the game- when your calling it that because YOU have access to UNOFFICIAL Content, It Kinda invalidates everything you have to say doesn’t it?? 

 

Who are you even talking to? I'm pretty sure nobody ignored your question, it's just very hard to understand you sometimes and I think the answer is redundant. 

There's loads of new content Klei has made that have not felt like a mod. Walter could have easily not felt like a mod if they had stuck to the boy-scout concept and not overstuffed him with random perks...Multiple people have already explained this to you.

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 

sure. i love to have terrorbeaks on my butt in the middle of a raid boss fight. so ez

You have point. I don't know, I heard from somewhere that Extra Hardcore Pro Championship League DST Manliest Men Players purposely loose their sanity so they can farm Nightmare Fuel or something...I don't know, I heard it from Edgy Rick.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

39 minutes ago, Squirrel12 said:

You have point. I don't know, I heard from somewhere that Extra Hardcore Pro Championship League DST Manliest Men Players purposely loose their sanity so they can farm Nightmare Fuel or something...I don't know, I heard it from Edgy Rick

a veteran can deal with insanity like he can deal with hunger drain of wolfgang, freezen damage from willow, warlys, wurts and wigfrids diet, wormwoods health restriction, etc. That doesnt mean that these arent downsides

walters downside its a downside, having nightmares makes you work slowly (there is a point where you dont want more nightmere fuel), can make some bosses a danger (fw or df arent a joke with other mobs messing arround), stressful sounds (still being a problem like earthquakes shake if you dont disable them)

edgy rick has mental issues 

[cropo]

There are definitely times when you don't want shadow creatures on you for sure, Edgy Rick even admits this.  

 

So yeah, if you're so bad at the game  that you keep getting smacked around left and right, you're going to die(probably before you even really go insane) with Walter. Technically it's a disadvantage for sure, but a character like Wolfgang for example has a much bigger disadvantage that suits his ability and cannot be avoided by simply being able to kite mobs, and he doesn't come equipped with a ranged weapon and fast mount that can outrun many mobs that help new players. Walter certainly looks cool, and his personality is totally fitting for Don't Starve but I really think they shouldn't have designed him so schizophrenically. On the bright side he could be reworked in the future, Winona was pretty much the first one to get a rework and even though she still doesn't quite match up as a character they certainly did make her much better than she used to be since she kind of had the opposite problem that Walter had.

 

To put it simpler, Walters downside is fully reliant on him failing at the game, while other characters downsides are there regardless of their ability to play and must be worked around. If you're failing at the game, you're failing at the game anyway, but other characters(not all) have to contend with their downside alongside their ability to play. Walters lack of sanity auras also means that if the Walter knows how to just dodge they might not ever see a moment where they go insane, to the point they'd have to force themselves to go insane. The only real downside I can see with him is if he intends to fight the Bee Queen legitimately without building a bunnyman army or other strategies to fight her, and there's already a video of someone online killing her by simply kiting her with Woby and wearing her down with the slingshot. Even if a Wigfrid is god-tier at playing the game, her disadvantage still comes into effect and a large portion of beneficial dishses in the game are locked to her.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 hours ago, cropo said:

die(probably before you even really go insane) with Walter

Did you tried walter? He looses a lot of sanity per damage point, 1 mistake and you are insane (a lot of time before dying). Is not about being so bad at the game is about you cant dodge 100% hits always, we are not robots

Having a perk that punish mistakes but rewards playing perfectly is cool and fits his "mortality fearless" personality. Not all the downsides have to be active all the gameplay time imo

I see hundred of times more easy managing hunger drain (and more with x2 damage that lets you kill mobs in few seconds) that having to be all the time focused on not getting hit

[cropo]

18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Did you tried walter? He looses a lot of sanity per damage point, 1 mistake and you are insane (a lot of time before dying). Is not about being so bad at the game is about you cant dodge 100% hits always, we are not robots

Having a perk that punish mistakes but rewards playing perfectly is cool and fits his "mortality fearless" personality. Not all the downsides have to be active all the gameplay time imo

I see hundred of times more easy managing hunger drain (and more with x2 damage that lets you kill mobs in few seconds) that having to be all the time focused on not getting hit

 

Sanity is really only a genuine threat if you are extremely occupied in a serious fight and can't afford to have shadow creatures aggro onto you, other than that Sanity is only an inconvenience. With the new buffs to leafy meat recipies, restoring sanity is an extremely trivial issue for a lot of the game(not that it wasn't already)

 

I'm sure there are rare, choice moments where you're going to be like ''OH crap, my character disadvantage is kicking in at this exact moment, and I would have been totally fine if I picked another character and now I'm dead!'' but I don't really consider that...to be enough of a disadvantage to really matter.

 

So

In a situation where Walter is fighting a serious boss like the Weaver, etc. You're already going to have a lot of sanity restoration handy, you'll be prepared to deal with his disadvantage.

In a normal mob situation, you're unlikely to take enough damage to go insane, and even if you do it's not that big of a deal...at times you might actually do it on purpose to go insane to farm some nightmare fuel. This is different if you're so bad at the game you can't even do basic kiting, but as I said before if you're this bad at kiting you're not going to survive long regardless of whether or not you're dealing with this downside.

 

At worst, for a normal player that has decent knowledge of the game, his downside will be a slight annoyance if you just want to build some stuff without being harrassed by shadows every minute, and have to take a few extra minutes to pick some cactus or grab some honey and leafy meat.

 

This is also taking into consideration that he revolutionized ranged combat, can shoot while mounted on a creature with naturally higher speed than most characters in the game as well.

 

 

Walters ''downsides'' aren't truly downsides, they're minor inconveniences. They don't block him during any point of the game, and the moments it would seriously come into play are situations where you should be walking around with food that restores your sanity regardless. He is also easily able to combat his disadvantages because he happens to have a buffed tent that he specifically(not any of his team) takes less hunger drain from, a nice little portable heal over time at his disposal. 

 

His only true downside to me is that he has 20 less hp than a standard character HP value.  Overall he's got quite the nice amount of boons, for a very low price. I have no idea what I would do to ''fix'' him, because in my eyes he's just a glob blob of a bunch of random perks, and minor downsides that are basically countered by his perks, needing an entire comb over to fix.  This wouldn't be a problem if he didn't have, like, 20 perks to his character, and that's not to say that other characters, namely WX-78, have issues with their supposed downsides as well(there's a reason he's considered so broken). 

 

I suppose Freddofilms video about Walter is a really good description of his issues.  Aesthetically he's a perfect character, with great skins, and his personality is a lot more fitting for the game compared to other recent new characters, in practice he really does feel like a mod character.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, cropo said:

 

I get your point and is true that 90% of the time the insanity mechanic will not be a big thing but that can be applied to wormwoods too. Outside of few boss fights having to heal with items isnt a big deal but these kind of mechanics adding difficulty to the most difficult fights matter imo because a experience player will not have any problem with any character outside boss fights but adding this kind of situacional downsides can make some fights near impossible without grinding more than a wilson

 

Freddo let a lot of things without comment, idk if is because he forgets, because he didnt know or because if he said them he will be not right saying that walter has a bad character desing.

Also i dont thing his perk are random,  maybe arent so well implemented but, except for bee alergic, all have sense in his desing