Wigfrid mains and non mains, I want to know what you want from rework

[Mike23Ua]

There are honestly a lot of factors that go into why they choose to rework Wigfrid next, they could’ve been working on Wigfrids rework for quite some time and she’s the first one they had ready to go.

OR Other Characters May be getting totally insane broken OP cool as heck abilities that interact with content that’s not in the game yet, For example WX78 could quit eating all the gears, and instead have to find and charge robot parts that are exclusive to WX78 laying around the map- Just like Pipspook are now exclusive to Wendy.

(Charged parts like Hamlets Iron Hulk)

The above is an example of how the Meta can heavily change, with WX no longer being able to just hammer down and eat the gears from your fridge then go single handedly clear the ruins by themselves.

But.. Klei May have just wanted to rework Wigfrid next.

or With Wigfrid & Wendy being the most Played maybe they just wanted to get to them ASAP?

Also even though the post above says that ALL characters will get new abilities and Gameplay, you just know the forums are going to erupt into pure chaos if Challenge character Wes gets any easier to play as with his new found gameplay. 
Klei is probably just playing it safe for now.. but honestly who knows?

In the end though I wouldn’t worry about it too much if I were you, if a rework doesn’t go over well with the fanbase they regroup and look into how they can improve it.

And Having said that- 
I am extremely Excited to see how much Wes, Wilson and Wolfgang will change.... because None of them had any truly unique gameplay features- They are basically blank canvas’s at this point with their only differences being Hp/strength etc Stats & for Wilson- The Ability to grow a cool beard.

[SnowdropPax]

I've hardly ever played Wigfrid, but as someone who's obsessed with Vikings and Norse Mythology, I would kill for some more norse mythology, Doesn't have to be a lot, but just something. Like, rename the Battle Spear Valkyrie Spear, maybe some more norse themed craftables.

 

Also, I'm praying to Odin for some Norse themed Skin sets. 

[SinancoTheBest]

I wonder what her belonging chest is gonna be like. Will they make it a Ultimate Performer chest V.2.0 with a battle helmet, battle spear and a third new item skin or will they go a very different route?

 

[chirsg]

1 hour ago, SnowdropPax said:

Like, rename the Battle Spear Valkyrie Spear,

I know you're enthusiastic about norse mythology, but I have to say, renaming items is extremely underwhelming. I'd rather a new spear called the valkyrie spear. And even then, battle spear works fine. I want a thulecite mjolnir

[FreyaMaluk]

On 8/31/2020 at 8:54 AM, Toros said:

I always felt Wigfrid had a great design and that other survivors should be buffed or nerfed to her level.

In DST they have the same role, they’re combat oriented characters.  People compare them because they serve the same purpose to a group only one of them is much better at combat.

Wolfgang has higher effective health, much higher damage, and can manipulate his max health to get roughly 50% more healing (take damage at 300 max, heal at 200 max since your % max health is consistent when changing forms)

The way combat works in DST is you are almost always able to dodge every attack while fighting bosses.

You seem to be considering Wolfgang and Wigfrid like a dnd barbarian vs a dnd fighter without accounting for the dodge meta.

If this was a turn based rpg then this analysis would work.  But it isn’t.

Since it’s possible to dodge the vast majority of damage at even a moderate skill level, defensive stats have a lot less value in DST than offensive stats.  For Wigfrid and Wolfgang her defense really isn’t significantly better and his dps can be more than double.

Wigfrid’s advantage is having easier hunger and sanity management... but neither of these are very challenging for Wolfgang either.

I was very surprised that Wigfrid was the choice for reworking because she is fun, popular, and already has a great design.

Hopefully after both Wolfgang and Wigfrid are reworked they’ll have a dynamic more similar to Max and Woodie do, where they might share a role (gathering) but where Max wins at efficiency, Woodie brings a lot of utility.

I never said Wigfrid isn't combat oriented. I said she has a different style of combat in my opinion. Moreover, I'm not saying by any means Wigfrid is better than Wolfgang combat-wise: his DPS is much higher, he has higher speed at mighty form and a huge hp pool (pretty much in synch with the barbarian idea I was mentioning earlier since in a lot of cases Wolfgang doesn't even have to rely on armor but on speed/dodge)

The dodge mechanics are ofc a massive factor for combat in dst but this doesn't really erase the leaching quality Wig has to recover hp and sanity, neither her innate resistance to hits. Her meta is having her helmet on and in that case she can resist quite a lot of dmg and still gain more with pretty much every hit. This is the area where both differ and where Wigfrid excels. Specially for people with lag issues, Wig is always a solid choice.

With that said, I was also pretty surprised by the news of her rework cuz she is the last character that would come to mind but if she gets some sort of battle scream or some other team oriented perk that would be appreciated. 

[Squirrel12]

15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speak only for yourself- Console players do not and probably will not ever have access to Mods. And therefore... what felt like a mishmash of random mods for PC Players was in actuality exciting new gameplay content for people who no offense, but had not been spoiled by mods.

I HATE mods, not because I can’t use them.. but because of how ungrateful people are with the content that a company puts out because they’re spoiled to mods.

To rest my case Firmly- The new Gotham Knights Batman game that was just revealed the other night is already under a negative spotlight from fans- Because people had already created a MOD in Batman Arkham Knight that let them already freeroam as Batgirl, Robin, Nightwing, Red Hood, Catwoman, & Harley Quinn.

Im not trying to start an argument with anyone here I’m just trying to show that what feels like a modded character to people who actually have access to Mods, will feel like completely brand new totally unique fresh new content to people who DONT Have access to Mods... And we get excited pretty much by whatever tiny bit of content Klei wants to throw our way.

I myself am personally looking forward to the Wigfrid Refresh- and as long as she feels more like every other reworked character so far-

As in... having her own unique Craftable items, brand new belongings skin set, Maybe a unique Craftable structure (like Sisturn or Wurts Merm Huts) And most importantly of ALL her craftables now requiring her to quest around the constant and gather materials she normally would have never needed.

To put it simply- when you play as Willow you will now often have Beefalo hair, Beardling hair, Silk & Hound Teeth/ Sewing Kits & Bernie Dolls, and Sanity Manipulating items taking up spots in your limited inventory space.

When you play Wendy- Mourning Glory, Ectoherbology Potions, Flower Petals, Ashes & Abigails Flower.

When you play as Wurt- Kelp, DIY Kit items, Pet Fish.

Woodie- Itchy Idols &/or ingredients for creating itchy idols, Lucy Axe, Food to Ward of starvation after unwanted transformations.
 

Wigfrid obviously needs to fall in line with the rest of them... I am just not certain how Klei will do it.

If all other reworks now carry around 3-4 additional items they didn’t normally lug around with them taking up inventory space- Expect Wigfrid to do the same..

Expect them ALL to do the same.

I haven't commented in months and it's hilarious to me that when I finally decided to come back, the first reply I get is from you with your classic PC vs. console whining. 

I can't believe you're STILL doing this. 

As I've told you a thousand times in the past, I literally do not give a crap about console DST gamers. Don't Starve is designed for PC. There are plenty of console exclusives that you can play instead. I have zero sympathy for you. 

 

[Pine G]

3 hours ago, chirsg said:

thulecite mjolnir

Man, that sounds cool! Though I would argue that it wouldn't fit in a lot with her character, since Mjölnir is Thor's weapon. A similar idea of mine was giving her a Tyrfing, the sword of shieldmaiden Hervör that was cursed to slay somebody everytime it has been drawn. 

[BlueBaby701]

3 hours ago, Squirrel12 said:

I haven't commented in months and it's hilarious to me that when I finally decided to come back, the first reply I get is from you with your classic PC vs. console whining. 

I can't believe you're STILL doing this. 

As I've told you a thousand times in the past, I literally do not give a crap about console DST gamers. Don't Starve is designed for PC. There are plenty of console exclusives that you can play instead. I have zero sympathy for you. 

hes still considering a small hespart of the community in every situation, (or "whining"), I don't think he cares about your PC Master Race Whining

I don't want to argue, BUT

Given how he's still considering a small part of the community which the game is not even generally built for (or Whining, as you call it) I don't think he cares about your PC Master Race Spiel

And while I will not deny that the best PCs are definitely better than the best Consoles, most people just have a laptop that barley runs better then a switch

Though, I expect you to take this with a salt shakers amount of salt, just as you did to @Mike23Ua's points

 

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Squirrel12 said:

I haven't commented in months and it's hilarious to me that when I finally decided to come back, the first reply I get is from you with your classic PC vs. console whining. 

I can't believe you're STILL doing this. 

As I've told you a thousand times in the past, I literally do not give a crap about console DST gamers. Don't Starve is designed for PC. There are plenty of console exclusives that you can play instead. I have zero sympathy for you. 

 

Maybe if you didn’t dismiss the official content that Klei provides in the middle of a global pandemic.. of all things, as feeling like a mishmash of mods thrown together, Then perhaps I wouldn’t feel this way?

Honestly Idc you have Access to Mods. 

What I care about is how the existence of mods has made “some” players become spoiled & extremely ungrateful of Whatever official game content that they do provide.

[AlternateMew]

On the mods thing... Look, I view console as inferior for DST both because of clunky non-mouse and keyboard controls AND lack of mod access, but saying something in the base game is bad because it's already done with a mod just doesn't sit right.

I can use a mod to get Webber's Shamlet Mask in DST. I don't want to. I want it to be in the base game. Arguing that something shouldn't be added because a mod already adds it is basically arguing against anything new being added at all. Mods are great, but they should be seen as potential inspiration for official content. Not discouraging it because "mod already does that lulz"

But I digress. I hold my opinion of "Give her something worthwhile and non combat that Wolfgang can't do". Because I like Wigfrid better and I'm tired of seeing people say she's inferior to Wolfgang. Then give Wolfgang a worthwhile non-combat thing Wigfrid can't do better, to end that annoying comparison once and for all.

[Toros]

6 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I never said Wigfrid isn't combat oriented. I said she has a different style of combat in my opinion. Moreover, I'm not saying by any means Wigfrid is better than Wolfgang combat-wise: his DPS is much higher, he has higher speed at mighty form and a huge hp pool (pretty much in synch with the barbarian idea I was mentioning earlier since in a lot of cases Wolfgang doesn't even have to rely on armor but on speed/dodge)

The dodge mechanics are ofc a massive factor for combat in dst but this doesn't really erase the leaching quality Wig has to recover hp and sanity, neither her innate resistance to hits. Her meta is having her helmet on and in that case she can resist quite a lot of dmg and still gain more with pretty much every hit. This is the area where both differ and where Wigfrid excels. Specially for people with lag issues, Wig is always a solid choice.

With that said, I was also pretty surprised by the news of her rework cuz she is the last character that would come to mind but if she gets some sort of battle scream or some other team oriented perk that would be appreciated. 

By a different style of combat I assume you mean tanking, where Wigfrid can take advantage of her damage resist and life leech, as Wolfgang obviously is designed to be more kite focused.  This made me curious and I ran some combat tests vs deerclops and treeguard to see how they actually fared head to head.

I gave them each a hambat for damage and didn't feed Wolfgang during any of the fights, and I set his hunger to maximum via console command afterwards to see approximately how much damage he took (this will overestimate due to rounding errors).

Results:

Deerclops tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: ~78
sanity lost: 30

hp missing in normal form: ~52

Wigfrid
hp lost 84
sanity lost: all (shadows can interfere with the battle)

Treeguard tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: 40
sanity lost: 5

hp missing in normal form: 27

Wigfrid
hp lost: 27
sanity lost: 0

What we can see from these results is that when it comes to tanking Wolfgang does a lot better against Deerclops and is pretty comparable tanking a treeguard.  While I agree that Wigfrid is good for a player struggling against lag, this data suggests that Wolfgang might be better or at least comparable assuming the player is reasonably experienced at the survival aspects of the game.  For new players Wigfrid is a very strong choice.

Personally, I found these results disappointing and was hoping for Wigfrid to come out ahead.  We do know that for tanking weak mobs like spiders Wigfrid's life leech makes a larger difference in damage taken, but evaluating that becomes difficult when wolfgang can 1-shot spiders and fire/ice hounds.

Analysis is complicated but I'm not seeing any areas where Wigfrid clearly shines in combat in comparison, and she deserves to.

[FreyaMaluk]

42 minutes ago, Toros said:

By a different style of combat I assume you mean tanking, where Wigfrid can take advantage of her damage resist and life leech, as Wolfgang obviously is designed to be more kite focused.  This made me curious and I ran some combat tests vs deerclops and treeguard to see how they actually fared head to head.

I gave them each a hambat for damage and didn't feed Wolfgang during any of the fights, and I set his hunger to maximum via console command afterwards to see approximately how much damage he took (this will overestimate due to rounding errors).

Results:

Deerclops tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: ~78
sanity lost: 30

hp missing in normal form: ~52

Wigfrid
hp lost 84
sanity lost: all (shadows can interfere with the battle)

Treeguard tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: 40
sanity lost: 5

hp missing in normal form: 27

Wigfrid
hp lost: 27
sanity lost: 0

What we can see from these results is that when it comes to tanking Wolfgang does a lot better against Deerclops and is pretty comparable tanking a treeguard.  While I agree that Wigfrid is good for a player struggling against lag, this data suggests that Wolfgang might be better or at least comparable assuming the player is reasonably experienced at the survival aspects of the game.  For new players Wigfrid is a very strong choice.

Personally, I found these results disappointing and was hoping for Wigfrid to come out ahead.  We do know that for tanking weak mobs like spiders Wigfrid's life leech makes a larger difference in damage taken, but evaluating that becomes difficult when wolfgang can 1-shot spiders and fire/ice hounds.

Analysis is complicated but I'm not seeing any areas where Wigfrid clearly shines in combat in comparison, and she deserves to.

how is "a lot better" (84-78= 6) defined when paired with (40-27= 13) as "comparable"? The way I see it they performed comparably well with Deerclops and Wig did "a lot better" ,actually double as much, with Tree Guards.

Also that Wolfgang in normal form lost less that Wigfrid against Deerclops gives me a hint that this doesn't really represent accurately Wigfrid's dmg and leaching. (I think you had to factor the dmg dealt by Shadows into the equation to have more accurate data since they are another source of dmg caused to the player)

Now, to finally close this argument, hopefully, I mentioned RECOVERY of both hp and sanity which is pretty much after the fact and during battle if you get hit. I think this is where Wigfrid really shines. Taking the same spider's example, while Wolfgang might one shot them, Wilfrid rapidly gains sanity and health while smacking them. It might take a bit longer but she has a net gain on hp and sanity that Wolfgang simply doesn't have by doing the same task. In that respect is where I think she has a particular edge on general survivability, ergo why I mentioned the lag issues as a valid alternative cuz no matter what you are gonna get hit and it can be useful to able to recover by hitting things.

[tammyshe]

34 minutes ago, Toros said:

By a different style of combat I assume you mean tanking, where Wigfrid can take advantage of her damage resist and life leech, as Wolfgang obviously is designed to be more kite focused.  This made me curious and I ran some combat tests vs deerclops and treeguard to see how they actually fared head to head.

I gave them each a hambat for damage and didn't feed Wolfgang during any of the fights, and I set his hunger to maximum via console command afterwards to see approximately how much damage he took (this will overestimate due to rounding errors).

Results:

Deerclops tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: ~78
sanity lost: 30

hp missing in normal form: ~52

Wigfrid
hp lost 84
sanity lost: all (shadows can interfere with the battle)

Treeguard tank test

Wolfgang
hp lost: 40
sanity lost: 5

hp missing in normal form: 27

Wigfrid
hp lost: 27
sanity lost: 0

What we can see from these results is that when it comes to tanking Wolfgang does a lot better against Deerclops and is pretty comparable tanking a treeguard.  While I agree that Wigfrid is good for a player struggling against lag, this data suggests that Wolfgang might be better or at least comparable assuming the player is reasonably experienced at the survival aspects of the game.  For new players Wigfrid is a very strong choice.

Personally, I found these results disappointing and was hoping for Wigfrid to come out ahead.  We do know that for tanking weak mobs like spiders Wigfrid's life leech makes a larger difference in damage taken, but evaluating that becomes difficult when wolfgang can 1-shot spiders and fire/ice hounds.

Analysis is complicated but I'm not seeing any areas where Wigfrid clearly shines in combat in comparison, and she deserves to.

Sorry to barge in, but I don't think those numbers are that correct...If you want to compare them you have to consider both have different fightstyles and ways to approach bosses, Wigfrid fares better in most fights just tanking the damage instead of kiting.

If you fight deerclops as Wig using battle helms and a fresh hambat (no kiting, just spamming control f) you'll loose around 50 hp and be insane, yet the nigthmare creatures shouldn't spawn until after you are done with the fight. 

I'm a Wig main and I really don't get all the Wigfrid/Wolfgang comparisons, I understand that they both excel at combat but they deal with different pros and cons that make their playstyles and fightstyles uniques. Both are an insane pair when they fight together. 

At the end, I don't think it really matter which character is better for x situation, it will all depend on the player and how they take advantage of that character's perks and cons, and what they want to prioritize in certain boss situations (fast fight, fewer resources, fun strat, etc) 

[Toros]

40 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

how is "a lot better" (84-78= 6) defined when paired with (40-27= 13) as "comparable"? The way I see it they performed comparably well with Deerclops and Wig did "a lot better" ,actually double as much, with Tree Guards.

Also that Wolfgang in normal form lost less that Wigfrid against Deerclops gives me a hint that this doesn't really represent accurately Wigfrid's dmg and leaching. (I think you had to factor the dmg dealt by Shadows into the equation to have more accurate data since they are another source of dmg caused to the player)

Now, to finally close this argument, hopefully, I mentioned RECOVERY of both hp and sanity which is pretty much after the fact and during battle if you get hit. I think this is where Wigfrid really shines. Taking the same spider's example, while Wolfgang might one shot them, Wilfrid rapidly gains sanity and health while smacking them. It might take a bit longer but she has a net gain on hp and sanity that Wolfgang simply doesn't have by doing the same task. In that respect is where I think she has a particular edge on general survivability, ergo why I mentioned the lag issues as a valid alternative cuz no matter what you are gonna get hit and it can be useful to able to recover by hitting things.

Because Wolfgang fights in mighty form and heals in normal form.  Wolfgang took 78 damage in mighty form, but in normal form only ends up missing 52 hp.  In addition, way less sanity loss than she experiences since restoring sanity is generally more difficult than restoring health in most contexts.

Shadows started to interfere with Wig's tanking runs, but I used the numbers from runs where they spawned far enough away to not cause any damage.

It is irrelevant that Wigfrid is better at the survival aspect of the game when we are strictly comparing the combat efficacy of both characters.  Wigfrid is overall more resource efficient but also less effective in combat regardless of the strategy.  It's not about them having different playstyles if Wolfgang is better at all of them by different amounts.

22 minutes ago, tammyshe said:

Sorry to barge in, but I don't think those numbers are that correct...If you want to compare them you have to consider both have different fightstyles and ways to approach bosses, Wigfrid fares better in most fights just tanking the damage instead of kiting.

If you fight deerclops as Wig using battle helms and a fresh hambat (no kiting, just spamming control f) you'll loose around 50 hp and be insane, yet the nigthmare creatures shouldn't spawn until after you are done with the fight. 

I'm a Wig main and I really don't get all the Wigfrid/Wolfgang comparisons, I understand that they both excel at combat but they deal with different pros and cons that make their playstyles and fightstyles uniques. Both are an insane pair when they fight together. 

If you don't think those numbers are correct, run your own tests.  Otherwise it's my data vs your hypotheticals.  It was a test of tanking vs tanking because if they were kiting Wolfgang would outperform Wigfrid by an even larger margin.  I had a fresh hambat and held force attack, which exactly what you suggested.

In none of my tests did Wigfrid only lose 50 hp fighting deerclops.

Wigfrid and Wolfgang are compared because they don't have a unique fighting style.  Wigfrid's perks lend themselves more to tanking and Wolfgang's more to kiting, but in reality tanking is usually a less efficient strategy and Wolfgang outperforms against anything but spiders.

If we're talking about a team context you wouldn't take Wigfrid + Wolfgang because Wolfgang + Warly is all sorts of busted.

38 minutes ago, tammyshe said:

At the end, I don't think it really matter which character is better for x situation, it will all depend on the player and how they take advantage of that character's perks and cons, and what they want to prioritize in certain boss situations (fast fight, fewer resources, fun strat, etc) 

It does matter which character is better for x situation, but the problem isn't with Wigfrid who as I've said has fantastic design.  Wolfgang needs to be brought down to her level and something changed about him or both of them.  If that happens, then they actually will have different playstyles.

Wigfrid is a great character and I hope her (and Wolfgang's) rework makes them more competitive in combat and add flavor and utilty.  Right now they aren't competitive when it comes to combat performance.

The reason I'm being so insistent with this point is there is a widely spread false belief that they are balanced compared to each other right now, which isn't supported by the current data, and this imbalance gets worse when we consider synergies with Warly.  Klei reads the forums and now more than ever it is important to be providing factually supported feedback.

To give a specific example of Klei taking bad player feedback to heart, when Warly was first introduced in SW the forums came to the false consensus that Warly was OP.  This led to Klei nerfing him which led to Warly being one of the weakest characters that excelled at nothing until his rework for DST.

[SnowdropPax]

11 hours ago, chirsg said:

I know you're enthusiastic about norse mythology, but I have to say, renaming items is extremely underwhelming. I'd rather a new spear called the valkyrie spear. And even then, battle spear works fine. I want a thulecite mjolnir

Fair enough, It was just a suggestion. You can't really go to deep into the myths, because as much as i'd like to, it gets really confusing for people who don't know anything about them, so it's better to just stick to surface level information. 

All in favor of 2 spears, though. As far as I'm concerned, Wigfrid should have a whole tab of different Norse related armors and weapons she can make

[tammyshe]

2 hours ago, Toros said:

Because Wolfgang fights in mighty form and heals in normal form.  Wolfgang took 78 damage in mighty form, but in normal form only ends up missing 52 hp.  In addition, way less sanity loss than she experiences since restoring sanity is generally more difficult than restoring health in most contexts.

Shadows started to interfere with Wig's tanking runs, but I used the numbers from runs where they spawned far enough away to not cause any damage.

It is irrelevant that Wigfrid is better at the survival aspect of the game when we are strictly comparing the combat efficacy of both characters.  Wigfrid is overall more resource efficient but also less effective in combat regardless of the strategy.  It's not about them having different playstyles if Wolfgang is better at all of them by different amounts.

If you don't think those numbers are correct, run your own tests.  Otherwise it's my data vs your hypotheticals.  It was a test of tanking vs tanking because if they were kiting Wolfgang would outperform Wigfrid by an even larger margin.  I had a fresh hambat and held force attack, which exactly what you suggested.

In none of my tests did Wigfrid only lose 50 hp fighting deerclops.

Wigfrid and Wolfgang are compared because they don't have a unique fighting style.  Wigfrid's perks lend themselves more to tanking and Wolfgang's more to kiting, but in reality tanking is usually a less efficient strategy and Wolfgang outperforms against anything but spiders.

If we're talking about a team context you wouldn't take Wigfrid + Wolfgang because Wolfgang + Warly is all sorts of busted.

It does matter which character is better for x situation, but the problem isn't with Wigfrid who as I've said has fantastic design.  Wolfgang needs to be brought down to her level and something changed about him or both of them.  If that happens, then they actually will have different playstyles.

Wigfrid is a great character and I hope her (and Wolfgang's) rework makes them more competitive in combat and add flavor and utilty.  Right now they aren't competitive when it comes to combat performance.

The reason I'm being so insistent with this point is there is a widely spread false belief that they are balanced compared to each other right now, which isn't supported by the current data, and this imbalance gets worse when we consider synergies with Warly.  Klei reads the forums and now more than ever it is important to be providing factually supported feedback.

To give a specific example of Klei taking bad player feedback to heart, when Warly was first introduced in SW the forums came to the false consensus that Warly was OP.  This led to Klei nerfing him which led to Warly being one of the weakest characters that excelled at nothing until his rework for DST.

Like I said, I am a Wig main, I have played her too many times and fought deerclops countless of times as her to know that. I just tested it again and got around 50 damage from the fight using only 2 battle helms, fresh hambat, and a hot thermal, and since I did it in a test world (meaning I had full sanity at the beginning of the fight) I didn't spawn any creatures during the fight. So it's not hypotheticals, and I am sure other Wig mains can confirm the same. 

They do have a unique fighting style because you will need different weapons/armour to fight as well as healing resources, they prepare differently. I'm not gonna deny Wolfgang and Warly make a powerful duo, but that does not mean other ones cannot be effective or fun. Furthermore, I don't think this game is a competition of what characters are better fighters, gatherers, tanks, support or whatever. Yes, it brings interesting discussions and debates but there is no ultimate answer to that. Like I previously said, it all comes down to who's the one playing x character and what strategies they use to make x situation (fighting, resource gathering, crafting, building, exploring, etc) better or faster for whatever they want to accomplish. 

[chirsg]

all her crafts are for fighting. Not everyone should have their "own" tab. Stick it in fight and call it a day imo.

[Mike23Ua]

I feel like In a game that’s advertised as a sandbox survival crafting game, that people getting upset about more crafting being added to the game is.. Odd to say the least.

That’d roughly be about the same as me buying a fishing game that has no fish.

So- Unlike some I actually enjoy the personalized crafting tabs, I also wish every character got their own unique to them STRUCTURE they can craft... which lets people joining your world see a nice built Sisturn or Mermshack and Know that a Wendy or a Wurt has been in the server when they’re not in the server anymore.

When you see a Winona Spotlight you just know that a Winona has been here and left her mark- and that is something every character including the ones who have already been reworked could use.

Woodie having a Pigtorch like Tiki Totem, that’s exclusive to him that maybe prevents his full moon transformation.

Not sure what to give Willow, but Mermshacks, and Sisturn make me want more of those... it allows a character to leave their distinctive mark on a world.

Wigfrid can maybe have a exclusive to her “Armory” where she can actually store and display her helms and weapons.

just an example of how unique character exclusive crafting tab items help to make a character feel unique, and giving them their own little landmark to place in worlds.

[chirsg]

not necessary with wigfrid. if in her rework, all that is added are new weapons and armor on the overworld, she does not need a new crafting tab. They're items used for fighting and it doesn't require a brand new tab.

woodie got magic for his totems and that's fine. 

 

[Toros]

2 hours ago, tammyshe said:

Like I said, I am a Wig main, I have played her too many times and fought deerclops countless of times as her to know that. I just tested it again and got around 50 damage from the fight using only 2 battle helms, fresh hambat, and a hot thermal, and since I did it in a test world (meaning I had full sanity at the beginning of the fight) I didn't spawn any creatures during the fight. So it's not hypotheticals, and I am sure other Wig mains can confirm the same.

I went back and retested both Wigfrid and Wolfgang and in none of the tests was she only taking 50 damage.  That said, I did find that simply holding force attack caused Deerclops to crowd Wigfrid and by backing up slightly the sanity drain dropped to pathetic numbers.  I suspect this has to do with the same weirdness as warrior spiders having short lunges.  The best run had Wigfrid losing 11 sanity and 62 health as Deerclops' last attack was cancelled but that timing isn't reliable. Those numbers are much better, though not 50 hp even under ideal conditions.  Still, that leaves them much closer than during my initial testing so I'm glad I went back and re-checked since under ideal conditions Wigfrid is actually not far behind Wolfgang in terms of health lost, and can lose hardly any sanity if you don't have deerclops come too close for his attack.

2 hours ago, tammyshe said:

They do have a unique fighting style because you will need different weapons/armour to fight as well as healing resources, they prepare differently.

I'd like to know more about your perspective on how Wigfrid and Wolfgang prepare differently.  In my experience, once they get access to a hambat or a dark sword there's no reason for Wigfrid and Wolfgang to not be using the same weapon.  Armor-wise Wig has her helmets which are a higher durability football helmet.  You might think Wolfgangs would use a belt of hunger but in my experience a magi for an extra hit while kiting is more common.

2 hours ago, tammyshe said:

Furthermore, I don't think this game is a competition of what characters are better fighters, gatherers, tanks, support or whatever. Yes, it brings interesting discussions and debates but there is no ultimate answer to that. Like I previously said, it all comes down to who's the one playing x character and what strategies they use to make x situation (fighting, resource gathering, crafting, building, exploring, etc) better or faster for whatever they want to accomplish. 

People often assume that when I say "Character x is mechanically stronger than character y" I am saying "Character x is better than character y" or "You should play character x over character y".  I am a huge supporter of people picking whichever character they enjoy playing most because they are all viable and able to complete all the content.  You will never see me shame someone for their choice or try to pressure them into not playing a particular character.

Where it matters though is in situations where characters are getting reworked.  It's important to know where they stand relative to each other.

[Squirrel12]

10 hours ago, A Random Furry said:

I don't want to argue, BUT

Given how he's still considering a small part of the community which the game is not even generally built for (or Whining, as you call it) I don't think he cares about your PC Master Race Spiel

And while I will not deny that the best PCs are definitely better than the best Consoles, most people just have a laptop that barley runs better then a switch

Though, I expect you to take this with a salt shakers amount of salt, just as you did to @Mike23Ua's points

 

This is not a PC Master Race Spiel. Some games are designed for PC, some games are designed for consoles. Play the game on the device it is intended for. 

Basically, every argument @Mike23Ua has can be summarised by saying "We shouldn't have nice things on PC, because those things don't port well to consoles". For example, in the past he said Wortox shouldn't be able to teleport on PC because, without a mouse, teleporting on consoles doesn't work well.

It's the same argument here: "Let's have badly designed characters that feel like modded character, because console gamers can't enjoy mods".

It's a tired argument, and I'm tired of hearing it.

[xhyom]

I'm wondering why a Wigfrid rework topic turned into a Wolfgang x Wigfrid comparison club

[Mike23Ua]

All I’m saying is it’s pretty disrespectful to proclaim that the content a company creates for you does not live up to your expectations because it feels like a mod. 

Mods are not official gameplay content, they aren’t even on Fallout 4 or Skyrim’s level of being player created but company approved DLC content, Mods are Unofficial content, that was not- and may never become part of the official product.

To say that you hope Wigfrids Refresh does not feel like a mod, is not only insulting to the developers, but it shows that you feel highly un-confident in their ability to provide us with high quality content.. but why?? Because you have been spoiled by Mods?

Mods which again- are player created content, that in my personal opinion makes (some not all) people have large ego’s in their modded work- thinking that the content THEY can provide is better then that of the actual DEVELOPERS themselves.

Who cares if Wigfrids rework feels like a mod? What WOULDN’T feel like a mod? But Mods are not official content, & to belittle official content because “Mods exist”

Is a direct Insult to Klei and the product they provide us with, I also refuse to listen to your thought of “its a pc game, designed for pc and not consoles..”

I will have you know that actually- Klei specifically hired a team to work exclusively on improving the console versions of the game, & I feel the irresistible urge to remind you that outside of Unofficial Player created mod content, and of course the obvious platform of choice technical limitations- 

We are ALL playing the same exact game.

Now with all that said- all I’m asking is that can you please not insult or criticize the OFFICIAL Content that Klei puts out in the middle of a global pandemic, because you have been completely spoiled by UNOFFICIAL Content provided by Mods?

(also you know there actually is a forum member block button right? Just press that and you never see what I post ever again.. if What I post really does somehow upset you that much.) <3 

[BlueBaby701]

2 hours ago, Squirrel12 said:

This is not a PC Master Race Spiel. Some games are designed for PC, some games are designed for consoles. Play the game on the device it is intended for. 

Basically, every argument @Mike23Ua has can be summarised by saying "We shouldn't have nice things on PC, because those things don't port well to consoles". For example, in the past he said Wortox shouldn't be able to teleport on PC because, without a mouse, teleporting on consoles doesn't work well.

It's the same argument here: "Let's have badly designed characters that feel like modded character, because console gamers can't enjoy mods".

It's a tired argument, and I'm tired of hearing it.

Well, yes, it is definitely designed for PC, it kinda sounds like you don't want us to have nice things

Also, while Walter is kinda a mish-mash of weird features, I think that, like @Mike23Ua, said, developers should be able to take inspiration from mods.

Also, he never said "There shouldn't be mods", he just was talking about how he didn't like how some players (aka you) were constantly whining about how some features were akin to certain mods, and that console DST shouldn't even exist

[BlueBaby701]

1 hour ago, xhyom said:

I'm wondering why a Wigfrid rework topic turned into a Wolfgang x Wigfrid comparison club

I'm wondering why it turned into a full-fledged argument