Troubled Waters and the future of DST

[X-lem]

I’ll never understand these “why can’t this game be more like shipwrecked/hamlet” or “I realize it’s still in beta, but why isn’t it more complete yet?” posts. We don’t even know how far along into the beta we are. The beta is “return of Them.” We don’t even know who “them” is. For all we know Klei is only 20% done the beta. 
 

Your statement “Klei should tie things up” is like someone reading a chapter of a book in a series and asking the author to tie things up. They’re not done yet. They might not even be close to being done. You have to lay a foundation for everything before you can even tell a story and then “tie things up.”

[camelCase]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:29 PM, X-lem said:

I’ll never understand these “why can’t this game be more like shipwrecked/hamlet” or “I realize it’s still in beta, but why isn’t it more complete yet?” posts. We don’t even know how far along into the beta we are. The beta is “return of Them.” We don’t even know who “them” is. For all we know Klei is only 20% done the beta. 
 

Your statement “Klei should tie things up” is like someone reading a chapter of a book in a series and asking the author to tie things up. They’re not done yet. They might not even be close to being done. You have to lay a foundation for everything before you can even tell a story and then “tie things up.”

If that's all you took from my post and want to simplify and group it with a bunch of others to invalid its arguments that's on you, but don't expect me to reply in kind.

We're 5 major revisions and over a year's development into Return of Them. To say we can't comment on content that isn't going to drastically change is myopic. To use your authoring metaphor, do you not think the author has a good idea of what the book is going to be before starting and doesn't have several revisions and input from peers during the process of writing said book? And it was a question, not a statement. I'm guessing your view is that I'm missing the grand plan here?

 

[sudoku]

3 minutes ago, camelCase said:

If that's all you took from my post and want to simplify and group it with a bunch of others to invalid its arguments that's on you, but don't expect me to reply in kind.

We're 5 major revisions and over a year's development into Return of Them. To say we can't comment on content that isn't going to drastically change is incredibly myopic. To use your authoring metaphor, do you not think the author has a good idea of what the book is going to be before starting and doesn't have several revisions and input from peers during the process of writing said book? And it was a question, not a statement. I'm guessing your view is that I'm missing the grand plan here?

 

To continue your metaphor though, is not the author the one who ultimately decides when something is ready or the overall pace at which they write. In the most extreme example Klei is George RR Martin. I understand the frustration of having to wait but I trust in Kleis vision enough that they will deliver a meaningful experience in the end. I'd hate for them to rush or stop early when sailing has so much potential. 

[camelCase]

2 minutes ago, sudoku said:

To continue your metaphor though, is not the author the one who ultimately decides when something is ready or the overall pace at which they write. In the most extreme example Klei is George RR Martin. I understand the frustration of having to wait but I trust in Kleis vision enough that they will deliver a meaningful experience in the end. I'd hate for them to rush or stop early when sailing has so much potential. 

Don't get me wrong. I have the utmost respect for Klei. I value their ethics and ability to put out great games (DST is by far my favorite since release). Even on here, Joe is a credit to the company. I wouldn't bother posting otherwise, and I'm sure the same thing could be said for you.

This time though, I'm worried. If Klei is George R. R. Martin responsible for a carefully crafted masterpiece that has spanned 7 years, several DLCs, timed events, and a hugely successful multiplayer expansion; I really hope we aren't seeing season 8 GoT here.

[ShadowDuelist]

I agree on the boats part, I thought the round boats was going to be the starting boat, the very basic raft that would eventually be up-gradable to something that looks more like an actual boat, or/and that is larger. But maybe that's where the development is going, just that its going slower than expected now due to COVID restrictions and we just don't know yet.

I think it's fine that they keep adding water content and water mobs, so long there is a grand objective we're still missing. Perhaps not only getting better resources, but having to defeat actual threats would make the water "the final frontier" worth preparing for,

Spoiler

EG: let's imagine there's a pirate pigs tribe, hiding on a separate island. These pigs would slowly  grow in numbers and from ingame year 2 or something like that, will start invading the main land in parties, attacking your base, burning, and stealing stuff. So you can either ignore water entirely and face "pirate waves" eventually (along hound waves), or go trade with them for a pacifist route, or go face them once and then before they become a real threat, or stall them by fighting them in naval wars.

Other things may include:

• Seasonal floods requiring you to sail to higher lands,
• Single events (sort of like the aporkalipse) that destroy or shatter the mainland into separate islands
• A different optional game mode where the main starting land is much smaller and short on resources, forcing the players to keep migrating to different resources on different islands
• Treacherous cave oceans
• Etc

Also Integration between the events surrounding the ancient gateway and the outside world/the ocean/moon island would make sense eventually, but for now since the ocean still looks pretty dead, and moon island doesn't really offer many things to do/revisit, it would seem that they are prioritizing to keep adding things in the water before (maybe?) jumping into major quests or events with some lore importance.

TL;DR: I hope they are basically setting the stage for what's going to be the main meaty parts of the game. I think of it like if the original don't starve was in development, and they just added trees, treeguards, and the mysterious pig king.
It doesn't seem like much if you only have that, but they are just small parts of what we now know it's a much a bigger thing. But at that point in development and judging just for having those things, it may look like its going to be  just a "chop trees and trade with PK" game.

[Mike23Ua]

Just keep in mind that THEM is the single biggest lore point in the franchise, it is and always has been.. Anyone who becomes prisoner of the Nightmare Throne is held captive there under Them’s Influence, and while these content updates may to YOU be going at a snails past leading nowhere- Somewhere over at Klei they have everything already put together in a private build and know where they want the game to go.. the thing is though- They have to know what will and what won’t completely break the game, like for example-

Maybe WE Want new types of Boats that look like actual boats, but adding that could potentially break a content update that WE the fans playing the game won’t see for another 5 updates from now.

And that’s exactly why things move at a snails pace (we can’t forget that Covid 19 also put a huge damper on the whole world..) but outside of Covid, Klei has to make sure that whatever they add now, doesn’t collide with whatever they have planned for later.

And while I am by far no game developer- I think you’ll understand that we can’t be like “Yo Add Walani” And expect her next week.. Using that as an example- Walani could’ve made fighting something like Malbatross or Crab King Trivial.

Im not saying she won’t EVER be added to the game, I’m just using that as an example of how we can’t realistically expect the things we ask for to be added to the game the next day. 
 

You want Klei to quote “Tie up Return of Them Content and Move on.” But what you don’t seem to understand is that THEM is the biggest driving point for why everyone is even trapped in this world to begin with... and with it being the “End all Be All” of what DS Is... how do we know if we’re only in Return of Them Update #5 of 20?

Only Klei knows how big a Return of Them actually is... 

But one thing I HAVE noticed is each update has added at least one new area to the game, one new core game mob, one new craftable item or weapon, One new food type or dish and one new craftable boat structure.

RoT Turn of Tides- Lunar Isles, Saladmander, Glass Cutter, Stone Fruit, Boats and all the basic boat structures.

RoT 2 Salty Dog- Salt Stacks, Cookie Cutters, Cookie Cutter Cap, Salt, Salt Box.

RoT 3 Hook Line & Inker- Deep Sea, Skittersquid, Deep Sea Fishing Rod, Surf n Turf, Tin Fishin Bin.

RoT 4 She Sells Sea Shells- Pearls Island, Wobster, Strident Trident, Wobster Dish, Pinchin Winch.

 

(this ones not out on Xbox so I can only guess on this but..)

RoT 5 Troubled Waters- Added Barnacle Shoals, Rock Shark, Leafy Meat dishes, Boat Lantern, Boat Lightning Rod.

New Area, new core game mob, new gameplay mechanics, new craftable items, new food dish and new boat structures with EVERY Update so far....

The TL:DR- don’t judge a book by its first 15 pages.. 

 

[Rinkusan]

2 hours ago, camelCase said:

I'd like to preface this topic by saying I absolutely think moving into the ocean was a valid move for DST. If I'm honest though, as much as I love Klei, I completely agree with most of the critics of the ocean content. I think it's unrewarding, unnecessary, and a huge missed opportunity for integrating more Shipwrecked content. The stone-fruit and glass cutters are the only things which work since they have use on the mainland but the Lunar island remains a temporary distraction at best, and devoid of content at worst. With each successive update to ocean content I'm less and less convinced they will eventually all come together to provide something more than the sum of its parts. Even the large wooden circle (aka boat) which I hoped was a temporary measure is being doubled down with mast upgrades showing that its here to stay.

I would've much preferred effort be put towards ancient gateway content which was teased over a year ago when it appears a massive u-turn was made towards lunar/ocean content. This was the perfect opportunity to integrate the Forge and the Gorge alongside "something else" into the base game. Even bringing Adventure mode into DST is the kind of relevant enriching content which the game needs. So much great work is being done in other areas and being complete ignored/forgotten about when it comes to the DST roadmap (I'm also looking at you Hamlet house interiors).

So my question is this: Do you think there is some grand plan I'm missing here? If not, should Klei tie up ocean content with more useful items and move on?

As much as people seem to love it, I'm personally not a fan of Shipwrecked's boat mechanics whatsoever. As many have already pointed out, they're essentially water shoes rather than more-realistic, hard-to-steer ocean vehicles, and going along with the "Together" in Don't Starve Together, Shipwrecked boats have zero teamwork mechanics unlike the pancakes we have right now. But just to add to this point, bringing Shipwrecked boats into DST would undermine the difficulty of finding the lunar island/crab king/crabby hermit island and horrendously devalue Woodie's goose form.

I'm not sure what other ancient gateway-related gameplay content you can really add outside another other-world minigame, the latter of which I recall people complaining about for being temporary content. If you're referring to lore content, however, I'm pretty confident that the ocean endgame will be relevant to the ancient gateway because pretty much all of the ocean content that we see is directly caused by the moon, and there is evidence in Hamlet that the moon and the ancient gateway have some connection. 

I'm not sure if there's a grand plan to improve the utility of all the ocean-content items, but I personally don't think there needs to be. 

[X-lem]

54 minutes ago, camelCase said:

If that's all you took from my post and want to simplify and group it with a bunch of others to invalid its arguments that's on you...

I was only addressing part of your post, not generalizing it.

55 minutes ago, camelCase said:

To say we can't comment on content that isn't going to drastically change is incredibly myopic.

Hummm, doesn't look like I said you couldn't comment on content at all.

59 minutes ago, camelCase said:

do you not think the author has a good idea of what the book is going to be before starting...

Of course. Are you assuming Klei doesn't?

Sure we're in the 5th part of the beta. So what? I think you're missing the big picture because we're all missing the big pictures. The beta isn't done yet, we don't know how much is left. You have no idea what's going to be added/changed. Klei adding mast upgrades proves nothing other than they'll likely keep the boat that's currently there. Does it prove they won't add more/different boats? No. You don't know, I don't know. Sure you and others can say "the ocean in it's current state is pointless." Sure, maybe it is, but they're not done. You said in your OP that you are becoming less convinced this will all come together with each release. Why? Development takes a long time. The ocean content is huge and will likely take them (in my estimation) at least another year to complete.

[Mike23Ua]

22 minutes ago, X-lem said:

You have no idea what's going to be added/changed. Klei adding mast upgrades proves nothing other than they'll likely keep the boat that's currently there. Does it prove they won't add more/different boats? No. You don't know, I don't know. 

Yeah I made a photo edit of how much current boats could change between NOW And the final (truly final..) Return of Them Update.. while my picture got TONS of confused reacts-

Heres what I’m thinking as an Adult Gamer over the age of 18, “Why would Klei take boats that actually LOOKED like Boats and then backtrack on that by turning the boats into large circular “Rafts” Basically.

As you can see by the Placement of my Lamp.. this Photo is NOW Outdated... but the point is- They could easily fit all the current structures the game has NOW for boats onto vessels that actually LOOK like Boats... They Did it in Shipwrecked... So Why couldn’t they in DST? 
 

I think where TONS of people get mixed up on this is that when We (or at least when I) Beg for the Shipwrecked Boats I NEVER want back the boring Water Shoe versions.. I simply want them to layer the amazing new mechanics introduced with Return of Them Boats, Over the Design of SW boats..

Too Small and no maneuverability unlike the cookie? Fine.. make them bigger and able to have players walk around on them.. but the Large Wooden Cookie thing we have NOW I will NEVER consider a Boat..

I Would be more likely to call that a Water Platform you can build a at sea base on before I’d call it ANYTHING else.

Theres even pros & cons to adding these into gameplay that tie with this-

they could give us smaller boat looking boats that can only place basic boating structures on- Anchor, wheel, mast, fishin bin, Boat Lamp, etc...

Meanwhile the LARGE Water Platform Boat Cookie would be the only structure large enough and stable enough to hold heavier things like Campfire, Fridge, Pinch Winch, Cookpot, etc.... 

So In my (Personal) point of view there’s plenty of room and reason to have BOTH types of boats, but like I said in my previous post “Yo Add Walani” or in this case “MORE BOAT TYPES!” May not be that simple.

 

[GetNerfedOn]

I'd certainly prefer Return of Them to give a more unique, thematically appropriate approach to new content. That in and of itself is more enriching content than just copypasting old content from other DLCs regardless of whether they fit the game's setting.

About boats, they've introduced an entire new array of gameplay (e.g. more complicated boat operation, prepared expeditions, boat construction dynamics, boat bases) alongside them rather than just being SW's water shoes. While they're less convenient and more difficult to use, to me they're still very much enriching content due to the aforementioned new layer of gameplay they add.

While overall the ocean is still incomplete and uninteresting to me I like that it managed to pull off the aesthetic of a deserted, stony ocean on a temperate setting.

[Moonatik]

3 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

 

Also Integration between the events surrounding the ancient gateway and the outside world/the ocean/moon island would make sense eventually, but for now since the ocean still looks pretty dead, and moon island doesn't really offer many things to do/revisit, it would seem that they are prioritizing to keep adding things in the water before (maybe?) jumping into major quests or events with some lore importance.

TL;DR: I hope they are basically setting the stage for what's going to be the main meaty parts of the game. I think of it like if the original don't starve was in development, and they just added trees, treeguards, and the mysterious pig king.
It doesn't seem like much if you only have that, but they are just small parts of what we now know it's a much a bigger thing. But at that point in development and judging just for having those things, it may look like its going to be  just a "chop trees and trade with PK" game.

I agree with that. (For boats... I like what we have, but we can have more and I bet on more upgrades to come). But it makes sense that the bigger parts will come after. I mean the atrium came without the fuelweaver, right ? Did someone complain about the empty arena at this period ?

She sells sea shells was a major update, just because it gives us an important tool, even if we don't know his role yet. And it's not difficult to say we'll have to do Pearl's quests, then beat the crab (Just like the ancient guardian, and the shadow pieces) in every game if we want to go forward.

Isn't it what we wanted ? A reason for sailing ? With danger as we're sailing ? Dangerous sharks, plants, biomes full of weird creatures, and probably more.

What ?

An idiot's whispering in my head, "let's wait for the finish line". Yes, that's all I could say. If we miss something, I'd say... the end of this large changes. Yes, that's what we all want. Stop, we're, you're not ready. The big secret plan, it's coming. I said stop. It will come. Patience is a vertue. Not for everyone. You're right. I'm wrong. Down is the new up. We're all done. The constant win, always. There's no end, fools. What's next ? After the end ? Yes, after the end. What's coming, after the end ? Should I ask Wilson, or Wes ?  

 

[Mike23Ua]

I’m legitimately confused now.. congratulations!
 

But thinking about Return of Them content didn’t Klei state in their very own words that these updates will be small and released over long periods of time and that the first few were only meant to lay down the foundation of what’s still to come?

I will be pretty disappointed with these updates if the only places we can sail to at the conclusion end up being that one Lunar Island & Pearls Hermit home.. I’m fully expecting a much bigger picture, We have a sailable sea now and can virtually sail into any Biome we want. (At least In Theory)

[Moonatik]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m legitimately confused now.. congratulations!
 

But thinking about Return of Them content didn’t Klei state in their very own words that these updates will be small and released over long periods of time and that the first few were only meant to lay down the foundation of what’s still to come?

I will be pretty disappointed with these updates if the only places we can sail to at the conclusion end up being that one Lunar Island & Pearls Hermit home.. I’m fully expecting a much bigger picture, We have a sailable sea now and can virtually sail into any Biome we want. (At least In Theory)

People have problems with "wip". Work in progress. They don't take it as what it is, and sometimes, even if they watch a 48 minutes video with "work in progress" on the top of the screen, + "work in progress" on the bottom right, + a narrator saying "all what you see is a work in progress, it can be changed or modified, dont forget it.", then all of this is not even enough. Sometimes, on some forums, it's a real nightmare. I'm not talking about DST. 

So you could be disapointed, at the end. But why would you be now as everything still grow ? As it's not finished ? You're not only have your answer in your question, but you see it too. RoT is still growing. 

[minespatch]

10 minutes ago, Moonatik said:

RoT is still growing. 

I prefer Klei's process of cultivation. They gradually let us through the process without being cheap about it.

[HeilerderWelten]

Adding Shipwrecked content would solve so many problems that I have with the DST ocean content. the SW bioms, the diffrent ships (and the SW boat mechanics for them), Tigershark, Quacken and Sealnado. All of that would animate me to play the ocean content.,

[minespatch]

4 minutes ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Tigershark

Sharkittens would be a bonus.

[HeilerderWelten]

11 hours ago, Well-met said:

hey don't forget the salt box. I love that thing.

It's probably safe to assume the Celestial Tribute will unlock new recipes or powers for the mainland. There's no other way.

Indeed, the saltbox is a great addition.

10 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

Wait, I'm confused... did you think the entire boating system was a placeholder?? Like, the boat kit and all the tons of structures and new mechanics related to it?

Atleast I thought, it is a boat for multiple people or a base platform on the ocean, but that we get eventually atleast one decent, fast 1 player boat, that is more responsive and doesn't have such a massive hitbox. I still hope we can get that.

12 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Sharkittens would be a bonus.

Those cute, little boys ^O^

[minespatch]

13 minutes ago, HeilerderWelten said:

Those cute, little boys ^O^

[HeilerderWelten]

5 minutes ago, minespatch said:

hahahaha they are so derpy and chunky.

[Rhovious Aran]

Islands, Islands. Just give us more islands, more trees, more bushes, more turf. In purple and pink please <3

[DaZoul]

54 minutes ago, Rhovious Aran said:

Islands, Islands. Just give us more islands, more trees, more bushes, more turf. In purple and pink please <3

Pink like the Sugarwood Memorial Park in the Gorge? Btw I just noticed that if you use the Architect Pack and build a sugarwood-themed place, you could also use the Salt Lamp skin for the Lantern to put down somewhere, as its colors are basically the same of the Park with the same pink and black (black like the fence of the Park)

[Rhovious Aran]

19 minutes ago, DaZoul said:

Pink like the Sugarwood Memorial Park in the Gorge? Btw I just noticed that if you use the Architect Pack and build a sugarwood-themed place, you could also use the Salt Lamp skin for the Lantern to put down somewhere, as its colors are basically the same of the Park with the same pink and black (black like the fence of the Park)

Yeah like the Sugar Park. Oh, I hope this is not a bad revelation for you. But isn't the salt lamp orange? :S

[minespatch]

I'd like a crabapple island...

[DaZoul]

27 minutes ago, Rhovious Aran said:

Yeah like the Sugar Park. Oh, I hope this is not a bad revelation for you. But isn't the salt lamp orange? :S

Well, when it's turned on. When off, I personally see a pink color

I mean, if you use it for decoration, you cant just refuel it all the time, so it being the wanted color when off is perfectly ideal

[Mike23Ua]

Big brain time guys think deep into Return of Them, How Do YOU picture this update branch ending?

For me I don’t see it ending anytime before mid-2021 and I’ll tell you why- Klei still has to refresh 

Wilson, Wes, Wigfrid, Maxwell, Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, WX78, and Webber.

That is a Whopping 8 Characters who still need to be refreshed. 

And that’s not even counting DLC Ports if they also choose to do those Walani, Wilbur, Woodlegs, Wilba, Wheeler, Wagstaff

if we CAN count those that’s 14 characters yet to be updated, if we can’t it’s still no less than 8.. 

If Return of Them is supposed to be the huge grand finale where we (hopefully rescue Charlie from Them and can play as her afterwards) then It only seems logical that any “End Game Content” would be held off until AFTER they’ve reworked the playable characters, otherwise they’d just be designing content now.. that they would have to alter later for example Wendy’s New Flower Bestowment buff, Could have broke that end game fight by being insanely OP.

So the TL:DR I don’t expect us to get an actual conclusion to RoT until after all the refreshes are completed.

This is all purely speculation on my behalf of course, but until a Developer steps in and confirms otherwise, I’m going to continue to think that Return of Them won’t reach its conclusion until everyone gets their refresh first.