[Poll] On Wendy's Rework Postmortem

[Yuuko]

@everyone - can we not make it a meme to reply to comments with "why did you say that" unless you're actually asking for clarification?  idk why people are deciding to suddenly call out mike for his posts.  His opinions may not match yours, but you can just scroll on by...  you don't even have to /puzzleface ...  Its not gonna kill you.  You derail conversation more by calling him out than he does by posting his somewhat tangential comments.

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why do people say “End Game?” 

I think in DST when people say "end game" they are referring to things that take significant set up time or involve abstract game knowledge, and are therefore nearly non extistent in pub games.  For instance Abi's old flower sanity farm required bee queen helm which rarely falls in pub games, knowing that Abi's flowers change to normal flowers if left on the ground for a certain time, and that you can haunt flowers to turn them to evil flowers.

I've played on consoles so I feel your pain there.  I can't fault people for looking up guides though - the primary method for human dominance over the world is our ability to pass on abstract knowledge to each other.  The games are the same even if the controls are different, so what works on pc does work on console, even if the ability to control it isn't there.

[CremeLover]

I am a big fan of most Abigail's Wendy's rework.

The new mechanics are a godsend, and makes abigail less of a suicidal samurai bodyguard and more as someone you can actually keep alive to fight together in later encounters. The new health mechanic also encourages you to keep Abigail alive instead of waiting to summon her or keeping a spare flower, contributing to the "sisters protecting each other" theme.

The rework's rework changed health damage for Abigail's debuff to actively encourage both sisters fighting together, which gave Wendy a much more thematic cohesion than the glass cannon mechanic.

I'll still miss the old sanity station mechanic, but I think the new Abigail mehcanics more than make up for it.

The elixirs however are a mixed bag , other than the insta healing and ocassionally the night damage and the speed elixir that was nerfed quite a bit. Those 3 have nitche uses, and the other 3 are mostly unnecessary in all except one or two situation. Other than the health elixir for bosses and the damage elixir for when I go farm salt so that abigail can kill the little cookie devils before they pierce the boat, I don't see myself using these as a relayable gameplay shift. At least the ectoplasmic poop makes for a good decoration when on the ground.

[Rinkusan]

13 hours ago, Shosuko said:

@everyone - can we not make it a meme to reply to comments with "why did you say that" unless you're actually asking for clarification?  idk why people are deciding to suddenly call out mike for his posts.  His opinions may not match yours, but you can just scroll on by...  you don't even have to /puzzleface ...  Its not gonna kill you.  You derail conversation more by calling him out than he does by posting his somewhat tangential comments.

The issue isn't that people disagree with his opinion. The issue is that his opinion - which is basically a rant on the existence of endgame content and those who look up guides with a console-vs-PC spin to it - is completely irrelevant to the thread itself. It's the equivalent of having a simple conversation about your favorite pizza, and someone decides to rant about animal rights because the words 'pepperoni' and 'sausage' were mentioned in the conversation.

I agree that one viable decision is to "scroll on by", but having that option shouldn't disqualify other viable options like non-destructive criticism, even if he was on topic. One of the forum rules is to stay on topic, so I hope you understand that these patterns of feedback and call-outs aren't just his opinions not matching others'. To his credit, I don't think he's intentionally making irrelevant posts (he even admits in a later response that he goes back to old posts to edit the point in), and some (albeit very few) of the call-outs are unfortunately framed with a condescending tone. All of that, however, doesn't change the irrelevance of his endgame rant in a thread asking people about their opinions specifically on the content of Wendy's rework. 

 

[QuartzBeam]

I love just about everything about this rework. It stays true to the character, while giving her a much-needed buff. And perhaps a not-so-needed buff on top of that, but that is another story and shall be told another time.

Obviously, she has quite a disadvantage against bosses, where Abigail gets melted in seconds and Wendy's DPS goes down the drain, but she is so good for fighting mobs and for all-around convenience.

And I, for one, like the elixirs just fine. I find myself using Unyielding Draught way more than Nightshade Nostrum though. Draught is about as good for 1/3rd the price. And, of course, you can use it at night to make Abigail slaughter a beefalo herd for you.

[prezera]

23 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Unpopular opinion, but I MUCH prefer the sisturn sanity station over the old one. It's made my early-game support rush as Wickerbottom so much less of a headache in-game and IRL due to not having to fight as many shadows (i.e. the ones that BOTH my teammates and myself spawn) while I'm harvesting. The old sanity station, while over twice as effective, was an end-game, solo-friendly station that took a significant amount of work to make. With or without the old sanity station, I personally never had any sanity-related issues at endgame. 

I love the sisturn, mostly because it exists in the first place. I can see why people were disappointed with the sanity station being removed, but I can also see why it was removed in the first place. 

But the fact that instead of just removing the sanity station and calling it a day, Klei instead went out of their way to make a substitute that was better balanced and more accessible to players always makes me happy. Thank you Klei, idk what we did to deserve you.

[Rinkusan]

3 hours ago, PrezPara said:

I love the sisturn, mostly because it exists in the first place. I can see why people were disappointed with the sanity station being removed, but I can also see why it was removed in the first place. 

But the fact that instead of just removing the sanity station and calling it a day, Klei instead went out of their way to make a substitute that was better balanced and more accessible to players always makes me happy. Thank you Klei, idk what we did to deserve you.

You might be even happier to know that you can still reliably make a weaker version of the old sanity station, and if you're skilled enough, you can make a sanity station that I believe might be even better than the old one. @ShadowDuelist shared a crown-sisturn hybrid station method several days ago; all you do is just plant flowers manually around a sisturn and haunt them like you would with Abigail flowers from the old station. It's weaker than the old station because the flowers are spaced further apart, but it's still over +60 sanity/minute.

Apparently, if you exploit an animation bug that allows you to build multiple structures on the same spot, you can double (or even triple/quadruple depending on the number of players participating in the planting) the sanity output from the flowers per area by having multiple dark flowers in the same spot, which I'm pretty sure you couldn't do with the old sanity station since it relied on dropped Abigail flowers as opposed to the animation of planting flowers. I don't remember what the sanity output for the old station was, but assuming the math checks out and Shadow's sanity/minute recording was accurate, you could theoretically make a +165 sanity/minute (25 sisturn + 35 from dark flowers * 4) sanity station with 4 synergized players on the same server. 

 

[prezera]

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

You might be even happier to know that you can still reliably make a weaker version of the old sanity station, and if you're skilled enough, you can make a sanity station that I believe might be even better than the old one. @ShadowDuelist shared a crown-sisturn hybrid station method several days ago; all you do is just plant flowers manually around a sisturn and haunt them like you would with Abigail flowers from the old station. It's weaker than the old station because the flowers are spaced further apart, but it's still over +60 sanity/minute.

Apparently, if you exploit an animation bug that allows you to build multiple structures on the same spot, you can double (or even triple/quadruple depending on the number of players participating in the planting) the sanity output from the flowers per area by having multiple dark flowers in the same spot, which I'm pretty sure you couldn't do with the old sanity station since it relied on dropped Abigail flowers as opposed to the animation of planting flowers. I don't remember what the sanity output for the old station was, but assuming the math checks out and Shadow's sanity/minute recording was accurate, you could theoretically make a +165 sanity/minute (25 sisturn + 35 from dark flowers * 4) sanity station with 4 synergized players on the same server. 

 

This may be a bit off topic, but could you make a sanity station using evil flowers + a mob? I tried this on my world with evil flowers and around 5 tree guards in pretty small area (the evil flowers were planted manually). I used statues to keep the tree guards in, and at first, it worked perfectly, but one by one the tree guards started to glitch out off screen and I was forced to kill them.

Is there a better mob to do this with? Idk any mob that doesn't destroy walls, gives off a negative sanity drain, and is passive to the player so I'm not sure if it's possible. Maybe you could bait hounds with food and make that work?

[pedregales]

For me Wendy and Abby feels almost completely unchanged after the re-re-work, they only added on top (which, I reckon, is what most people seem to have wanted anyway, so good for them). And the one thing I was actually pretty interested about the re-work (Abby doing more damage based on Wendy's health), got re-re-worked into it's old self before I got the chance to try it out. Which was among the things I disliked of Wendy before, in order to be "optimal" you had to wait for dusk and night (and carry a light source for night), good thing that caves are perma-night which makes her good for spelunking, but beyond that it is a boring mechanic. At least they added the "petals" that kind of makes up for Wendy's less than stellar damage.

I love that you can summon Abigail whenever, but don't like that you have to wait for her to be "fully prepared", and that you have to wait again every time she dies, it is apparently not enough that when she dies she has to restore her health at a 1 hp/sec rate, and if she is summoned she will have very little health.

I also like the sisturn, but find the effects a bit "undeserving", as in, the design is beautiful, and the sanity aura is fine; but it making Abby take less time to be prepared seems like a way to "force" the use of this item, is like they thought sanity restoration was not enough reason to craft it, and decided to make Abby's "levels" restart on death so that the sisturn could have some extra function (even then I don't think it is worth it to craft a sisturn for that specifically).

The elixirs are mostly fine. Although they feel incomplete or rather repetitive, specially the healing ones, and the shielding ones.

The pipspooks are just another version of the animal tracks. More importantly, mourning glory can only be farmed this way, I actually expected regular ghosts to drop 1 or some mourning glory or even an opposite version of it (shameful grief?) that needed to be "distilled" in order to be used (or could be used for different recipes).

TL;DR Wendy feels pretty much the same for me as it was pre-re-work. She was a character that you had to wait for the perfect time/moment to shine, and now even more so. You have to wait for Abby to get stronger after being summoned, you have to wait for dusk/night to have a stronger Abby, you have to wait for pipspooks to appear and find their lost items (this one seems to be the least problematic one, but haven't played enough to form a proper statement), Abby can only be under the effects of 1 elixir at a time so you have to decide if waiting the full time or change elixir. She is all about waiting, almost nothing is at the control of the player.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, pedregales said:

And the one thing I was actually pretty interested about the re-work (Abby doing more damage based on Wendy's health), got re-re-worked into it's old self before I got the chance to try it out.

You didn't miss much.  Abi's damage was pretty low even with Wendy at 1 hp.  She needed several super heal potions as well as multiple recalls to just to fight deerclops.  With the current mechanic even during the day Abi can take on swarms of frogs, hounds, ect because even if her damage is slightly lower she deals it aoe, and since she isn't wasting time kiting its a continual source of damage.  Add to that now Wendy can swing for damage as well and you get much more DPS this way.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 hours ago, pedregales said:

. Which was among the things I disliked of Wendy before, in order to be "optimal" you had to wait for dusk and night (and carry a light source for night)

I love that you can summon Abigail whenever, but don't like that you have to wait for her to be "fully prepared", and that you have to wait again every time she dies, it is apparently not enough that when she dies she has to restore her health at a 1 hp/sec rate, and if she is summoned she will have very little health.

 

you have an elixir to make abi deal the night damage in every moment of the day and with the sisturn makes abigail grow so fast (or dont let her die)

[pedregales]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You didn't miss much.  Abi's damage was pretty low even with Wendy at 1 hp.  She needed several super heal potions as well as multiple recalls to just to fight deerclops.  With the current mechanic even during the day Abi can take on swarms of frogs, hounds, ect because even if her damage is slightly lower she deals it aoe, and since she isn't wasting time kiting its a continual source of damage.  Add to that now Wendy can swing for damage as well and you get much more DPS this way.

I see. Correct me if I am wrong, but Abby's damage has always been AoE even after the first re-work, which means she was able to deal with frogs, hounds, spiders, and other such mobs thanks to the shield mechanic?

But yeah, the petals mechanic seems "superior" in a way.

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you have an elixir to make abi deal the night damage in every moment of the day and with the sisturn makes abigail grow so fast (or dont let her die)

I know about the elixir, but I wonder (and can't find much info on), wouldn't this potion be useless at night? As for Abby's level and the sisturn, I mentioned why I don't like that synergy in general mostly because it feels forced in.

[Scrimbles]

Felt like they made her too powerful, her only downside hardly matters anymore.

[Confused Rock]

Yeah wendy isn't crazy now or anything but her downside is situational enough that it feels like her "hits slightly less hard in combat" is offset significantly by her "can reliably kill any hound wave at any time with no equipment". You can almost always have abigail summoned now and dispelling her is without consequence. I also think most of her tonics are just ew. the heal is fine, but it removes whichever combat focused one you had on, and the wood and the living log tonic do the exact same thing. why couldn't the wood one just be straight up damage resistance? Plus how long they take to get. Thing is with tonics is that in most fights abigail will be fine the entire way through or will be pasted into bits. with the little bit of in between the heal is good, but that's it since any other buff to her is removed once you apply the heal. I messed with new-new wendy on a solo world and got to day 365 without ever helping a pipspook since there were always more productive things to do with my time. (Though that's not exactly the intended environment for the rework I assume.) Maybe that's a good thing though, that you can ignore the tonics if you want to.  Really I just wish she had an interesting downside. Her downside is great in that it's a really nasty one, but it's also one she can avoid most of the consequences of and in the end just slows things down a bit, you don't play differently. you just slightly prefer ham bats and morning stars more since they break slower.

[Rinkusan]

11 hours ago, PrezPara said:

This may be a bit off topic, but could you make a sanity station using evil flowers + a mob? I tried this on my world with evil flowers and around 5 tree guards in pretty small area (the evil flowers were planted manually). I used statues to keep the tree guards in, and at first, it worked perfectly, but one by one the tree guards started to glitch out off screen and I was forced to kill them.

Is there a better mob to do this with? Idk any mob that doesn't destroy walls, gives off a negative sanity drain, and is passive to the player so I'm not sure if it's possible. Maybe you could bait hounds with food and make that work?

I honestly don't know much about what happens when the map is unloaded, but have you tried using regular walls to keep the pacified treeguards in? 

Regarding hounds, it unfortunately doesn't work. Hounds prioritize live bait like rabbits, birds, and YOU over dead bait like monster meat. Even if you use rabbits as bait in a statue pen, the hound will chase it for somewhere over a minute before "taking a break" and re-targeting. If you're standing next to that hound for sanity while it's resting, then you're the next target. 

4 hours ago, Ogrecakes said:

Felt like they made her too powerful, her only downside hardly matters anymore.

In the context of weak mobs like spiders and hounds, I agree. In the context of boss fights, it matters a lot because the debuff that makes up for Wendy's low damage is lost if Abigail isn't alive. Unlike you, Abigail can't kite, and, for example, deerclops can take Abigail down in 4 hits. Even with single-target bosses, you're forced to face-tank to hold aggro if you want the full benefits of Abigail's debuff.  

Imo her downside still matters quite a lot because you lose a bunch of DPS if you let your non-kiting sister die... again. 

[Fuffles]

On Other: They Removed the only fun mechanic of Wendy's HP tying into her Damage Modifier. Think what you want, but I really prefered that over the boring time dependant damage modifier

[QuartzBeam]

11 hours ago, pedregales said:

TL;DR Wendy feels pretty much the same for me as it was pre-re-work. She was a character that you had to wait for the perfect time/moment to shine, and now even more so. You have to wait for Abby to get stronger after being summoned, you have to wait for dusk/night to have a stronger Abby, you have to wait for pipspooks to appear and find their lost items (this one seems to be the least problematic one, but haven't played enough to form a proper statement), Abby can only be under the effects of 1 elixir at a time so you have to decide if waiting the full time or change elixir. She is all about waiting, almost nothing is at the control of the player.

Nighttime: In my experience, waiting for night is almost never necessary. The only actual case where I would intentional wait for night is if I wanted to fight beefalo, cause they are a unique combination of tanky and numerous that requires Abigail to dish out full damage (meaning nighttime) and tank as many hits as possible (meaning Unyielding Draught or Distilled Vengeance).

The rest of the time, if Abigail can't handle a fight during the day, she probably won't fare much better in it at night. "Weak" mobs (hounds, spiders, bees, frogs, squids, etc.) die like flies to her any time of the day and she needs no help unless she starts the fight with low health. Medium mobs (tentacles, pigs, merms, knights, rooks, volt goats, koalefants, spider queens, tallbirds, etc.) are more about using Abigail as a damage sponge and DPS booster via the ghost petals. (Abby's DPS is 10/16.67/26.67 during day/dusk/night. That 16.67 point difference between day and night is more or less a drop in the ocean compared to the damage Wendy can dish out 24/7 with the ghost petals.) And big mobs (AKA bosses aside from Deerclops, Bee Queen and Antlion) will melt Abigail in seconds so her DPS is irrelevant.

And then there's the caves, where it's always night, so there's nothing wait for in the first place.

 

Level Ups: You don't need to summon Abigail for the upgrade timer to start (it starts the moment she "dies" and ticks down normally while she is in the flower). More importantly, it's fairly easy to keep Abigail alive, since you can just unsummon her if she gets beaten up. I don't think I've had her die more than 3-4 times in the current 180 day world.

 

Elixirs: As I said, you don't really need nighttime most of the time, so you don't really need Nightshade Nostrum most of the time either. It isn't bad by any means, but it's honestly fairly situational. It's for fighting single targets on the surface during day or dusk. If it's night or you're undeground, it is completely useless. And if you're fighting a crowd, Unyielding Draught does more or less the same job while being 3 times cheaper.

 

P.S. Can you tell the quarantine has me bored out of my mind?

[Mike23Ua]

There is a few differences between how the game plays on console or using a Controller as opposed to KB and Mouse.

Button Bindings on a controller sharing the same output can lead to some very horrible things..

For example to Return Abigail to her flower requires the player to press left on the Dpad, but you know what ELSE Left on the Dpad does If your standing too close to another person or a Campfire?

Gives the other player the Flower or Burns it for Fire Fuel.

You can also for some unknown reason.. burn Abigail Elixirs (I’ve done this twice on accident this week alone)

Also Unlike using a Mouse & Keyboard- To Return Abigail into her Flower the player has to be standing right beside Abigail.. 

The TL:DR what may seem easy as pie with a Keyboard and Mouse, May be a lot more frustrating & barely manageable while using an Xbox One controller.

[prezera]

1 hour ago, Rinkusan said:

I honestly don't know much about what happens when the map is unloaded, but have you tried using regular walls to keep the pacified treeguards in? 

Regarding hounds, it unfortunately doesn't work. Hounds prioritize live bait like rabbits, birds, and YOU over dead bait like monster meat. Even if you use rabbits as bait in a statue pen, the hound will chase it for somewhere over a minute before "taking a break" and re-targeting. If you're standing next to that hound for sanity while it's resting, then you're the next target. 

Even pacified treegaurds will attack any wall that they are beside.

As for hounds- would using a vaarg's hounds work? Or do they behave the same?

54 minutes ago, FuffledBeeQueen said:

On Other: They Removed the only fun mechanic of Wendy's HP tying into her Damage Modifier. Think what you want, but I really prefered that over the boring time dependant damage modifier

If it makes you any happier I'm pretty sure they said that they are going to save that mechanic for a new character

[ToXic Cur3]

Every rework I enjoy because it influences the player to try the character out instead of playing the same character constantly just like the game encourages you to expand your palate beyond meatballs it pushes you to do the same with characters try them out 

[pedregales]

On 4/4/2020 at 1:57 PM, QuartzBeam said:

Nighttime: In my experience, waiting for night is almost never necessary. The only actual case where I would intentional wait for night is if I wanted to fight beefalo, cause they are a unique combination of tanky and numerous that requires Abigail to dish out full damage (meaning nighttime) and tank as many hits as possible (meaning Unyielding Draught or Distilled Vengeance).

The rest of the time, if Abigail can't handle a fight during the day, she probably won't fare much better in it at night. "Weak" mobs (hounds, spiders, bees, frogs, squids, etc.) die like flies to her any time of the day and she needs no help unless she starts the fight with low health. Medium mobs (tentacles, pigs, merms, knights, rooks, volt goats, koalefants, spider queens, tallbirds, etc.) are more about using Abigail as a damage sponge and DPS booster via the ghost petals. (Abby's DPS is 10/16.67/26.67 during day/dusk/night. That 16.67 point difference between day and night is more or less a drop in the ocean compared to the damage Wendy can dish out 24/7 with the ghost petals.) And big mobs (AKA bosses aside from Deerclops, Bee Queen and Antlion) will melt Abigail in seconds so her DPS is irrelevant.

And then there's the caves, where it's always night, so there's nothing wait for in the first place.

I know nighttime is rarely useful when killing normal mobs, but for those few times it is useful, it is an annoying thing to "wait" for. But 16 damage per second is actually pretty noticeable, in just 10 seconds that is 160 more damage than during the day (plus I believe Abby's damage is roughly 14/23/36 during day/dusk/night, making the difference between day and night closer to 22, but I am not sure). But yeah, if you compare it to Petal-boosted Wendy, it is "not that much" (it is a lot still). That extra damage is also helpful to deal with bosses in general and dish out some extra damage before she dies, making the fight less problematic.

On 4/4/2020 at 1:57 PM, QuartzBeam said:

Level Ups: You don't need to summon Abigail for the upgrade timer to start (it starts the moment she "dies" and ticks down normally while she is in the flower). More importantly, it's fairly easy to keep Abigail alive, since you can just unsummon her if she gets beaten up. I don't think I've had her die more than 3-4 times in the current 180 day world.

I know about this. I am just not a fan of the mechanic at all as I feel it pointless.

On 4/4/2020 at 1:57 PM, QuartzBeam said:

Elixirs: As I said, you don't really need nighttime most of the time, so you don't really need Nightshade Nostrum most of the time either. It isn't bad by any means, but it's honestly fairly situational. It's for fighting single targets on the surface during day or dusk. If it's night or you're undeground, it is completely useless. And if you're fighting a crowd, Unyielding Draught does more or less the same job while being 3 times cheaper.

I see. Then the nightshade elixir is just straight up bad, specially when used during long-night days, night only games, or in caves...

[Willyhoo]

I only ever play alone, so making Abigail stronger means Wendy is my go-to! Easy to do co-op with an AI. 

 

[bruhmoment23]

10 minutes ago, pedregales said:

14/23/36 during day/dusk/night, making the difference between day and night closer to 22).

15/25/40, with 40 damage output with a pretty big aoe range during night or with elixir.

11 minutes ago, pedregales said:

Petal-boosted Wendy

Such thing doesnt exist. When Abigail starts to fight petals fly around her, Wendy attacking with her can pack in bonus damage as well as other characters as long as Abigail is fighting.

12 minutes ago, pedregales said:

nightshade elixir is just straight up bad

It's not bad, it's useful in certain situations. For example during the Bee Queen fight, Abby can take care of her minions easily with it. It can also come in handy against Dragonfly aswell if you want maxium damage output with Abigail and melt her down.

[QuartzBeam]

59 minutes ago, pedregales said:

(plus I believe Abby's damage is roughly 14/23/36 during day/dusk/night, making the difference between day and night closer to 22, but I am not sure).

Abigail's damage per hit is 14/23/36. But it's affected by the petals, so every hit after the first deals 15/25/40. Only she attacks once every 1.5 seconds, so her DPS (damage per second) is 10/16.67/26.67.

For comparison, the player attacks once every 0.5 seconds. And Wendy's total damage multiplier with the petals is 1.155x, so with a fresh Hambat, for example, she'd have about 137 DPS. (Fun fact: Wigfrid's DPS with the same weapon would be ~149.)

 

[fimmatek]

11 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Abigail's damage per hit is 14/23/36. But it's affected by the petals, so every hit after the first deals 15/25/40.

While many people say Abigail's first hit on mobs is less than 15/25/40, in my experience she does deal full damage even on the first one. She kills bats with two hits during dusk, which should require 3 hits.

Is it a bug? Or is the code misunderstood?

[QuartzBeam]

43 minutes ago, fimmatek said:

While many people say Abigail's first hit on mobs is less than 15/25/40, in my experience she does deal full damage even on the first one. She kills bats with two hits during dusk, which should require 3 hits.

Is it a bug? Or is the code misunderstood?

I'm not really knowledgeable enough to read the relevant code and answer this with certainty, but it's possible that Abigail's attack applies the debuff before it applies the damage, so she'd get 15/25/40 damage on all her attacks.