Thomas Die Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Wait, can we talk about crow really quick, we see them in the little paintings and maxwell/wagstaff recognise them as not crows also wagstaff find the crow/raven interesting enough to test , and wortox also understand the crows to be "tricksters". Did the crows do something to woodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 16 hours ago, thomas4846 said: Wait, can we talk about crow really quick, we see them in the little paintings and maxwell/wagstaff recognise them as not crows also wagstaff find the crow/raven interesting enough to test , and wortox also understand the crows to be "tricksters". Did the crows do something to woodie I looked at the quotes; Maxwell and Wagstaff never said that they weren't crows. If anything, their quotes imply that they're dumbfounded as to why crows exist in the Constant when pretty much every other animal is foreign to Earth. Additionally, Wickerbottom's quote outright states that these are crows. "The American crow (Corvus brachyrhynchos) is a large passerine bird species of the family Corvidae. It is a common bird found throughout much of North America."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_crow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 but wortox has much more credible knowledge on the constant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Rinkusan said: American crow Especially in the origin trailer, where the cabin Wilson is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammarr Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 4 hours ago, thomas4846 said: but wortox has much more credible knowledge on the constant How? he's not even from the constant itself,it's heavily implied that he came from another dimension by using the Ancient Gateway,and we sure know that Wortox only wasted his time on the constant with pranks against creatures and survivors. Also,i believe he calls them ''clever tricksters'' due to the fact that they're pretty smart birds in real life,so i assume the constant's crows are the same,therefore they're also smart. And there's the fact that crows usually plays the ''trickster'' archetype and are portrayed as evil in mythology,but that's something i don't know manure about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Die Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 oof, guess i'll take the L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNiggle Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 12/29/2019 at 5:58 PM, Rinkusan said: I considered the possibility that the pig king is just a pig leader unrelated to Hamlet, but it just makes astronomically less sense given that all of the visual connections between the two pig groups and the vignette description are basically screaming "these cursed pigs came from Hamlet" in our face. I always thought that the pigs in the constant came from the Forge, considering the following: 1- The Pigs in both the constant & the forge have physique much more similar to eachother than the pigs from hamlet (pigs in constant/forge have beady eyes while hamlet have white cirlces, hunchback, no females) 2- They both have extremely similar leaders (fat **** that sits on his ass all day, fake horns, mostly nude except for some sort of belt/kilt thing) 3- The vignette came out during the forge I also see that as reason to sort of discredit the "pig king has silver adorning him so he is immune to werepigism" thing because the silver is attached to horns that I'm 99.99% sure arent actually his seeing how A. No other pig has horns and B: It is probably the constant/forges equivalent to a crown as pugna has his own set of horns that I'm 99.99% sure arent his. If he ever was susceptible to werepigism in the first place, perhaps he got his immunity to it at the same place he got his infinite pile of gold, obelisks & haunting resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, LordNiggle said: I always thought that the pigs in the constant came from the Forge, considering the following: 1- The Pigs in both the constant & the forge have physique much more similar to eachother than the pigs from hamlet (pigs in constant/forge have beady eyes while hamlet have white cirlces, hunchback, no females) 2- They both have extremely similar leaders (fat **** that sits on his ass all day, fake horns, mostly nude except for some sort of belt/kilt thing) 3- The vignette came out during the forge I also see that as reason to sort of discredit the "pig king has silver adorning him so he is immune to werepigism" thing because the silver is attached to horns that I'm 99.99% sure arent actually his seeing how A. No other pig has horns and B: It is probably the constant/forges equivalent to a crown as pugna has his own set of horns that I'm 99.99% sure arent his. If he ever was susceptible to werepigism in the first place, perhaps he got his immunity to it at the same place he got his infinite pile of gold, obelisks & haunting resistance. I'm assuming you're trying to say that the RoG/Forge pigs have no females, not the Hamlet pigs, right? If that's the case, I would argue that this claim isn't a safe assumption to make. We don't have a full picture of the Forge pigs' society; all we see is the arena that we're stuck in after entering the Ancient Gateway. On top of this (no pun intended), you also can't assume that the RoG pigs have no females either. Even assuming that the pigs are supposed to mirror human civilization, tons of traditional human societies similar to the RoG pig society never sexualized or covered female breasts. If we're making connections solely based on appearances, the Forge pigs clearly have tusks whereas the RoG and Hamlet pigs don't. Additionally, I don't think using their eyes to distinguish pig societies from each other isn't a reliable tool; otherwise, by that logic, Maxwell (who has beady eyes) and Wendy (who has white circles for eyes) would be completely unrelated to each other. The similar overweight and non-proactive mannerisms between Pugna and the pig king could simply be chalked up to commonplace behavior of literally any person with political power. After all, it makes no sense for the person in charge to actually be on the front lines; if the leader dies, the entire chain of command and possibly the entire society that leader is running will crumble. I do believe the Forge pigs have some place in the complex history of pig civilizations in Don't Starve, but I don't think physical appearance alone is enough to make those connections or supersede the visual connections between the Hamlet pigs and RoG pigs. Regarding your point on my silver-pig-king theory, I did say that the silver rings were attached to the pig king's "hat"; I never said that the horns were physically a part of the pig king himself. It is possible that the pig king's invulnerability to werepigism comes from something else, but I can't find anything else that could explain that immunity. The only 3 things in the game that have been shown to prevent a werepig transformation are: 1) avoiding exposure specifically to the full moon's light 2) not having the curse in the first place 3) wearing a silver necklace I also considered the possibility that the obelisk was the thing preventing the pig king's transformation when I wrote the essay, but if this is true, it offers zero explanation as to why the pig king has BOTH insanity and sanity obelisks lying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNiggle Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Rinkusan said: I'm assuming you're trying to say that the RoG/Forge pigs have no females, not the Hamlet pigs, right? If that's the case, I would argue that this claim isn't a safe assumption to make. I mis-said what i meant to say; I meant to say that hamlet actually has distinction between genders. The eyes with human characters differ between whether they are masculine or feminine & I dont feel as if comparing mobs to them is a fair comparison. My point was that the anatomy between the pigs in RoG & Forge vs RoG & Hamlet definitely doesnt imply that they came from hamlet. Also I want to add that the grass sculpture & faded painting of the pig king show him wearing his grass crown with horns and grass skirt. Dont you think that if he were to have been living in this aristocratic world that he would have been wearing much less tribal clothing? Also I really dont see why klei would have wanted both Pugna & Pig King to be wearing horns on the side of their heads if it were not a sign that the two dimensions were not culturally connected in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 12 hours ago, LordNiggle said: I mis-said what i meant to say; I meant to say that hamlet actually has distinction between genders. The eyes with human characters differ between whether they are masculine or feminine & I dont feel as if comparing mobs to them is a fair comparison. My point was that the anatomy between the pigs in RoG & Forge vs RoG & Hamlet definitely doesnt imply that they came from hamlet. Also I want to add that the grass sculpture & faded painting of the pig king show him wearing his grass crown with horns and grass skirt. Dont you think that if he were to have been living in this aristocratic world that he would have been wearing much less tribal clothing? Also I really dont see why klei would have wanted both Pugna & Pig King to be wearing horns on the side of their heads if it were not a sign that the two dimensions were not culturally connected in some way. Here are some examples of characters with beady eyes and characters with white circles.Beady eyes:White-circle eyes: I understand that you're trying to use physical appearance as evidence of where the RoG pigs came from, but what I'm saying is that you have to be consistent with that logic. If the way the pig's eyes are drawn is evidence linking the two groups, then those same eye art styles have to be evidence of the same link between our heroes. I personally don't see any correlation at all between characters with beady eyes vs white circles, but if there is a correlation, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with gender. I don't see any anatomical differences between all 3 groups; rather, it looks like they have different phenotypes of the same body parts. The most noticeable physical trait is the Forge pigs' tusks which BOTH Hamlet and RoG pigs lack. To respond to your point regarding the pig king's depiction in Hamlet, I think you're making the assumption that the pig king's departure from his land of origin was recent. The vignette specified that this was a "legend", implying the departure happened a long time ago. In fact, we know from the existence of the pig ruins that the Hamlet pigs were originally NOT aristocratic. Also, while I'm not an expert on indigenous tribes, I'm pretty sure adornments/crowns made of animal horns are a common thing in traditional societies; in that sense, the Forge and RoG pigs have something in common, but I don't think this tribal similarity is enough to justify the claim that the RoG pigs came from the Forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNiggle Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Rinkusan said: If the way the pig's eyes are drawn is evidence linking the two groups, then those same eye art styles have to be evidence of the same link between our heroes. No they dont. In Don't Starve every species has had either beady eyes or the big giant white ones and the only outlier has been the players which makes sense because most white-eyed characters wouldnt look as good with beady eyes and vice versa. The eye color for players is just artistic choice and imo you could technically say that its also artistic choice for hamlet pigs but the big bug-eyes & tiny snout in the sterling trough deli pig is definitely a more noticable difference than the forge pigs having their tusks. Also for the record all human characters have had the "boy has beady eyes girl has white eyes" rules with the one outlier being Woodie (whos eyes are like 2/3 sunk into his eyebrows in the first place) untill shipwrecked & Wilbas eyes are infact still white but theyre just small so its harder to see. So assuming the pig king did leave the hamlet land >500 years ago how is wilba still a kid? Even if PK pulled an ejaculate & evacuate that would still make her extremely old. ((Ignore the "head shape" point in constant & forge)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 hours ago, LordNiggle said: No they dont. In Don't Starve every species has had either beady eyes or the big giant white ones and the only outlier has been the players which makes sense because most white-eyed characters wouldnt look as good with beady eyes and vice versa. The eye color for players is just artistic choice and imo you could technically say that its also artistic choice for hamlet pigs but the big bug-eyes & tiny snout in the sterling trough deli pig is definitely a more noticable difference than the forge pigs having their tusks. Also for the record all human characters have had the "boy has beady eyes girl has white eyes" rules with the one outlier being Woodie (whos eyes are like 2/3 sunk into his eyebrows in the first place) untill shipwrecked & Wilbas eyes are infact still white but theyre just small so its harder to see. So assuming the pig king did leave the hamlet land >500 years ago how is wilba still a kid? Even if PK pulled an ejaculate & evacuate that would still make her extremely old. ((Ignore the "head shape" point in constant & forge)) Your first few sentences seem to justify NOT using eye art style as a way of linking groups together. You correctly point out that eye art style is consistent among every mob species in the game except humans, but the existence of that exception in itself hurts your claim that we can use physical appearance alone to link pig groups to each other, especially when I can use the same species logic to claim that hounds and koalefants are connected because they both have white-circle eyes on top of the "artistic choice" argument that you mentioned. I agree that the appearance of the shopkeeper pig vs RoG pigs is noticeably more significant than that of the Forge pigs vs RoG pigs, but you can easily chalk that up to similarities in environment instead of claiming that one directly came from the other. The environment's effect on pig appearances can clearly be seen in the Gorge when you meet the swamp pigs who look almost nothing like the other 3 pig groups despite still being pigs. I'm not sure how a past roster of characters validates the eye-gender hypothesis; it's never a good idea to artificially shorten your sample size just to support your claim. The more evidence, the better, not the other way around. Also, here's a clearer picture of what Wilba looks like. I was actually suggesting that the "legend" was more of a span of a decade +/- a few years, but looking back, that does go against my implication that the RoG pigs left before the Hamlet pigs developed their cities. With that in mind, I think there's a good possibility that the RoG pigs who left Hamlet were a traditional minority who didn't get along with their more progressive non-cursed brethren who were possibly in the middle of a tradition-breaking Renaissance. It explains why literally every RoG pig has the curse while every Hamlet pig lacks the curse, and it also explains why Queen Malfalfa's romance with one of those pigs is shrouded in mystery. I actually had this thought process as I was writing the essay (see the section where I mentioned werewolves being a metaphor for minorities in contemporary literature), but I somehow completely forgot about it when I wrote the analysis portion, so my bad for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNiggle Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rinkusan said: I agree that the appearance of the shopkeeper pig vs RoG pigs is noticeably more significant than that of the Forge pigs vs RoG pigs, but you can easily chalk that up to similarities in environment instead of claiming that one directly came from the other. The environment's effect on pig appearances can clearly be seen in the Gorge when you meet the swamp pigs who look almost nothing like the other 3 pig groups despite still being pigs. 6 minutes ago, Rinkusan said: it's never a good idea to artificially shorten your sample size just to support your claim. The more evidence, the better, not the other way around. Wilba has white eyes in the game & beady eyes in the character portrait thing. (((also for the record I dont see point in debating about the white eye thing I've made my intended point about the pigs in forge looking more similar and you also have a point))) 10 minutes ago, Rinkusan said: I was actually suggesting that the "legend" was more of a span of a decade +/- a few years, but looking back, that does go against my implication that the RoG pigs left before the Hamlet pigs developed their cities. With that in mind, I think there's a good possibility that the RoG pigs who left Hamlet were a traditional minority who didn't get along with their more progressive non-cursed brethren who were possibly in the middle of a tradition-breaking Renaissance. It explains why literally every RoG pig has the curse while every Hamlet pig lacks the curse, and it also explains why Queen Malfalfa's romance with one of those pigs is shrouded in mystery. I actually had this thought process as I was writing the essay (see the section where I mentioned werewolves being a metaphor for minorities in contemporary literature), but I somehow completely forgot about it when I wrote the analysis portion, so my bad for that. Here are some things to consider - If he was the king how would it be shrouded in mystery (He is still seen sitting on his ass with his crown like the normal pk he is in the hamlet scultpure) - The pig king would have obviously been pretty famous if he was in hamlet cause he has his own scultpure and painting. Do you think a man who is obviously affluent would have to have his affairs shrouded in mystery? - I dont think a decade is enough to make a story of a group of pig men leaving their home to rule freely a legend. And even if it happened to be a decade you have to realize that the pig king would have still had to ejaculate and evacuate - I'm pretty sure the Pig King isnt sexually active just look at him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, LordNiggle said: Wilba has white eyes in the game & beady eyes in the character portrait thing. (((also for the record I dont see point in debating about the white eye thing I've made my intended point about the pigs in forge looking more similar and you also have a point))) Here are some things to consider - If he was the king how would it be shrouded in mystery (He is still seen sitting on his ass with his crown like the normal pk he is in the hamlet scultpure) - The pig king would have obviously been pretty famous if he was in hamlet cause he has his own scultpure and painting. Do you think a man who is obviously affluent would have to have his affairs shrouded in mystery? - I dont think a decade is enough to make a story of a group of pig men leaving their home to rule freely a legend. And even if it happened to be a decade you have to realize that the pig king would have still had to ejaculate and evacuate - I'm pretty sure the Pig King isnt sexually active just look at him I think one of your pictures is corrupt. My point with debating the pigs' appearances with you was to show the logical issues that can come about from only using physical traits to justify origin; it ignores things like environmental and cultural effects on physique in addition to the inconsistencies with player characters which can't be shrugged off as an artistic choice unless you make the same argument that the pigs' eyes are also an artistic choice. As simply as I can put it, it's like saying Native Americans came from an African village because both have dark skin and a society relatively in tune with nature. Where we disagree isn't on which pig groups look more similar than others; we disagree on WHY certain pig groups look more similar than others. Absolutely, I think it's VERY possible for any affluent figure to have their affairs shrouded in mystery. The shady dealings happening behind the scenes is a common trope for pretty much anything involving people with power (especially the rich), whether it's works of literature or real-life politics. Here's where I think both of us are wrong. "A legend is a semi-true story, which has been passed on from person-to-person and has important meaning or symbolism for the culture in which it originates." "Legend is a genre of folklore that consists of a narrative featuring human actions perceived or believed both by teller and listeners to have taken place within human history. Narratives in this genre may demonstrate human values, and possess certain qualities that give the tale verisimilitude. Legend, for its active and passive participants, includes no happenings that are outside the realm of "possibility," but may include miracles. Legends may be transformed over time, in order to keep them fresh, vital, and realistic. Many legends operate within the realm of uncertainty, never being entirely believed by the participants, but also never being resolutely doubted." In other words, the only thing that defines a legend are: 1) based on a true event 2) passed on from person to person at one point. There's no specification of the amount of time that has to pass for the story to be a legend. Also, now that I think about it, it doesn't make sense for our assumption of "legend" to even apply to this situation in the first place because the pig king is still alive; if "legend" in this context meant what we both thought it meant, the pig king should be dead. Also, let's try to avoid these kinds of comments. We're here to talk lore with logic and evidence. That being said, fatness was historically a sexy quality before the 1900s, so controversial comments on physique aside, the pig king should actually be the one getting all the pig ladies. https://www.sermo.com/history-obesity-renaissance-1910/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendhttp://myths.e2bn.org/teachers/info311-what-are-myths-legends-and-folktales.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
me real life Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Just want to throw something in here since physical appearance of the different pig types is being talked about: If a domestic pig gets out into the wild, it can revert to a feral, boar-like state in a matter of months, including getting hairy, growing tusks, and becoming more aggressive. The Forge's pigs fit that description perfectly, so I think it's most likely that the Forge's pigs are RoG/Hamlet pigs that somehow got to the Forge, then adapted to that harsh environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoughboy1917 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 This was a very interesting read, I thoroughly enjoyed it! I can't believe I didn't notice the connection between the story of the ancients and Maxwell and Charlie until you mentioned it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1464576869 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I sure am starved of knowledge, and lore. The idea that the nightmare and lunar forces aren't competing is interesting. I feel like the implications of that doesn't seem to amount to anything however. We already view both sides as hostile in-game so a revelation of cooperation would come off as, mmmm... rather inessential ...? Hm, not that this classic "light vs dark boiled down to literal manifestations" is any more interesting I suppose. As a side note, I interpret the mutated lunar creatures as something more like... Well so the suggestion here is that lunar somehow implant enlightenment knowledge and consciousness into things. And rather than mutations they seem to me like reanimated corpses whose consciousness refuses to leave the bodies when exposed to lunar thoughts. Not so much the perfect creature as much as they have to keep thinking whether they like it or not now. It seems to further cement the concept of insanity/non-knowledge and enlightenment/knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 16 hours ago, Cosheeta said: I sure am starved of knowledge, and lore. The idea that the nightmare and lunar forces aren't competing is interesting. I feel like the implications of that doesn't seem to amount to anything however. We already view both sides as hostile in-game so a revelation of cooperation would come off as, mmmm... rather inessential ...? Hm, not that this classic "light vs dark boiled down to literal manifestations" is any more interesting I suppose. As a side note, I interpret the mutated lunar creatures as something more like... Well so the suggestion here is that lunar somehow implant enlightenment knowledge and consciousness into things. And rather than mutations they seem to me like reanimated corpses whose consciousness refuses to leave the bodies when exposed to lunar thoughts. Not so much the perfect creature as much as they have to keep thinking whether they like it or not now. It seems to further cement the concept of insanity/non-knowledge and enlightenment/knowledge? We both are, and perhaps us lore-hungry connoisseurs will suffer a similar fate. I'm not too sure if lunar essence kills + reanimates or just mutates anything that's conscious. We do see what looks like reanimation happening with horror hounds, but we don't see that same event happening with pengulls and spiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooagain Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 8:02 AM, Rinkusan said: I'm not sure I follow. I don't see a 3rd celestial object anywhere in that scene. Maybe I'm just blind, but could you point it out with a picture? In the hamlet trailer, we see something pass in front of the sun, and in the next clip it's suddenly a blood moon. this would be impossible if the thing in front of the sun was the moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1464576869 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 15 hours ago, Rinkusan said: We both are, and perhaps us lore-hungry connoisseurs will suffer a similar fate. I'm not too sure if lunar essence kills + reanimates or just mutates anything that's conscious. We do see what looks like reanimation happening with horror hounds, but we don't see that same event happening with pengulls and spiders. Oh right the spiders, and butterflies as well. While pengulls could be speculated as having died off-screen, lol, the spiders and butterflies don't really come off as anything reanimated or kept alive beyond their expiration date, do they. Welp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 1/5/2020 at 3:30 PM, Mooagain said: In the hamlet trailer, we see something pass in front of the sun, and in the next clip it's suddenly a blood moon. this would be impossible if the thing in front of the sun was the moon. But it would also be impossible for a lunar eclipse to happen if a 3rd object were to block the sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooagain Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 15 hours ago, Rinkusan said: But it would also be impossible for a lunar eclipse to happen if a 3rd object were to block the sun. Well, the lunar eclipse is caused by the moon being in full shadow, which is Normal if the earth is blocking the sun, but in this case, it works fine with the new thing blocking the sun and casting a shadow on the moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinkusan Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Mooagain said: Well, the lunar eclipse is caused by the moon being in full shadow, which is Normal if the earth is blocking the sun, but in this case, it works fine with the new thing blocking the sun and casting a shadow on the moon. But according to your hypothesis, the Constant is the one in the object's shadow, not the moon. A lunar eclipse is only red in the earth's shadow because the earth's atmosphere has the ability to refract and filter sunlight; in this case, the Constant would already be in this unknown object's shadow, making a lunar eclipse impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WebberMain Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I just thought,wat if the ancient herald,is the Cyclum/Ancient Fuelreaver:trying to stop us from releasing the apocalypse,like in hamlet.In hamlet,he is leading the apocalypse because he is enslaven by them.Does that make sense ?XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodieMain45684 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just something to throw out there, I wonder if the ancient guardian suffers from the same curse Woodie and the pigs suffer from. Maxwell also says that fuel is the cause of his curse and that the ancient guardian used to be different, implying change. Could it be that nightmare fuel is the thing that causes lycanthropy. But it might be triggered by the power of the moon for certain creatures like Woodie and pigs? Why isn't the AG ever in a non-lycanthropized (made up that word) form? Is the resurrection of the Ancient Guardian after defeating the ancient fuelweaver cannon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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