Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

AngryMan

Wendy Rework?

Recommended Posts

Mike23Ua    5580
20 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

But in these cases there is no difference with playing Wendy or other character.

The Thulecite Club works in the same way with all characters, is even more effective with the other characters and there is not a single reason for others characters to not use it.

Automated means to fight bosses can and will be used with all characters, Playing as Wendy will just mean that getting to the automatized end goal will take longer.

So, unless you domesticate a beefalo early, How will this playstyle be unique and different to the other characters?

 

I don't consider "I have to eat like the rest of characters but more often" to be a very unique gameplay style.

Wolfgang has the same problem but with Wolfgang an early ruins rush is possible, boss rushing and killing enemies faster (Even killing some with a single hit) makes combat more enjoyable that with the rest of the cast.

Wortox, Webber and Wormwood are the ones that have drawbacks which will change your style of playing compared to the rest.

They kind of nerfed Wortox though... used to (before the Return of Them Updates) If Hounds started chasing Wortox you could just run to the edge of the land and soul hop to another Biome leaving the dumb dogs looking at you on the other side helplessly.. but NOT anymore, they allowed them to Swim! 

Hahahaha Ha HAH. Good Move, Klei.. Good Move.

Seriously Though.. I love Wortox, he’s probably one of my Favorite Characters Simply because he easily fits the role of Field Medic for everyone else, Just stand near others and release souls to not just heal yourself but to heal everyone around you, YAY! (And Who said Wortox was a Selfish little Imp?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

The Thulecite Club works in the same way with all characters, is even more effective with the other characters and there is not a single reason for others characters to not use it.

It doesn't, it is not, and there are many reasons for other characters to not use it, the main one being the cost of its ingredients. For Wendy and Wes, a club represents about a 14.66% spike in their damage output compared to the dark sword (51 with the sword vs 58.225 with the club, i.e. roughly the difference between a tentacle spike and a fresh hambat for default characters). For default damage characters, the increase is much less noticeable (68 with the sword vs 73.1 with the club--a mere 7.5% increase, half that of Wes/Wendy). A default damage character is less likely to consider it worth paying 4 Thulecite and 2 additional living logs for such a small upgrade.

With a damage modifier above 1.6x (through Wolfgang mightiness and/or Warly buffs) it actually becomes a net LOSS of damage to choose the club over the sword (68 dark sword damage * 1.6 = 108.8 = (59.5 base club damage * 1.6) + 13.6 average tentacle crit damage).

21 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

Automated means to fight bosses can and will be used with all characters, Playing as Wendy will just mean that getting to the automatized end goal will take longer.

Are we talking about the same kind of automation? The automated methods I know generally involve Bunnyman allies, lureplants, statues, fling-o cheese, houndius shootii, Wicker's tentacles, and/or Winona's catapults, none of which can be obtained significantly faster through use of a high damage modifier. It helps you kill clockworks a little faster if you're looking for fling-o gears in the Ruins, I guess? So like, 2-3 extra seconds per clockwork, assuming Abigail is down, while gaining 1-2 seconds when she's up? This does not strike me as noticeable slowness.

I think the relevant perks for this task are going to be things like movespeed boosts or minion utility, not damage modifiers. The value of bonus movespeed doesn't fall off nearly as hard lategame as the value of bonus damage does. Not that I think a race to automated farming is any more sensible of a basis for tier lists than boss rushing; they're both things of highly subjective value to pursue, as they're both almost completely unrelated to survival, the game's only objective goal.

In any case I'm less concerned with the small amount of time I lose doing an initial semi-legit boss rush as Wendy, and more concerned with how much time I save lategame by not needing to retreat from whatever project I'm working on when I'm away from base during a hound wave / how much time I save on depths worm waves by not having to spend as long getting them synced (due to a combination of less time syncing their attack animations and Abigail's permanent bonus damage in caves, Wendy clears 5-worm waves roughly as fast as a Wolfgang with maximum Mightiness). Post-rework Woodie's Weremoose form is also decent for that purpose now, but the micro gameplay experience of learning the Weremoose charge timing is different enough from combat with Abigail that it doesn't feel intrusive to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GetRektKids    1019

NON HIGHLIGHTED TEXT SCRIPT THINGY

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I've heard about the next rework most likely being soon for DST and people wanting a Wendy Rework. I very much want this because I play Wendy and I have some input on this possibly.

Wendy) So currently as it Stands, Wendy only deals 75% damage and loses 25% less sanity from night/dusk and other sanity auras. This is it. None of it should change, but there needs to be more that still makes sense to her character. Personally, I think one of the additions should have to do with Graves. Sanity loss should be lowered to at least 10 and the chance for ghosts should be lowered. A thought some people had was that she should also be able to more easily revive people. She might take less damage for effigies and telltale hearts (30 or 20 not 40). She should also lose less or NO (preferably) sanity from ghost players (HER SISTER IS ONE).

Abigail) as it stands for Abigail, She has her flower, takes 50 sanity to summon, has 600 health with 1hp per second of healing and does an AoE attack of 10, 20, 40, during Day, Dusk, Night, respectively. I think this is good, This currently stands very well for Wendy's role as a group mob person via Abigail. The problem is bosses and control. I think that for boss fights Wendy could make certain objects that tinker Abigail's role in the fight. They would turn Abigail into more of support (giving Wendy MORE than 100%, higher Armor, or speed boost for a bit). These objects would take up sanity like it does to summon Abigail, though not as much. They should be a little expensive and last a decent amount of time but not too long (30 sec?) For crafting it might take nightmare fuel or petals, and items that correspond with there purpose. For better control of Abigail, maybe you could pacify, or force Abigail to follow close behind you if she is fighting something you don't want. I also think if you are in a rare situation where you have to attack Abigail and un-summon her, it should take WAY less time for her flower if you are the one to kill her.

Other Stuff) I don't want a Woodie problem again. If Wendy is reworked and a video is released, IT NEEDS TO ACTUALLY HAVE LORE. Have it be the twins playing when they are younger (this fits for what we got for Warly), something alluding to how Abigail died (or how Wendy can summon her), or how she might be related to Maxwell. NOT some random stuff of her new powers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're Welcome!

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SSadkins3    1

This might sound kind of weird, but maybe Wendy could place rabbits or animals in the graves and eventually the graves could be dug up again? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I_Disagree    90
3 hours ago, GetRektKids said:

Other Stuff) I don't want a Woodie problem again. If Wendy is reworked and a video is released, IT NEEDS TO ACTUALLY HAVE LORE

Or we can just not rework Wendy. Problem solved.

Now, I do have some recommendation if Klei do plan to rework Wendy:

Firstly, the ability for Abigail to wear hat and body related thing. Can't we just put a thulecite crown on Abigail to make her happy even in death?

Second, the ability to share the pain and healing between sisters. Since the focus of her character is the bond between sisters, perhaps this can be used instead. Not sure if Abigail's regeneration will affect Wendy, I'll leave it up to Klei to decide. For the ratio of damage/healing sharing, I'll also leave it up to Klei.

Third, count Abigail as player ghost that cannot be revived. As long as she "lives", the world will feel like it has lost one more survivor. The benefit includes Abigail not dying to Clockwork Rook in three charges because she count as an uncontrollable PLAYER instead of an uncontrollable MOB. I suppose Abigail can still count as Mob if Klei want to.

Fourth and lastly, the inability to create more flowers but replaced with other method to retrieve Abigail's flower. Since Wendy cares so much about Abigail, it wouldn't be in her nature to just leave her flower on the ground. I'll leave the method to Klei. I don't even care if I have to get her flower manually. I'm sure Wendy would risk everything to get her sister's flower back.

I'm doing this so that her rework would be less painful, for me at least.
On a side note, I feel like Abigail's AI can remain the same as is. Since I think ghosts are limited to their most fond memories or something. (Please don't start an argument about ghosts and what they think.)
I also feel like the other character deserves much more loves... Can't we just rework Wes so James have to do the Wes Rework video?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    5580
1 hour ago, Gourmand said:

We'll find out if Wendy will be reworked soon enough, the roadmap should release by the end of this year

There’s always the possibility that ONI or Hot Lava becomes way more popular then DST ever could dream of being.. And sadly that would be the death of DST because they would discontinue the 2020 Roadmap and instead shift focus towards whatever is most profitable to them.

I joke of course.. (and I would be very very sad if it were to actually happen..) but it’s happened before with other Developers, So We just gotta hope they want to aim for the Labor of Love Reward for DST in 2020! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Despair    172
On 7/1/2020 at 7:41 AM, Swanky Psammead said:

...

I don't know what's the point here, this would be the case if all characters except Wendy could defeat these mobs in a short time.

This would be the case only in SP, Mobs and bosses got an increased HP in DST and unless you're playing Wolfgang then you will take time dealing with them and the shadow tentacle will help you to this faster.

How is it not effective with the rest of the cast? And how is using a Thulecite Club a very different and unique gameplay style?

 

Quote

I guess? So like, 2-3 extra seconds per clockwork, assuming Abigail is down, while gaining 1-2 seconds when she's up? This does not strike me as noticeable slowness.

Well, First the numbers here are wrong and this doesn't sounds like a big difference but it is when you take in mind all the mobs and bosses (which take extra minutes with Wendy, not seconds) that you have to kill before it + the time wasted in the extra resources needed compared to the rest of characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

This would be the case only in SP, Mobs and bosses got an increased HP in DST and unless you're playing Wolfgang then you will take time dealing with them and the shadow tentacle will help you to this faster.

Not quite; the issue is that, for most characters, the time to gather the extra resources to craft clubs is much longer than the time saved by shorter fights. You can make 3 dark swords with the resources that it takes to make 1 club, and that's usually a much more efficient option. (making a hambat and keeping it fresh in a bundling wrap sheath is usually much more efficient than either the club or the sword for that matter, lol)

It's a similar issue to why you don't often see anyone but Wicker crafting blow darts on a regular basis, even though blow darts are by far the highest direct-DPS weapon and would thus save significant time in combat. The fact of the matter is simply that combat is a relatively small fraction of the amount of time spent in any DST playthrough, and boss fights are a small fraction of that small fraction. Even in speedruns where a major boss fight is literally the only objective, boss fights will range from ~20% at most and ~3% at least of the total time in the run. The need to save time in combat is grossly overstated. The main reason to go out of one's way to shorten a boss fight is not to save time overall, but to reduce the window of opportunities for the player to make mistakes in a high-stress situation.

6 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

Well, First the numbers here are wrong and this doesn't sounds like a big difference but it is when you take in mind all the mobs and bosses (which take extra minutes with Wendy, not seconds) that you have to kill before it + the time wasted in the extra resources needed compared to the rest of characters.

I don't believe the numbers are wrong. I did the math quite carefully. Damaged clockworks have 900 HP (in DST). With a fresh hambat this takes a normal damage character 16 hits, and Wendy/Wes 21 hits. Player attack period is 0.5. This means Wendy and Wes take 2.5 extra seconds to kill a clockwork with a fresh hambat. (Note, again, that Wendy kills them a second or two faster than default damage characters if Abby is up)

As I explained before, you don't have to kill "all the mobs and bosses" to set up automated or semi-automated boss-killing arenas. The only mobs you have to kill are clockworks, to get gears for fling-o cheese (and not even very many of those, since you get some gears just from hammering broken clockwork piles). The rest of the work is just hammering/building bunny hutches, planting lureplants, building statues, etc.--these are non-combat tasks in which damage modifiers are completely irrelevant.

What you're describing is an initial legit (or semi-legit) boss rush, which many people perform as part of their preferred playstyle, but which is by no means a prerequisite for automation since none of the automation methods depend on access to boss loot. Even if Wendy chose to do one, the extra minutes on one initial semi-legit boss rush would quickly be regained through the time that she would save over the rest of the world's lifetime vs. hounds and depths worms (which come every 5.5 and 8.5 days on average, respectively, after the 100-days-survived mark).

7 hours ago, Mr. Despair said:

And how is using a Thulecite Club a very different and unique gameplay style?

Well, you've got me here; "a very different and unique gameplay style" is subjective. The concept of a weapon that "crits" for a certain amount of bonus damage, that also bypasses character damage modifiers, is interesting to me, and certainly unique in DS/T. But I can see how its uniqueness might strike others as underwhelming. You're still just holding the attack key and kiting, and maybe breaking up the mob's attack pattern slightly due to the shadow tentacles messing with their aggro; all that's meaningfully different is some math about the damage, that happens to be disproportionately helpful to low-damage-modifier characters, and is rather abstracted from the micro gameplay experience that you seem to value for "uniqueness".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Booklover    402
9 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

Well, you've got me here; "a very different and unique gameplay style" is subjective. The concept of a weapon that "crits" for a certain amount of bonus damage, that also bypasses character damage modifiers, is interesting to me, and certainly unique in DS/T. But I can see how its uniqueness might strike others as underwhelming. You're still just holding the attack key and kiting, and maybe breaking up the mob's attack pattern slightly due to the shadow tentacles messing with their aggro; all that's meaningfully different is some math about the damage, that happens to be disproportionately helpful to low-damage-modifier characters, and is rather abstracted from the micro gameplay experience that you seem to value for "uniqueness".

Your meaning of uniqueness seems to resonate with me as well. I find small things about a character cool and interesting, like Willow able to overheat during Winter and the fact that she's the best character for a Winter start is intriguing to me as she was meant to suffer in Winter.

Did you know? Pumpkin lanterns can summon Abigail! Try it if you don't believe me. I only found it out after attempting to summon Abigail with a butterfly in Hallowed Nights. Ctrl-F was amazing at targeting and Wendy smacked the pumpkin lantern at base before I could correct her. Now during Hallowed Nights, I always carry a pumpkin lantern with me for ease of summoning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vultureneck    84

I personally think that Wendy is in pretty big need of some kind of buff, mostly because Abigail was the only ally unique to one character and that made her special, but now I feel like she's completely overshadowed by BERNIE!!!. Abigail doesn't have as much life, doesn't pull as much aggro, has a more frustrating AI, Doesn't deal as much damage, and is harder to heal/replace (not to mention Willow doesn't even have a reduction in damage). Willow's rework just shows how outdated Abigail is for dst.

Also making a bunch of flowers to summon Abigail multiple times in one fight just feels so clunky, not to mention I feel like lore wise you shouldn't be able to craft Abigail's flower, I love Lucy but why is she a unique item while Wendy's only keepsake from her dead sister something you can make on the fly? And yeah, I feel like keeping BERNIE!!! healthy for a long fight feels way more smooth, too. As it stands I feel like Wendy definitely needs a rework, and here are a couple of directions I think would make sense.

-Better stats

If Wendy is losing 25% of her damage because she has Abigail I think that she should be worth more, people say that Abigail is better at dealing with weaker mobs than BERNIE!!! is, but as well as being less significant I don't even think it's true. In almost every single case I'm pretty sure Abigail is the worse alternative. Also 75% sanity reduction from darkness/monsters isn't that significant, especially since because she takes longer killing monsters she'll lose about as much sanity as everyone else anyways.

-Better AI

She moves slowly, responds slowly and gets oddly fixated on the most random things sometimes. I probably spend more time protecting Abigail than she spends protecting me. I usually completely avoid swamps when she is alive because she is almost guaranteed to die, and I can't harvest any honey without her killing every single bee I own, halting honey progression and dropping a crap ton of stingers all over the place. If you have her be passive that'd be great, whether it's through direct commands, having her change stances or something, giving her items or something or anything else really. If they fixed this using any method I'd be happy.

-New Mechanic

Not necessary for the rework but it would be interesting and by itself make Wendy more viable. I don't have any new idea that would be perfect but if Klei decides to give Wendy an army of ghosts or have Abigail turn more into a deranged killing machine the lower that Wendy's sanity went than I'd welcome the change. Maybe ghosts could share visibility with nightmare creatures or something

-Unique crafting

Most of the new character updates have come with unique crafting items. Can't say what Klei would decide on, but they're usually pretty cool.

 

     I love Wendy and I play her a lot, but I feel like there isn't anything that she can do that another character can't do better (except killing bees I guess). I'm excited for the Wendy update and what it'll bring to the table, because as it stands she just feels bland compared to the new characters. But I dunno, let me know what you guys think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GetRektKids    1019
On 1/7/2020 at 12:47 PM, Gourmand said:

We'll find out if Wendy will be reworked soon enough, the roadmap should release by the end of this year

JoeW said 

next couple weeks probably. 

But the DST team is really bad at getting dates situated properly :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
z3rox12    83

A cool mechanich they could use for wendy would be:

making abigail a permanent follower unique to wendy with no hitbox or damage with the ability,under certain circunstance, to posses other enslavable mobs (spiders, pigs, merms and bunny men, rock lobsters). This would give her access to permanent pets and abuse its unique quirks (chopping trees, mining rocks, starting race wars). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GetRektKids    1019
 
 
 
 
Just now, z3rox12 said:

starting race wars 

*BREATHING INTENSIFIES*

*HEARTBEAT SPEEDS UP*

*JOEW HAS JOINED THE CHAT*

@Gourmand Actually here is his specific quote from 11 hours ago.

We usually regroup a bit at the top of the year, figure out what we want to get done for the year coming up. That takes a little bit of time for us to settle into something we're sure of enough to publicly commit to. But yeah, we should have a roadmap here in the next couple weeks probably. 

k

 

 
 
 
 
4 minutes ago, GetRektKids said:

*BREATHING INTENSIFIES*

*HEARTBEAT SPEEDS UP*

*JOEW HAS JOINED THE CHAT*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Gourmand Actually here is his specific quote from 11 hours ago.

We usually regroup a bit at the top of the year, figure out what we want to get done for the year coming up. That takes a little bit of time for us to settle into something we're sure of enough to publicly commit to. But yeah, we should have a roadmap here in the next couple weeks probably. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Booklover said:

Did you know? Pumpkin lanterns can summon Abigail! Try it if you don't believe me. I only found it out after attempting to summon Abigail with a butterfly in Hallowed Nights. Ctrl-F was amazing at targeting and Wendy smacked the pumpkin lantern at base before I could correct her. Now during Hallowed Nights, I always carry a pumpkin lantern with me for ease of summoning.

I was aware, but I am glad the discovery has brought you such joy : )

Basically everything that has a hit point will summon her, aside from a few special-cased structures like walls. Personally I just kill the first mob I come across (usually butterfly, spider, pigman, catcoon, or crawling horror). I wouldn't like to sacrifice an inventory slot to a single-use pumpkin lantern when any other mob works too.

3 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

I personally think that Wendy is in pretty big need of some kind of buff, mostly because Abigail was the only ally unique to one character and that made her special, but now I feel like she's completely overshadowed by BERNIE!!!. Abigail doesn't have as much life, doesn't pull as much aggro, has a more frustrating AI, Doesn't deal as much damage, and is harder to heal/replace (not to mention Willow doesn't even have a reduction in damage). Willow's rework just shows how outdated Abigail is for dst.

BERNIE! has more HP than Abigail, but he cannot self-heal or stunlock enemies, which makes Abigail effectively tankier in numerous situations. Abigail usually deals significantly more damage than BERNIE! because of her faster attack period and her AOE; Bernie deals 50 damage per hit to a single target every 2 seconds (25 DPS), while Abigail deals up to 40 damage per hit to multiple targets every 1 second (40 DPS per target). Abigail can win a fight unaided vs. ~14 hounds at night and ~8 at dusk, and she'll win it much faster than BERNIE! will win vs. the ~7ish hounds that are his upper limit (you can test this in console, you don't have to take my word for it). Both of them can win a fight unaided vs. a single depths worm and will lose unaided to 2 or more depths worms, but Abigail does it a lot faster and thus takes only ~525 damage over the course of the fight to BERNIE's ~975 (not counting whatever damage BERNIE! takes to Willow's nightmares).

It is true the BERNIE! draws aggro from range, which is a useful perk. I wouldn't mind reworked Abigail being able to do that.

3 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

Also making a bunch of flowers to summon Abigail multiple times in one fight just feels so clunky, not to mention I feel like lore wise you shouldn't be able to craft Abigail's flower, I love Lucy but why is she a unique item while Wendy's only keepsake from her dead sister something you can make on the fly? And yeah, I feel like keeping BERNIE!!! healthy for a long fight feels way more smooth, too.

BERNIE! is definitely superior to Abigail for boss fights, aside from Fuelweaver, where both of them are currently a huge nuisance. Abigail is better for trash mobs though. She never needs repair because her passive healing tops her off between fights. You don't need "a bunch" of flowers--Abigail shouldn't need any maintenance against trash mobs beyond cycling two flowers. Unlike BERNIE!, Abigail also stays active when you're sane, and doesn't get lost trying to follow you through wormholes / Telelocation / Lazy Desertion.

You have a good point lorewise. I think there might be a solution to be found that keeps something like flower cycling available mechanically while straightening out the lore though, something along the lines of how Woodie can "summon" Lucy with a plain flint axe if he loses her.

3 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

people say that Abigail is better at dealing with weaker mobs than BERNIE!!! is, but as well as being less significant I don't even think it's true. In almost every single case I'm pretty sure Abigail is the worse alternative.

Yes, I am one of those people, and it is definitely true. : 3 Like I was saying to Mr. Despair, I disagree that weaker mobs are less significant. You'll spend a lot more time fighting trash mobs than bosses in a typical playthrough.

BERNIE! would only be better than Abigail vs. trash mobs in a world with near-permanent summer or near-permanent day. And even in that world, Abby would still be better in the caves.

3 hours ago, Vultureneck said:

I usually completely avoid swamps when she is alive because she is almost guaranteed to die, and I can't harvest any honey without her killing every single bee I own, halting honey progression and dropping a crap ton of stingers all over the place.

Abigail can be dismissed voluntarily. If you're going into the swamp or harvesting honey, just give her a smack with Wendy's fist or any handheld item; she'll poof instantly. Do your business in solitude, summon her back with your second flower whenever you're ready.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    5580
8 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

I was aware, but I am glad the discovery has brought you such joy : )

Basically everything that has a hit point will summon her, aside from a few special-cased structures like walls. Personally I just kill the first mob I come across (usually butterfly, spider, pigman, catcoon, or crawling horror). I wouldn't like to sacrifice an inventory slot to a single-use pumpkin lantern when any other mob works too.

BERNIE! has more HP than Abigail, but he cannot self-heal or stunlock enemies, which makes Abigail effectively tankier in numerous situations. Abigail usually deals significantly more damage than BERNIE! because of her faster attack period and her AOE; Bernie deals 50 damage per hit to a single target every 2 seconds (25 DPS), while Abigail deals up to 40 damage per hit to multiple targets every 1 second (40 DPS per target). Abigail can win a fight unaided vs. ~14 hounds at night and ~8 at dusk, and she'll win it much faster than BERNIE! will win vs. the ~7ish hounds that are his upper limit (you can test this in console, you don't have to take my word for it). Both of them can win a fight unaided vs. a single depths worm and will lose unaided to 2 or more depths worms, but Abigail does it a lot faster and thus takes only ~525 damage over the course of the fight to BERNIE's ~975 (not counting whatever damage BERNIE! takes to Willow's nightmares).

It is true the BERNIE! draws aggro from range, which is a useful perk. I wouldn't mind reworked Abigail being able to do that.

BERNIE! is definitely superior to Abigail for boss fights, aside from Fuelweaver, where both of them are currently a huge nuisance. Abigail is better for trash mobs though. She never needs repair because her passive healing tops her off between fights. You don't need "a bunch" of flowers--Abigail shouldn't need any maintenance against trash mobs beyond cycling two flowers. Unlike BERNIE!, Abigail also stays active when you're sane, and doesn't get lost trying to follow you through wormholes / Telelocation / Lazy Desertion.

You have a good point lorewise. I think there might be a solution to be found that keeps something like flower cycling available mechanically while straightening out the lore though, something along the lines of how Woodie can "summon" Lucy with a plain flint axe if he loses her.

Yes, I am one of those people, and it is definitely true. : 3 Like I was saying to Mr. Despair, I disagree that weaker mobs are less significant. You'll spend a lot more time fighting trash mobs than bosses in a typical playthrough.

BERNIE! would only be better than Abigail vs. trash mobs in a world with near-permanent summer or near-permanent day. And even in that world, Abby would still be better in the caves.

Abigail can be dismissed voluntarily. If you're going into the swamp or harvesting honey, just give her a smack with Wendy's fist or any handheld item; she'll poof instantly. Do your business in solitude, summon her back with your second flower whenever you're ready.

Buff Abigail Give her unique perks, let me heal her manually.. and remove the ability to “Flower Cycle”

Wendys Weakness should ALWAYS be in the time that it takes her to summon or ReSummon Abigail

Lore Wise it doesn’t make sense to be able to carry multiple flowers because Abigail’s Spirit only haunts that ONE special flower.

GAMEPLAY Wise they had to give you the ability to craft more than one flower due to the fact of other players stealing it, or you simply losing it and being unable to recover it.

but I have an easy fix for that too- Whenever Abigails Flower is lost or stollen it will Wilt and Wither away into ashes after a certain period of time, It’s only after the flower Wilts away that a NEW One can be crafted.

Depending on how much work is done to Abigail and Wendy.... (Such as For Example when Abby is Summoned Ghost Mobs are Neutral to Wendy and can be recruited as followers like Wurt and Merms.. or Webber and Spiders.. or Wilson & Pigmen- However Whenever Abigail is NOT summoned already Ghost Mobs will be hostile towards Wendy)

Remove Flower cycling altogether give Wendy and Abigail some unique new abilities and gameplay & make the heart and core of playing as Wendy revolve entirely around keeping Abigail in good health and managing her special flower.

if Wendy is supposed to fit the role of Spooky little girl who isn’t afraid of ghosts and enjoys the company of her ghostly dead sister- Then let’s make sure that that’s what her Rework is about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vultureneck    84
16 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

 

 

BERNIE! has more HP than Abigail, but he cannot self-heal or stunlock enemies, which makes Abigail effectively tankier in numerous situations. Abigail usually deals significantly more damage than BERNIE! because of her faster attack period and her AOE; Bernie deals 50 damage per hit to a single target every 2 seconds (25 DPS), while Abigail deals up to 40 damage per hit to multiple targets every 1 second (40 DPS per target). Abigail can win a fight unaided vs. ~14 hounds at night and ~8 at dusk, and she'll win it much faster than BERNIE! will win vs. the ~7ish hounds that are his upper limit (you can test this in console, you don't have to take my word for it). Both of them can win a fight unaided vs. a single depths worm and will lose unaided to 2 or more depths worms, but Abigail does it a lot faster and thus takes only ~525 damage over the course of the fight to BERNIE's ~975 (not counting whatever damage BERNIE! takes to Willow's nightmares).

It is true the BERNIE! draws aggro from range, which is a useful perk. I wouldn't mind reworked Abigail being able to do that.

 

   The reason I think BERNIE! is better at trash mobs is all because of his aggro, being able to pull the enemies off of you as well as he does makes those fights easier, it's true that without any help Abigail would fare much better against groups every time though. As for the self healing, the cost to heal BERNIE! with a sewing kit is so low that the cost for healing is something I never really notice.

I'm glad you agree about the aggro thing, I'd like reworked Abigail to have some sort of combat ability other than her basic "float over and kill things", but I wouldn't want whatever it was to get in the way of her stun locking, so I dunno how Klei would wanna do that.

16 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

Abigail can be dismissed voluntarily. If you're going into the swamp or harvesting honey, just give her a smack with Wendy's fist or any handheld item; she'll poof instantly. Do your business in solitude, summon her back with your second flower whenever you're ready.

You're right of course, and I know it's irrational but I hate doing this, but if there is a method to dealing with it I can't complain haha.

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

GAMEPLAY Wise they had to give you the ability to craft more than one flower due to the fact of other players stealing it, or you simply losing it and being unable to recover it.

Or they could just make it so other people can't pick it up, and you're idea with you being able to craft the item after a certain amount of time could work, or they could implement a way to summon Abigail or the flower to you regardless of where it is like you can do with Lucy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    5580

I play ALOT of games and I look at Wendy summoning Abigails Ghost as being similar to using a special ability in a game like Borderlands, Titanfall, Apex Legends, Destiny 2, SMITE, Rainbow Six Siege, Tom Clancy’s The Division ... Etc.

MEANING that Abigails flower is technically like having your ability go on Cooldown mode after it’s been exhausted in the above mentioned games, it should take some time to ReSummon Abigail because Flower Cyling just feels like down right cheating..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I play ALOT of games and I look at Wendy summoning Abigails Ghost as being similar to using a special ability in a game like Borderlands, Titanfall, Apex Legends, Destiny 2, SMITE, Rainbow Six Siege, Tom Clancy’s The Division ... Etc.

MEANING that Abigails flower is technically like having your ability go on Cooldown mode after it’s been exhausted in the above mentioned games, it should take some time to ReSummon Abigail because Flower Cyling just feels like down right cheating..

Ok sure, but how many abilities in Smite have cooldowns of 8-24 minutes? I don't mind Abigail having a cooldown, but the cooldown should not be so long as to arbitrarily lock her out of her key benefit for a chunk of time that could be a full half of a typical play session. Survivors' drawbacks should be challenging, but they shouldn't be impossible for a skilled player to overcome (e.g. Maxwell is squishy but he can still survive dangerous situations through kiting--he just has to be a little more consistent about his kiting than the rest of the gang). Imposing a long "no-Abigail" time frame where even experienced Wendy mains are completely denied access to her kit would just be brute-force lowering of her skill ceiling and depth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike23Ua    5580
4 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

Ok sure, but how many abilities in Smite have cooldowns of 8-24 minutes? I don't mind Abigail having a cooldown, but the cooldown should not be so long as to arbitrarily lock her out of her key benefit for a chunk of time that could be a full half of a typical play session. Survivors' drawbacks should be challenging, but they shouldn't be impossible for a skilled player to overcome (e.g. Maxwell is squishy but he can still survive dangerous situations through kiting--he just has to be a little more consistent about his kiting than the rest of the gang). Imposing a long "no-Abigail" time frame where even experienced Wendy mains are completely denied access to her kit would just be brute-force lowering of her skill ceiling and depth.

Your completely forgetting the most important part aren’t you?

A Wendy Rework would obviously include a Less dumb Abigail.

Meaning she will no longer lag miles behind you off screen, Or decide to wander off to randomly attack and ultimately Die to Swamp Tentacle, And Won’t float away when Wendy tries to get close to HEAL her.

A less dumb Abigail means less chances her flower is going on Cooldown Mode (unless you just really really suck at keeping her alive after her Awesome less dumb Abigail Update)

and be real bro, it takes probably 2-3 in game days after Abigail gets KO’d before the flower is fully bloomed and ready to use again.

Unless you just Flower Cycle.. Which Lore Wise makes no sense Whatsoever, and Gameplay Wise- Just Feels like down right cheating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Warlockadamm    3270
6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

and be real bro, it takes probably 2-3 in game days after Abigail gets KO’d before the flower is fully bloomed and ready to use again. 

@Swanky Psammead is being real 2-3 in game days is 16 to 24 min. It is a long cooldown to be honest, when you think about all of the other characters that can just spam there abilities (ex. Wickers spaming her book, wolfgang being mighty 24/7 with heaps of food, Willow cycling trough different BERNIES! once one is dead, Winona having a field of catapults generated with some gems, etc.) Ill admit that lore wise it doesnt make much sense for wendy to have multiple abigail's flower. But theres nothing game breacking either about it. People who cycle between different abigails need to sacrifice inventory space that could have been use for something else. Plus abigail isnt OP, she is a great help with your day to day mob type and being able to summon a new one quickly can be really helpful in some situation to be honest.

Hell i think that people that are able to cycle her are rather impressive. Here's a lil exemple :

"Oh my god that person cycled trough multiple abigail and managed to kill beequeen reeeeeee"... If that isn't inpressive i don't know what it is. It took that person around 19 min and to be fair it doesn't feel like cheating to me. 

If you feel like it's cheating just don't do it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

and be real bro, it takes probably 2-3 in game days after Abigail gets KO’d before the flower is fully bloomed and ready to use again.

It takes precisely 1-3 in-game days. The math is in the abigail_flower.lua file, it's (1 + math.random() * 2) days, which is 8-24 minutes. (Thank you @Warlockadamm for clarifying this on my behalf)

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Your completely forgetting the most important part aren’t you?

A Wendy Rework would obviously include a Less dumb Abigail.

Meaning she will no longer lag miles behind you off screen, Or decide to wander off to randomly attack and ultimately Die to Swamp Tentacle, And Won’t float away when Wendy tries to get close to HEAL her.

A less dumb Abigail means less chances her flower is going on Cooldown Mode (unless you just really really suck at keeping her alive after her Awesome less dumb Abigail Update)

I'm making no assumptions about changes to Abby's AI. Personally I kind of like how dumb she is, because it emphasizes the mutuality of their relationship. Wendy's value as a caretaker is greater if Abby isn't super bright and needs saving sometimes; it gives them a Lennie/George Of Mice and Men vibe, and it raises uncomfortably spooky existential questions about the damage that death and ghostliness may do to one's consciousness.

Either way, I stand by my original point. No matter how smart or dumb Abigail is, 8-24 minutes is too long of a cooldown. If a superior AI enables her to survive danger more frequently, that will just make the periods where she is banished stand out as that much more irritating. If Abby has a cooldown, it ought be possible for experienced Wendy mains to significantly reduce it somehow, if not through flower cycling then through some other method. The method doesn't have to be easy, but it has to be possible, and it has to be doable consistently with practice, otherwise there won't be any interesting reward for Wendy mastery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Booklover    402
On 10/01/2020 at 1:14 AM, Swanky Psammead said:

I wouldn't like to sacrifice an inventory slot to a single-use pumpkin lantern when any other mob works too.

I like to justify having a pumpkin lantern in my inventory is like having a campfire precrafted albeit weaker version. The pumpkin helps for nighttime activities and even torchless nights where you have a portable firefly to reset Charlie's attack counter.

Yes, it's not as good and many will not grab the pumpkin but since I can use the power of the map to travel in the night. The summoning part is just the cherry on top tbh. Yup. I have a fear of darkness and dying to it XD. The pumpkin lantern helped me overcome that fear and taught me a thing so it has a special place in my heart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Seot    54

Wendy should keep her damage modifier amd sanity. Why do people want her to befriend ghosts though? I guess it makes sense but that so lame to me they would be really situational and any perks relating to them would be a waste honestly. Its like saying a character can get sanity when next to a hound den or something like that. What I propose is abagail having some sort of warning to wendy if a hound wave is coming abagail will get stronger to assist her. Or if a boss is spawning like deerclops abagail will get angry or something. Dont really think this should happen for raid bosses since they are optional and meant for multiple people so klei lrobably wouldnt like adding perks to assist in them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites