We need more tool to manage the heat

[Eternal Firesea]

18 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

We should spend a few months figuring out the best strats before making statements like 'there are no heat management options.'

A big problem here is that Klei has decided they're ready to launch in a few weeks, so there really is a time crunch here.  All we have to go on are our experiences and our understanding of the game, and, for a lot of us, it doesn't feel like there's a lot to work with.  It's not that we want things to be super easy or to just make all the heat go away, we want to have a path to actually advance along.  Just rushing to a specific point where we'll have the "correct"  solution just isn't all that fun. 
And, remember, a lot of these are experienced players that feel like there's a wall.  We're all here on the forums.  You don't need to explain the game to us or cite the tech tree.  We simply don't agree that your suggestions match the problem we see.

[Hedning]

I think things like the petroleum generator was fun. If you cooled it below the required temperature you got rewarded with more cooling. The more cooling you gave it the more it returned to you. If on the other hand you were lazy and let it heat up it gave you a lot of heat in return. That was fun. I like rewards for doing well. I don't know what could replace it, but something like it would be cool.

[Grimgaw]

6 minutes ago, Hedning said:

(...) but something like it would be cool.

I see what you did there. 

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, Eternal Firesea said:

And, remember, a lot of these are experienced players that feel like there's a wall.  We're all here on the forums.  You don't need to explain the game to us or cite the tech tree.  We simply don't agree that your suggestions match the problem we see.

Well said. 

[QuQuasar]

I would certainly support the introduction of a space radiator. Space-based cooling feels like a niche that hasn't been filled and would compliment the solar panels.

 

However, my current game is on a (custom worldgen) above-average temperature asteroid, which doesn't happen to have a slush geyser. I gradually freaked out as I realised this, because I had expanded early and had a 25+ dupe colony, and hadn't made any particular effort to insulate my industry from my farms. I figured I was doomed, based on the forum's collective reaction to the cooling nerfs.

As it turns out, though... no. An aquatuner in my sewage water plus 4 fertilized worts in hydrogen, easily kept me going to cycle 200, at which point the water was only up to 35C. I didn't even need to import ice, and easily had time to get a steam turbine heat-sink up and running.

 

I'm enjoying the nerfs. Sue me.

 

I'm also enjoying the forum coming up with new ways to cool their bases. I didn't even know about the fridge cooling down food. That might actually be a good reason to use it now that BBQ comes out of the gas stove at high temperatures.

[Ellilea]

I have started a game on Rime and I am indeed enjoying it a lot. Plenty of tools and options to play with, it's the perfect kind of challenge for an ONI casual like me. Nothing too hard, sure, there's always something causing trouble, but I always have at least several options to deal with it.

All in all managing the cold is way more pleasant than managing the heat, I have to say. Though it might be cause it's way easier. I'm finding Rime extremely lenient. Not only does the cold eradicate all the germs out in the world, I also don't have to really worry about geysers/vents making a mess.

I think there would need to actually be MORE cooling tools than heating tools to allow this sort of gameplay, because of geysers/vents alone. On Rime their heat output is actually one of the good things that I can utilize, whereas I remember having to instantly insulate them in previous games or they would pile up onto my heat issues, not to mention having to cool all the water/steam etc.

 

[Mullematsch]

I don't necessary think we need more cooling options however that might just be because I am enjoying actually having to worry about heat for once.

Currently on Arboria, only trash geysers and volcanos. Rushing to space for solar power to get a few aquatuners going so I can deal with the 60C base was quite satisfying. 

With that being said if we get more cooling options, here are some ideas: 

1.) Revert or buff whezeworts - the fertilizer aspect is fine but tedious, so a slight buff would be nice. Maybe same as old wheezeworts if not fertilized, slightly better if provided with phosporite. 

2.) Some high-tech, very powerful cooling machine guaranteed on all / most asteroids similar to an AETN. Make it cost some power plus maybe petroleum and sulfur (just throwing ideas out here) so that late game there are alternatives to spamming aquatuners + steamturbines. 

3.) I'm all for making ranching more a required part of the game (loving no gold = ranching pufts; no clay = morb farm). How about some critter "eats hot stuff, poops out cold stuff" kinda deal. 

 

[Eternal Firesea]

A thermovore  critter is a pretty neat idea.  Although, that does bring us back to the age-old problem of getting Things into Places.

[Andz]

4 hours ago, bmilohill said:

Heat deletion has changed, so there are new things to learn. We should spend a few months figuring out the best strats before making statements like 'there are no heat management options.'

The veteran players are discussing about deleting heat with beans on a rail. If that doesn't scream that there are more options missing, I don't know what would.

[EnderCN]

2 hours ago, Ellilea said:

All in all managing the cold is way more pleasant than managing the heat, I have to say. Though it might be cause it's way easier. I'm finding Rime extremely lenient

I agree with this in general.  I'm not one that thinks cooling is really a big deal because to be honest it is super hard to cook your base since only the farming area matters.  However I will say that the space heater seems way better than any other early to mid game cooling option.  If the Ice Maker were equivalent to the space heater I don't think many people would be complaining about cooling anymore.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Andz said:

The veteran players are discussing about deleting heat with beans on a rail.

Player, not players . FYI, bean cooling is pretty dismal. Lumber cooling is way better.

 Also, at only 1400 hours into the game I think I'm maybe entering early adulthood, not quite veteran status. 

[Mullematsch]

14 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Player, not players . FYI, bean cooling is pretty dismal. Lumber cooling is way better.

 Also, at only 1400 hours into the game I think I'm maybe entering early adulthood, not quite veteran status. 

I tried lumber cooling on conveyer rails. It seemed okay but you have to loop it through the area several times. Its abysmal when it comes to exchanging temperature with the environment. 

[mathmanican]

4 minutes ago, Mullematsch said:

Its abysmal

Take lumber cooling, multiply it by 1/100 or so, and that's how effective nosh bean cooling is (this may be one of those statistics that are made up on the spot).

[KittenIsAGeek]

Apparently I stand alone when I say that the current thermal management buildings are diverse, engaging, and work well.  I personally don't see a need to further complicate the game.  We have:

• Thermoregulator/Aquatuner: Methods of quickly moving heat from a liquid or gas to some other mass.  Example: Cooling a pool of clean water and warming up a pool of polluted water.  This heat can later be used to do work, such as boiling the polluted water, or boiling crude into petrol.
• Ice-E Fan: A method of localized cooling.  Works great as a temporary solution.  Downside: Only runs when a dupe is operating it.
• Wheezewarts: Another method of localized cooling.  Works continuously, provided you have phosporite to feed it.
• AETN: A low-cost method of creating "cold".  Downside is its dependent on the RNG, so isn't always in the most convenient location.  However, as it only requires 10g/s of hydrogen to operate, its virtually free if you're using electrolizers for oxygen.
• Steam Turbine: A method to turn heat energy into electricity.  This removes a LOT of heat -- perhaps too much.  
• Liquid Tepidizer: A method to turn electricity into heat.  Extremely efficient, but only works below 100c, and needs a liquid present.
• Space Heater: Another method to turn electricity into heat.  Extremely efficient for its power requirements.

These methods can be combined in a number of different ways.  Certainly each has its downsides, just like each has its particular area where it shines.  You can pump heat into hydrogen, then burn it off with the hydrogen generator.  You can use an AETN to create a cold box that uses doors as a thermal conductor to offload heat from a polymer press.  Or keep your generators from melting.  A couple of wheezewarts in the right location can keep your farms functional without adding a lot of extra work.  

But you don't even have to use these.  You can use counter-current heat transfer to move heat from one liquid (or gas) to another, without setting up an aquatuner.  You may not be able to create LOX that way -- at least, not without great difficulty -- but you can definitely cool your base or other critical machinery.  No, the heat doesn't go away -- but you can put it somewhere that it isn't a problem until you're ready to use it.  Heck, pump heat into your pepper farm and forget about it.  I ran 4 kilns continuously for a couple hundred cycles in a natural pepper farm before I ran out of clay.  I also ran my rock crusher, and later my metal refinery there.  (Before you ask: No, the refinery wasn't on a closed loop).

Is it easier to manage the heat in some asteroids compared to others? Certainly.  Its also easier to manage oxygen in some asteroids. Or food.  Its also easy to get stuck in a rut and use the same method over and over.  That doesn't mean its the only method -- it simply means its the method you chose to use.  

I'm also not claiming that there isn't room to improve thermal management.  I'm saying that at the moment things are sufficient.  Heat is manageable, and the game is playable -- without needing additional methods of dealing with thermal energy.  My personal opinion is that there are other areas that should be the focus of the dev team right now.  The gas morphing and liquid duplication bugs, for example, should definitely be addressed.  Performance can also use some attention.  

[Eternal Firesea]

If you've reached the point where your lumber is "conducting" heat, I think you've graduated to new problems.

[pixoloco]

Dear Santa,
I'd like a critter that can destroy heat and an A/C device that work like the aquatuner but for gaz (much less effective than the aquatuner but requiring less power).
Thank you.

[Hedning]

@pixoloco 

A "critter that can destroy heat" is the Shove Vole.

A "device that work like the aquatuner but for gaz" is the thermo regulator

[pixoloco]

Damned, totally forgot of the thermo regulator  noob inside...
For the shove vole, you mean by eating hot food ?
I thought more of wheezworts with paws 

[Caochu]

1 hour ago, pixoloco said:

I thought more of wheezworts with paws 

You are looking for the Slickster in that case 

[watermelen671]

17 hours ago, BaloneyOs said:

makes trees exceptional for climate control without using outright heat deletion.

Wait a second...so this game's trying to tell me to plant more trees in order to prevent asteroid warming?

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS KLEI?!?! 

9 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

[snip]

My god I forgot how math and science heavy this game can get. 

[Grimgaw]

9 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Apparently I stand alone when I say that the current thermal management buildings are diverse, engaging, and work well.  I personally don't see a need to further complicate the game.

You're definitely not alone, it just the hyperbole crew being on a rampage.

[Blazing Falken]

Edit: Quote didn't work; re: fridge cooling.

 

Funny you should mention it, the past week or so I've been experimenting with rail/fridge cooling. I was planning on making a post after improving my setup more, but as it stands it can remove the heat from an aquatuner at 100% uptime using almost zero electricity. My goal is to use the same area to cool 2 AT's within the same footprint eventually (10x5 including the containing walls)

[mathmanican]

4 hours ago, Blazing Falken said:

I was planning on making a post after improving my setup more, but as it stands it can remove the heat from an aquatuner at 100% uptime using almost zero electricity.

I look forward to seeing this.

Update:  Here's a link for those interested. We now have a new cooler.  

Spoiler

 

 

[Wintersdark]

21 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

This is what I have been saying for a while. Most proposals ends up being either late game or not present on all maps. Heat management needs to be all over the tech tree, meaning you shouldn't end up in a situation where you suffer heat death because the heat management is too high tech for your current base.

This is kind of the key point in my opinion.  I like not feeling like I need to use the sieve/skimmer for heat management, and while I feel the nerf to wheezeworts isn't terrible, I miss them being a treasure to find. 

But in the current system, I dislike how the majority of heat management is very much late game.  The ice machine and ice fan are helpful early game tools, but they're difficult to control and *very* difficult to scale beyond that.  Now, for very experienced players, maybe aquatuners/steam turbines are early game, but they're decidedly not for newer players - they need multiple high end techs and a variety of advanced materials that all require a fair bit of learning to obtain.  Geysers are too random; sure, heat management is damn easy if you roll up with a cool slush geyser right next to the starting biome, but if you've only hot very hot geysers on your map (or at least, close enough to be practical) that's not too helpful.

I personally feel a more mid-game ice system is needed.  Something that can be built with basic materials, and automated, but that isn't as effective/efficient as late game options.  Even if that's just an automated ice maker and chiller. I'm not really an idea guy here; but I'm right on board that there's a mid-game map-independent gap in heat management that's sorely needed.

12 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Apparently I stand alone when I say that the current thermal management buildings are diverse, engaging, and work well.  I personally don't see a need to further complicate the game.  We have:

• Thermoregulator/Aquatuner: Methods of quickly moving heat from a liquid or gas to some other mass.  Example: Cooling a pool of clean water and warming up a pool of polluted water.  This heat can later be used to do work, such as boiling the polluted water, or boiling crude into petrol.
• Ice-E Fan: A method of localized cooling.  Works great as a temporary solution.  Downside: Only runs when a dupe is operating it.
• Wheezewarts: Another method of localized cooling.  Works continuously, provided you have phosporite to feed it.
• AETN: A low-cost method of creating "cold".  Downside is its dependent on the RNG, so isn't always in the most convenient location.  However, as it only requires 10g/s of hydrogen to operate, its virtually free if you're using electrolizers for oxygen.
• Steam Turbine: A method to turn heat energy into electricity.  This removes a LOT of heat -- perhaps too much.  
• Liquid Tepidizer: A method to turn electricity into heat.  Extremely efficient, but only works below 100c, and needs a liquid present.
• Space Heater: Another method to turn electricity into heat.  Extremely efficient for its power requirements.

 

The issue here is that creating heat is trivial - there's lots of good options there all over the tech tree.  Particularly low level heat (space heater, liquid tepidizer) is great.  These are good options, as there's ways to move heat to an area, or to simply create it, all over the tech tree and on any map.

The problem is that cooling doesn't come anywhere close to heating.  

Wheezeworts and AETN simply don't exist on several maps - specifically, the maps that don't have ice biomes.  As such, they're off the table immediately.  That leaves:

• Thermoreg/Aquatuner: Very effective, but later game and just moving heat.  The Aquatuner in particular tends to be fairly advanced in it's actual operation as it's very easy to break things with it.
• Ice-E Fan: Great for a very early game temporary solution
• Steam Turbine: Late game, advanced materials required.

 

Note the gap there?  As soon as there's no ice biome, you see the huge hole vs. heating options.  

[SakuraKoi]

I'd be 100% fine with the options currently implemented if there was a little change...

 

That'd be if fridges don't just work for food and were a bit more... industrial. Of course they should not be able to freeze something to 0K but -40°C must be doable while also changing states, without breaking. It's a little odd that one has to create isolated chambers oneself. It does not need to or rather must not delete heat (like the ice maker or fridge).

Also, once one deconstructs an AETN, one should be able to build them, with Steel I would not mind.