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Smart battery desync?


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I've run into a problem with my latest game, where I have a circuit with several smart batteries on it, and they don't charge/discharge evenly.  All batteries were placed on the circuit before any charge was on any of them, and over time they've drifted apart on the charge within them.  It ends up being quite a big issue as, if the charge starts to get low, I want to shed certain loads (just like UPSes do IRL).  But, because they become desynced, this becomes impossible as the battery used to cut a heavy load shuts off power (when charge gets low) while the battery controlling the generators say no power is requested (still has a high charge). :?

Has anyone else encountered this issue?  Is it considered a bug?  Is there any workaround, or should I just give up trying to have complex power systems?

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Easiest solution would probably be to turn all loads off for an hour or so each day to supply the batteries only to resync them. 

A more compex but lower wasted resync time automated way would be use a memory switch to control this 'master off' based on when the smart batteries are going off out of order. 

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23 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Why do you have multiple smart batteries on one circuit?  You should only need one

Smart batteries have less heat production and energy runoff, so they can be more efficient depending on your needs

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22 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Why do you have multiple smart batteries on one circuit?  You should only need one

It sounds like his solution to greater load than supply is to simply cut off less needed sections of the base when he doesn't have much generated. 

Alternatively, when you've excess power, multiple is nice because I have multiple power sources. I want to get rid of all of my hydrogen apart from what is going to the magic ice totem, and also run my steam turbines, but when that isn't enough I want to burn nat gas, and when that isn't enough I want to burn oil, and when that isn't enough I want to burn coal. So if you have one master circuit, that's at least 3 smart batteries needed. 

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1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

Why do you have multiple smart batteries on one circuit?  You should only need one

54 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

It sounds like his solution to greater load than supply is to simply cut off less needed sections of the base when he doesn't have much generated. 

Alternatively, when you've excess power, multiple is nice because I have multiple power sources. I want to get rid of all of my hydrogen apart from what is going to the magic ice totem, and also run my steam turbines, but when that isn't enough I want to burn nat gas, and when that isn't enough I want to burn oil, and when that isn't enough I want to burn coal. So if you have one master circuit, that's at least 3 smart batteries needed. 

I do something similar, though it is usually natural gas, then petroleum, then hydrogen, then coal in the midgame. Either way, it is around 4-5 smart batteries.  But if I have enough space, I will also build arrays of smart batteries because of the reduced power drain if I have solar panels.

9 hours ago, cblack said:

I've run into a problem with my latest game, where I have a circuit with several smart batteries on it, and they don't charge/discharge evenly.  All batteries were placed on the circuit before any charge was on any of them, and over time they've drifted apart on the charge within them.  It ends up being quite a big issue as, if the charge starts to get low, I want to shed certain loads (just like UPSes do IRL).  But, because they become desynced, this becomes impossible as the battery used to cut a heavy load shuts off power (when charge gets low) while the battery controlling the generators say no power is requested (still has a high charge). :?

Has anyone else encountered this issue?  Is it considered a bug?  Is there any workaround, or should I just give up trying to have complex power systems?

I've never been aware of a problem like this.   A screenshot of your system would be helpful. 

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56 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

Easiest solution would probably be to turn all loads off for an hour or so each day to supply the batteries only to resync them. 

A more compex but lower wasted resync time automated way would be use a memory switch to control this 'master off' based on when the smart batteries are going off out of order. 

Turning everything off for even an hour is a problem, as my dupes are active 24/7, and they can't leave the base without exosuits.

I should be able to force a resync by using lots of solar panels and overcharging the batteries, assuming I can put in enough solar panels to outproduce my consumption for a long time.  But, this wastes a lot of power, as I'd rather just increase the battery count to make better use of the solar power.

49 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Perhaps if OP would share a screenshot of his power grid we can offer better advice

Not sure how it will help but here it is.  The battery near the power plant in the lower left, which is used to control the on/off for generation, stays charged more than the three near the base on the upper right.  Ignore the battery within the base itself, it's part of the SPOM and not connected in any way to the other circuits.

xan3pn.jpg

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I have encountered that problem too and I think I fixed it by setting all batteries to 0 and 100%, meaning first the batteries became fully charged (not all of them) and then no power production until they were all drained. After that they should be back in sync.

You can also use the battery sensor in Sensory Overload. It reads all the batteries, add up their charge and capacities and treat them as one giant battery. This way you have one sensor to control power production and you don't have to care about unevenly charged batteries. If you like, you can produce power until 100% and all batteries are charged. You can also add two sensors to the same wire and use those to not let all generators start and stop at the same time.

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You could make a water clock to resync your batteries once every 10 cycles or so. More often than that is hardly needed. To resync you just overproduce power for as long time as you know that all batteries will reach 100%.

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30 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

You could make a water clock to resync your batteries once every 10 cycles or so. More often than that is hardly needed. To resync you just overproduce power for as long time as you know that all batteries will reach 100%.

You don't need to resync the batteries once they are in sync. Batteries will stay in sync, at least if they are all of the same type. The out of sync problem will only happen when you add more batteries to the wire. If you get the batteries in sync and do not add or remove any, then they should stay in sync forever.

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19 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

You don't need to resync the batteries once they are in sync. Batteries will stay in sync, at least if they are all of the same type. The out of sync problem will only happen when you add more batteries to the wire. If you get the batteries in sync and do not add or remove any, then they should stay in sync forever.

As I stated in the original post, this is not the case.  These batteries were all added to the circuit before any of them were ever powered up, and they're all smart batteries.  If they stayed in sync, this wouldn't be a problem.

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23 minutes ago, cblack said:

As I stated in the original post, this is not the case.  These batteries were all added to the circuit before any of them were ever powered up, and they're all smart batteries.  If they stayed in sync, this wouldn't be a problem.

Opps, you are right. You said that in the first post. I wonder how that happened because whenever I set up something like that, they stay in sync. Maybe it's some kind of rounding issue, which accumulate up to become a noticeable difference. I think they are supposed to stay in sync.

In that case all I can say is to use the battery sensor from Sensory Overload. Think of it as a smart battery, which instead of looking at the charge it has itself, it will look at the charge of all the batteries on the wire. If your batteries are 20% charged on average, it will use 20% even if some of the batteries are empty meaning while it doesn't solve the issue of unevenly battery usage, it ignores the problem for sensor output. It also means you can add multiple sensors to the same battery to get activation signals for different battery levels.

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I've never seen that happen but it sounds super annoying. I have no idea why but I can suggest other stuff you might have overlooked.

I see you have enough transformers on your heavy-watt cable to overload the circuit if you draw too much power. If that's a possibility, then maybe an overload broke the cable and your dupes fixed it all while you were microwaving a burrito and you didn't even notice. That, or something like it. Like you deconstructed a cable segment by accident and rebuilt it right away, and you didn't think about the batteries at the time.

If you want to make a device to reset the batteries automatically, use a new battery that normally stays disconnected and empty (via power switches, etc) but occasionally connects, turns the generators on, makes them run until the battery is completely full, then disconnects and dumps it's power back onto the circuit. That way you can do it as frequently or infrequently as you like and there isn't any power waste.

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I got inspired and made an automated battery synchonrizer for posterity. No power wasted. Use any timer you like, but I used a clock to start it off once a cycle.

It depends on charging all your batteries to full power, so if that's a thing that is a bad idea for your base then maybe it's not a good choice.

All it does is keep an empty/disconnected spare battery, and to synchronize it connects the battery and turns on the generators until the battery is full. Thus, ALL the batteries are full. Then, it disconnects the battery and dumps it's power back on the main circuit asap so it's ready to go again.

5d09895ff38a4_Screenshotfrom2019-06-1817-55-29.thumb.png.f3e4c54487e9ad5b5cb4f22ca6addf65.png

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2 hours ago, Tonyroid said:

I see you have enough transformers on your heavy-watt cable to overload the circuit if you draw too much power. If that's a possibility, then maybe an overload broke the cable and your dupes fixed it all while you were microwaving a burrito and you didn't even notice. That, or something like it. Like you deconstructed a cable segment by accident and rebuilt it right away, and you didn't think about the batteries at the time.

This is my best guess as well.  The short would have occurred between the base and NG plant (as the three in the base appear evenly powered). This would also explain why the NG battery is much fuller. With that many transformers attached to your grid, you can easily fry your heavy watt wire, despite not drawing over 20kW power.  That, or you accidentally deconstructed and then rebuilt at one point. Anytime my batteries have gotten out of sync, it is always because of something like the above. 

 

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2 hours ago, Tonyroid said:

I see you have enough transformers on your heavy-watt cable to overload the circuit if you draw too much power. If that's a possibility, then maybe an overload broke the cable and your dupes fixed it all while you were microwaving a burrito and you didn't even notice. That, or something like it. Like you deconstructed a cable segment by accident and rebuilt it right away, and you didn't think about the batteries at the time.

I'm sure I've never exceeded the 20KW limit, as the only dupe who is allowed to tidy isn't permitted there, so if anything were damage I'd have noticed.  The main reason for all of the transformers is for the other side of the wire that's only permitted to pull 2KW, and keeping all of those circuits below 2KW possible.

As for removal and rebuilding, I'm sure I haven't done that.  I'd have noticed if I removed any wire were removed, as all dupes refuse to leave the base once the atmo suits are unplugged.  The only time I accidentally remove anything is when I forget to set the destruct tool to "buildings" after loading in, but I've gotten so used to doing that it's second nature by now.

I suspect it's caused by a rounding error.  If you're really interested, I'm sure I can repeat the problem in a much cleaner sandbox, but it'll probably still take several hundred cycles to be pronounced enough to notice.

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Batteries became supply power net with little lag. First give power nearest to consumer, then next etc. This may case desync.

 

For high consume net enough mix jumbo with smart (no care about heat (most machine create lot more) and run-off (power bank discharge very quick)). Most simply scheme is 'pushmi-pullyu'.

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9B83043B3FF899866179605AF2625C757913901F

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23 minutes ago, fiziologus said:

Batteries became supply power net with little lag. First give power nearest to consumer, then next etc. This may case desync

Can anyone else confirm this? In my experience each circuit has some kind of arbitrary order of priority for all of the buildings connected to it and the power runs equally from the batteries to power the buildings in that order. I'm going to do some experiments and see what I can find out.

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7 minutes ago, Tonyroid said:

Can anyone else confirm this? In my experience each circuit has some kind of arbitrary order of priority for all of the buildings connected to it and the power runs equally from the batteries to power the buildings in that order. I'm going to do some experiments and see what I can find out.

Confirm long ago and use for power automation (before smart battery born).

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Actually, I think I may finally know what is causing this.  I've had this issue earlier in my game, where I would get water pouring down into my lava/oil area, as I has pools of it on either side above to allow ladder/pole access.  It looked something like this:

axj78y.jpg

Originally those insulated walls you see there were 1-thick instead of the 2-thick that you see here, and I thought that somehow the water was leaking through a 1-thick wall.  After making them 2-thick, I hadn't had any problems.  That is, until now.

After working a lot near space, I took a look back down below to see how my gold volcano down there was doing, and I saw water everywhere.  What was really odd was two of the insulated tiles I had built had just disappeared (the two lowest on the left wall), allowing almost all of the water in the left pool to flow down.  I couldn't figure out how my tiles had just vanished, and I looked around some more to survey the damage.

Then when I looked back, I found something absolutely maddening.  The tiles had magically reappeared!  I never issued an order to rebuild them, they just popped out of nowhere, and were back in the wall as if they had never gone missing, except for the massive quantity of water now polluting my pools of oil and petroleum.

So I'm not sure how, but somehow, someway in this game, tiles can be "unloaded" while you're not looking at them, and when that happens, bad things can happen.  I assume something similar happened with the tiles below the batteries, but I can't prove it.  I suspect that tiles in the wall went missing previously, and that's what caused the earlier flooding of the lava biome.

The worst part about this bug is it's almost impossible to catch in the act, as the first time I could actually see the missing blocks on my screen was at cycle ~2200.  However, they actually went missing much earlier, and more frequently, as evidenced by the flooding, so who knows how often this happens "off screen."  In any case, this is such a game-breaking bug, I don't see myself playing any more until it's fixed.  I'll report it in the bugs section, assuming it's not already there.

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5 hours ago, cblack said:

What was really odd was two of the insulated tiles I had built had just disappeared (the two lowest on the left wall)

Water pressure can damage tiles, making them leak and eventually get deconstructed. Double walls can handle higher pressure. The allowed pressure depends on type of tile and mineral used. Without knowing more details, this might have happened to your game.

However that doesn't explain the return of the tiles.

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6 hours ago, fiziologus said:

Confirm long ago and use for power automation (before smart battery born).

The longer ago it was, the more likely it is to be wrong today.

23 minutes ago, Nightinggale said:

Water pressure can damage tiles, making them leak and eventually get deconstructed. Double walls can handle higher pressure. The allowed pressure depends on type of tile and mineral used. Without knowing more details, this might have happened to your game.

However that doesn't explain the return of the tiles.

Nightinggale is right. Water pressure will destroy the lowest blocks in a wall when the pressure gets too high because the liquid is deep. They leak when the pressure is damaging them, so that explains the leaking. The amount of pressure a block can hold depends on what you make it out of. For regular tiles, sandstone is weakest and can hold water 4 tiles deep, granite is the strongest and can hold water 30 tiles deep. I have no idea what the pressure limits are for insulated tiles.

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