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Useless geysers - what for?


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Hi again, Lets talk about useles geysers and thing how to fix them.

We all love water and metal geysers / volcano.

Some people love NG 

But what for we can use CD geysers / vents, hot steam or hot oil?

Its not problem to tame them, but that for? they take place but have no sence or challenge...

Hot steam - 100g/s - ok we can cool it but water / energy output usseless

CD - hot or cold - 50-100 g/s - its nothing - totally useles, nothing to challenge

Hot oil - same.

Looks like we need some modding to add interest to interact with thise totally useless objects....

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Zakery said:

Hot steam - 100g/s - ok we can cool it but water / energy output usseless

Just seal it and put a steam turbine with 1 open port above.

=> Free water and energy without any duplicant interaction

 

19 minutes ago, Zakery said:

CD - hot or cold - 50-100 g/s - its nothing - totally useles, nothing to challenge

If I compare this to the amount of CO2 spawned by a meteor, all these geysers seem useless.

(But I like(d) to build around the "cold" CO2 geyser, just to create an cool storage room and some additional dirt every now and then.)

 

19 minutes ago, Zakery said:

Hot oil - same.

I like the hot oil for my post space exploration petroleum boiler ;)

 

PS: For me the most useless geyser would be the "hot polluted oxygen vent".

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This was mentioned before, but Klei either considers it low priority or pretends it isn't a problem.

Great deal of geysers are just plain worse in every way than their alternatives.

  • Some people pretend that hot steam vent is not much worse than cool steam vent, but it's obviously wrong, since steam power isn't that strong, power is cheap, and producing water is the whole point of the vent (cool produces much more).
  • CO2 geyser produces less CO2 than the oil leak.
  • Capped+hydrolyzed cool steam vent produces much more oxygen than polluted oxygen vent AND produces excess power (or hydrogen).
  • If you choose to produce hydrogen and not power, the capped vent from point above produces more hydrogen than a hydrogen vent.
  • Slush is the meme geyser for a reason. It is the best source of water possible and doesn't have ANY downsides.

Someone just didn't do the math. I hope it's different priorities or at least laziness, not by design.

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1 minute ago, Coolthulhu said:

Some people pretend that hot steam vent is not much worse than cool steam vent, but it's obviously wrong, since steam power isn't that strong, power is cheap, and producing water is the whole point of the vent (cool produces much more).

Sure the output is way less for the hot steam vent, but for me the difference is the needed infrastructure:

  • A hot steam vent is hot enough to be directly used in a steam turbine.
  • The cool steam vent has the be either heated to be used in a turbine or needs to be cooled so you can retrieve the water.

 

4 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:
  • CO2 geyser produces less CO2 than the oil leak.
  • Capped+hydrolyzed cool steam vent produces much more oxygen than polluted oxygen vent AND produces excess power (or hydrogen).
  • If you choose to produce hydrogen and not power, the capped vent from point above produces more hydrogen than a hydrogen vent.

That´s the big things that annoy me ;)

My prefered solution would be just a greater random amplitude, so if I find one of our currently "bad" geysers I can´t be sure if it´s an "usefull" geyser till I have analyzed it.

Spoiler

I am totally ok with bad geysers and "more difficult" maps, but it takes some of the fun if you just uncover a tile of a geyser and decide to not even bother with it. I like the idea of beeing forced to analyze or at least observe the geyser to determine if it´s usefull or not.

 

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I like to put my useless geysers behind double insulated glass walls, so there's at least something to look at for my dupes.

It would be fun if geysers had a gigantic decor value, so it would be worthwhile for dupes to pass by.

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The problem with the geysers is not waht they produce but how much. Hot steam vents are actually useful now with the new turbine but as a water source they are terrible.

CO2 vents are ignorable since they porduce as much as a few dupes and the heat capacity of CO2 is so low you can`t use it for cooling. At a higher amount you could use it for slicksters or skim to polluted water.

Leaky oil vents provide a source of oil outside the oil biome which can be useful when tamed.

Polluted oxygen vents at a higher output would be useful for pufts.

All of them could be useful if they produced a bigger amount.

If you want a truly useless geyser we would need Klei to introduce a hot sulfur vent.

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Actually, I don't consider the pO2 geysers all that useless, just put some deodorizers above it and the hot pO2 becomes much cooler clean O2 and you get clay to boot. It's a good source of clay in that regard.

Yes, you could have gotten a 'better' geyser, but for the amount of work it needs to tame it, it's not too shabby.

While not every geyser type is equal, having a few bad ones isn't that terrible, it wouldn't be fun if there were only 'good' geysers.

 

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1 hour ago, suicide commando said:

Actually, I don't consider the pO2 geysers all that useless, just put some deodorizers above it and the hot pO2 becomes much cooler clean O2 and you get clay to boot. It's a good source of clay in that regard.

Yeah sounds nice, but if you do the math on how effective a PO2 geyser can be:

A perfect pO2 geyser can have an average output of up to 172kg each cycle.

=> 172kg can yield you up to 246,5kg clay each cycle.

But the values above are best case values and the lowest possible ouput would be just 2,1kg clay each cycle ...

 

1 hour ago, suicide commando said:

but for the amount of work it needs to tame it, it's not too shabby.

For me deodorizers are not really a effortless solution:

You could use duplicants to supply filtration medium, which would cost some duplicant time and would require exosuits in the current build of the game or you could invest even more effort in building an automated system using conveyors, which uses even more power ...

=> You need a constant filtration medium and power input.

 

If you compare that to an hot steam which can operate autonomous without any requirements.

(I would consider automating a system to produce filtration medium without player interactions as part of taming a pO2 geyser.)

 

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1 hour ago, suicide commando said:

While not every geyser type is equal, having a few bad ones isn't that terrible, it wouldn't be fun if there were only 'good' geysers.

I would disagree with this in one regard.  If the Geyser isn't useful, it's just flat out not useful.  I'd rather have an extra PoI roll in that spot, which could be a Vacillator or an AETN instead.  The simple fact is that there will, inevitably, be some that are better than others.  But the disparity between, say, the CO2 Vent/Geyser compared to NatGas, is ridiculous.

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Cold CO2 vents are the only ones that you can just straight up ignore the presence of, it can be in the middle of my base with unsuited dupes running around, it has no value and doesn't even work as an obstacle. Certainly can't cool anything with it. The hot vent is a little more dangerous but equally useless.

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I have 3 levels of geysers.

The ones I actively look for like metal volcanoes, cool steam, water, slush, natural gas, and chlorine (I know, it's not necessary but I feel way better when I have a chlorine geyser.) 

The ones that get their own room to do something. Major/minor volcanoes, hot polluted O2, infected polluted water, leaky oil fissures, etc. 

And finally, the ones that get dug up and subsequently ignored due to their rediculouly low output. Both CO2, hydrogen. 

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I don't really see any of them as particularly 'useless.'  Are some more useful than others? Sure.  However, each geyser/vent is useful in its own way.  It requires a slight shift in thinking -- rather than thinking, "I really wish I had X geyser so I could do this," you need to consider "I have X geyser .. what can I do with it?"

Early on, I used to think along the lines of  "I really wish I had X geyser."  I'd have an idea of what I wanted to do in my base and I'd try to find a way to accomplish it.  Inevitably, I'd come to the conclusion that I'd have to start a new map because I had too many 'useless' geysers.

More recently, I've definitely started looking at geysers differently -- and I've found that I can use all of them in some way.  Some take more effort than others -- like my liquid CO2 vent that I turned into a dirt farm.  Cold CO2 removed heat from compost piles, then got turned to polluted water in a carbon skimmer.  The polluted water went into a water sieve, and the polluted dirt into the compost piles.   As a result, my bases have become less 'cookie cutter rebuilds' and more organic.  

I feel somewhat hypocritical writing this at the moment because my current map has some very juicy geysers, so I can't use it as a good example.  Even so, I've found that just changing my perspective on how I play can really influence how I look at the random geysers in any map.

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41 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

More recently, I've definitely started looking at geysers differently -- and I've found that I can use all of them in some way.  Some take more effort than others -- like my liquid CO2 vent that I turned into a dirt farm.  Cold CO2 removed heat from compost piles, then got turned to polluted water in a carbon skimmer.  The polluted water went into a water sieve, and the polluted dirt into the compost piles.   As a result, my bases have become less 'cookie cutter rebuilds' and more organic.  

The CO2 geyser introduces basically no carbon dioxide in to the system.  The best geysers are around 20 g/s, which would net you a whopping 2.6 g/s dirt (assuming no off gassing), or 1.5 kg/cycle dirt.  That is not enough to grow a single sleetwheat plant.  And the temperature effect is negligible due to the mass.  I feel that it won't recoup the food it costs you to build the machine.  And that is literally the best you can hope for.  I wouldn't build anything for it specifically.  However, if it is not inconvenient, I would hook it up to my CO2 vent system to have it travel to the central CO2 processing area (be it a dirt farm or a slickster farm).

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8 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

The CO2 geyser introduces basically no carbon dioxide in to the system.  The best geysers are around 20 g/s, which would net you a whopping 2.6 g/s dirt (assuming no off gassing), or 1.5 kg/cycle dirt.  That is not enough to grow a single sleetwheat plant.  And the temperature effect is negligible due to the mass.  I feel that it won't recoup the food it costs you to build the machine.  And that is literally the best you can hope for.  I wouldn't build anything for it specifically.  However, if it is not inconvenient, I would hook it up to my CO2 vent system to have it travel to the central CO2 processing area (be it a dirt farm or a slickster farm).

1.5kg/cycle of dirt is a decent amount.  Add to it the CO2 from NG and/or petroleum generators, dupe breathing, etc.  You're right that the temperature effect was minimal, but it did have some effect.  I reinstalled my OS in January, so I no longer have the saves from that map.  Anyway, the base was stable when I left it.

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34 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

1.5kg/cycle of dirt is a decent amount.  Add to it the CO2 from NG and/or petroleum generators, dupe breathing, etc.  You're right that the temperature effect was minimal, but it did have some effect.  I reinstalled my OS in January, so I no longer have the saves from that map.  Anyway, the base was stable when I left it.

 

1.5kg/cycle is actually nothing. As mentioned it's less then 1/3 of a single sleet wheat plant, and you can produce FAR larger amounts of dirt in other ways. Adding in other sources of CO2 isn't relevant; you would have them regardless of the existence of the geyser. And CO2 has so little heat capacity that a single wheezewort in hydrogen would do 5-10 times more cooling then that entire geyser even if you heated all the CO that came out by 100-150 degrees before consuming it. Honestly it's a textbook example of just not having enough throughput to be worth it.

Generally I do agree with the sentiment that geysers don't need to be perfectly balanced in usefulness (that would just make every seed basically the same), but yeah, some geysers are just worthless. Even if you try to build to take advantage of them the benefit is so small it's actually not worth the trouble/there are easier ways to do the exact same thing. Hot Steam/Hydrogen/Both CO2 geysers/Leaky Oil and arguably the Hot Polluted Oxygen vent kind of fall into that category, every other type is more or less useful in some way.

Personally I would like to see something like:

-Slush Geysers output cut to about 1/2 or 1/3 of the current (it doesn't really make much sense for it to be one of the best sources of water AND coolant at the same time, so this would at least make it less of a ridiculous standout). They would still be very useful, but tbh nerfing them would probably actually help push people towards learning how to play without them and not relying on them as much as I see a lot of people doing.

-Polluted Water to about 2/3 of the current values (it's not as cold but still at a moderate temp)

-Hydrogen Vents approx doubled, maybe a bit more; it's a hassle to deal with the 500C hydrogen, atm they can't even power a single generator consistently, so it's not actually worth the trouble, but if the output was greater they would be a good source of hydrogen for either power or Liquid Hydrogen rockets if you can deal with the heat and would actually be worth building around.

-Hot Steam output buffed considerably, probably about 5 times. They still wouldn't really produce a lot of water, but enough to actually be noticeable, and they would be a source of 'free' power with a turbine. They would still be a pretty weak geyser, but at least you wouldn't just ignore them outright.

-The CO2 geysers honestly could probably be buffed by 10x and still not be very useful. I'm not really sure why CO2 geysers produce so laughably little, it's like someone left off a zero or two. CO2 is actually useful in a few ways, but it's terrible as coolant (low specific heat/conductivity), and honestly you can produce 500g/s with just a single Petroleum generator, so I'm not sure why geyser values are so low

-Leaky Oil should be producing an average of about 1kg/s+ of hot oil before they would really be useful in practice. Volcanoes would still be way better heat sources, and 1kg/s of oil or petrol isn't really that much in reality, so I don't think this would be crazy (and certainly wouldn't make them anywhere near top tier, but again, the point isn't to make every geyser equal to each other, just to make them all somewhat useful).

-Not sure what to do with Hot Polluted Oxygen. Obviously buffing output would help, but it's such a pain to cool the oxygen to usable levels (since pretty much every application of oxygen is pretty temperature sensitive unlike say Hydrogen which you just need to cool enough to get into the pipes and then consume it), that I'm not sure how it would ever be useful outside of producing truly ridiculous quantities (and even then, why cool super hot oxygen when you can get it at reasonable temperatures in so many other ways)

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For me, better is way is something like "efforts / challenge = profit"

 so - cold slush - low challeng - low effords to use - good profit

volcano - big / mid challenge - mid / big efforts - good profit

leaky oil / hot steam - mid challenge, any efforts = tiny profit

So from my point of view, the best is change this useless ones to add chellenge and effords to tame and give some normal reward.

Maybe set Hydrogen G to more output but extreme hot?

Same for PO2?

 

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Surprised no one has mentioned the Chlorine geyser. (My apologies if someone did and I missed it). It's kind of useless because there's no ongoing demand for chlorine worth pursuing. Hand sanitizers? Rather use a sink. Gassy Moos? Solar panels do pretty much the same thing for less effort. Ore scrubber? Hard to imagine when you'd use one of those.

Chlorine's useful stuff, but only really for chlorine rooms for sterilization. The fixed amount on the map is more than enough.

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17 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Surprised no one has mentioned the Chlorine geyser. (My apologies if someone did and I missed it). It's kind of useless because there's no ongoing demand for chlorine worth pursuing. Hand sanitizers? Rather use a sink. Gassy Moos? Solar panels do pretty much the same thing for less effort. Ore scrubber? Hard to imagine when you'd use one of those.

Chlorine's useful stuff, but only really for chlorine rooms for sterilization. The fixed amount on the map is more than enough.

The thing about chlorine is one of the most common arguments about things that require chlorine is that they aren't very good because of the lack of a guaranteed reliable source of chlorine. 

Ore scrubbers can be nice, especially with the new disease system.  It can be a safeguard to make sure that if the material didn't get stored in chlorine for long enough, it will be germless before it gets in to the base since we don't have a way to stop germy things from entering the base before we get mechatronics.

Hand sanitizers are nice because they don't require piping, allowing you to have clean hands without having to lay water pipes across half the map.  I occasionally use wash basins for the same purpose, but that can't be fed with a auto sweeper.  I use them sometimes in remote areas where I don't want to run pipes, but only if I have a chlorine geyser.

Not having a reliable way to get chlorine makes the buildings that use chlorine bad.  I think the game should go back to having a guaranteed 2 natural gas geysers AND a chlorine geyser.

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I'm kind of hard pressed to see the advantage of the hand sanitizer, since I've never felt the need to sprinkle sinks far away from food poisoning sources (meaning outhouses mainly). The other major germ - so far - is slimelung, and it's not important to wash that off a Dupe's hands, since it's not getting into the air that way.

Hand sanitizers use up a resource. Sinks provide a resource - polluted water, which can be converted to water + dirt, or oxygen + clay (via PO2 -> deoderizers).

Similarly, slimelung on ore is only important if you don't store it in chlorine. It doesn't matter if a dupe picks up germ-covered slime. Slime's only dangerous when it's on the ground or stored, where it can offgass polluted oxygen with slimelung germs.  If you have chlorine storage, that doesn't happen inside your base. It generally only happens out where it's first been mined, before it gets put away. So I don't care about ore scrubbers either.

So, no, I don't want any chlorine geysers on my maps at all. Because there's nothing I want to build that uses chlorine. The machines that consume chlorine aren't bad just because you might not have a renewable source, they're just bad period.

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Reason people don't talk much about chlorine is because you can't really change the geyser itself in any way to fix the problem (more output isn't going to do anything). Also, if one really wanted to make chlorine geysers good, I would probably start by buffing Gassy Moos to be worth the trouble compared to Solar Panels (ie actually strictly better then Solar Panels if you are willing to deal with all the hassle).

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10 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I'm kind of hard pressed to see the advantage of the hand sanitizer

I believe that when touching something with a ridiculous amount of germs (like slime blocks) the sinks don`t remove all the germs while the sanitizer does.

Another advantage is it not needing pipe connections so you can put them in remote areas and just deliver a bit of bleachstone from time to time.

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1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

I believe that when touching something with a ridiculous amount of germs (like slime blocks) the sinks don`t remove all the germs while the sanitizer does.

Another advantage is it not needing pipe connections so you can put them in remote areas and just deliver a bit of bleachstone from time to time.

I've never tested whether sinks have a limit, but why does it matter? Slime germs on Dupe hands don't affect anything, because there's no way for them to transfer to the air.

Which is also why I don't see the point of a sink in a remote area. That only makes sense if there's also a toilet in the remote area, which is the only source of surface germs that matters.

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1 hour ago, Gus Smedstad said:

Slime germs on Dupe hands don't affect anything, because there's no way for them to transfer to the air.

Well they can transfer from their hands to algae or water bottles and through diffusers or terrariums to the air. I can imagine a terrarium as an air source in a remote area needing clean hands so it doesn`t spread slimelung but most of the time you`ll use exosuits and electrolizers elimineting the problem completely.

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2 hours ago, Gus Smedstad said:

I've never tested whether sinks have a limit, but why does it matter?

The amount of germs removed isn´t really affecting anything continuous except:

- A duplicant moving the polluted dirt after cleaning an outhouse can have more germs than a sink can remove.

 

But the biggest benefit of the hand sanitizer in my eyes is the faster animation time ;)

(Faster germ removal is better germ removal^^)

 

Spoiler

Still I don´t use hand sanitizers, since I see the polluted water a sink is producing as a benefit.^^

 

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